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Those 100+ conscripts are pretty much just the same models. I'd also expect the OS-equivalent when their codex comes out, but it's true they lack it now.

I expect the OS to be reserved for the elite armies.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Stormtalons: Twin-Assault Cannons and Typhoon Frag missiles.
Landspeeders: Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers.
Devs: Heavy Bolters or ML Frag missiles.
Razorbacks: Twin Assault Cannons, or Twin Heavy Flamers.
Scout snipers for the character buffing the horde.

Really not having trouble with hordes or infantry in general over here.

None of those are efficient enough atm.

How are you calculating efficency?

First of all, i would consider conscripts as 4 points models, because at this point it is pretty much a given.

Secondly, a long range unit must be able to take out it's points worth in 3 turns, so it must inflct at least of third of it's point cost in one round of shooting. A short range need to do that in 2 turns, while a suicide unit needs to inflict at least 80% of it's worth in that single turn. This may change if we are talking about a glass cannon or a durable platform like a riptide.

I think conscripts need tweaks maybe to limit orders but other than that the meta isn't hordes. Because after brim and razorspam nerfs hordes alone don't win games. You need firepower to compliment horde durability. And I hope gw does a slight nerf to conscripts like they did with brims so that conscripts are still viable and wanted. Especially for guard/orks/tyranids; which are historically horde lists I like to see varied lists with multiple types of units that reduces spam.

Twin Asscan Razorbacks earn their points back against Conscripts easily enough. Put them in range of Girlyman and then you are liquifying entire units in a turn. A asscan Razorback his about 11times with girlyman, wounds about 10times and kills about 8-9 conscripts a turn. At 4pts each thats 32-36pts of dead conscripts a turn. Conversely you can always just ignore the conscripts, use snipers to kill the commissar and then watch them run away. OR just ignore the conscripts completely and use long range anti-tank weapons to feth up the enemies tanks which is the only damaging units they have. A predator annihilator with girlyman nearby can just about kill an enemy tank a turn by itself. waste a command point on turn 1 to get a good damage roll and poof you have drastically hurt them turn 1.

I think the reason conscripts do so well is that people are actually trying to kill them and that's their mistake.

They're job is to maybe score objectives and tie things up, so shooting at them is a waste.

They also do a good job bubblewrapping artillery and keeping things like MM's and Asscans off of Manticores and Bassys.

You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

100 conscripts are not an horde, and not a problem to deal with. 200+ of them can become a problem.

Ravenspam is gone but taking 1-2 of those nasty flyers is still possible and even TAC since you may want them anyway, regardless of the presence of the conscripts.

A stormraven, 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons and guilliman are pretty much TAC and can screw conscripts quite easily. The key is to get first turn, or plasma scions will melt the vehicles. But AM lists can't have only a few drops if they spam conscripts+commissars+scions plus other stuff so it shouldn't be a problem.

I actually hope that GW nerfs conscripts so that when the IG players just take normal squads and only have 10 fewer models on the board, which really will not affect how the army behaves people can just stop mindlessly complaining.

The thing that people do not appreciate is that conscripts are just one point cheaper than a normal IG, so 50 conscripts cost you 50 fewer points than normal IG, which comes out to be 12.5 normal IG. So instead of 50 models the IG player will have 38 for the same 150 points. The IG player *might* need to spend an extra 30 points on another commissar since the squads will be spread out a bit.

I'm working under the assumption that Conscripts will be nerfed and just painting up a bunch of normal 10 man squads (well 9 with a heavy weapon), their BS is better, they can take special and heavy weapons, and they are still dirt cheap so I will still have upwards of 70 infantry on the board for around 500 points.

The whole freaking out about conscripts confuses me as they are not dominating the tournament scene and frankly I don't really even think they're a better choice than taking normal infantry squads that can have plasma guns and lascannons.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

You can't ignore them, but if they are spread that far out then the chances are that the commissars are exposed, and if they are they die and then the conscripts run away. If they are spread out and somehow you aren't able to kill the commissar...assault them. new SM codex gives OBSEC to Marine infantry so you win the draw every time. failing that you can always rely on those asscan Razorbacks and other abilities to nuke the heck out of those conscripts.

Personally I would love to play conscript spam. 30 Boyz Conscripts put out 120 attacks, 80 hits and about 56-57 wounds If I have ghaz, a weirdboy or the banner nob nearby its even more ridiculous. I'll wipe out that horde in a heart beat and be able to consolidate into more CC

SemperMortis wrote:
Twin Asscan Razorbacks earn their points back against Conscripts easily enough. Put them in range of Girlyman and then you are liquifying entire units in a turn. A asscan Razorback his about 11times with girlyman, wounds about 10times and kills about 8-9 conscripts a turn. At 4pts each thats 32-36pts of dead conscripts a turn. Conversely you can always just ignore the conscripts, use snipers to kill the commissar and then watch them run away. OR just ignore the conscripts completely and use long range anti-tank weapons to feth up the enemies tanks which is the only damaging units they have. A predator annihilator with girlyman nearby can just about kill an enemy tank a turn by itself. waste a command point on turn 1 to get a good damage roll and poof you have drastically hurt them turn 1.

I agree on that, Conscripts are just tooooo weak individually so that they can only rely on their numbers to do something. The "horde" I really fear about is Genestealers type things, for example 3 units of 20 strong Genestealer. They are much more durable than conscripts, each one pack a much more significant punch if they get into combat. They are stunningly fast so generally if you can't take them down in one round of shooting, you will get torn to pieces by them, compare to slow movement of 50 blob Conscripts. When properly buffed by Malanthrope and Broodlords or Flyrants' psychic power, they are quite hard to take down in this edition and are even more threathening.

I did some analysis in this post yesterday. There are not that many choices can reduce their threat in time. Of course, had I missed something in that analysis, welcome any dakkanuts to supplement me or comment me.

Spoletta wrote:
How are you calculating efficency?

First of all, i would consider conscripts as 4 points models, because at this point it is pretty much a given.

Therefore that's intellectual dishonesty. That's not what they are right now.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Twin Asscan Razorbacks earn their points back against Conscripts easily enough. Put them in range of Girlyman and then you are liquifying entire units in a turn. A asscan Razorback his about 11times with girlyman, wounds about 10times and kills about 8-9 conscripts a turn. At 4pts each thats 32-36pts of dead conscripts a turn. Conversely you can always just ignore the conscripts, use snipers to kill the commissar and then watch them run away. OR just ignore the conscripts completely and use long range anti-tank weapons to feth up the enemies tanks which is the only damaging units they have. A predator annihilator with girlyman nearby can just about kill an enemy tank a turn by itself. waste a command point on turn 1 to get a good damage roll and poof you have drastically hurt them turn 1.

I agree on that, Conscripts are just tooooo weak individually so that they can only rely on their numbers to do something. The "horde" I really fear about is Genestealers type things, for example 3 units of 20 strong Genestealer. They are much more durable than conscripts, each one pack a much more significant punch if they get into combat. They are stunningly fast so generally if you can't take them down in one round of shooting, you will get torn to pieces by them, compare to slow movement of 50 blob Conscripts. When properly buffed by Malanthrope and Broodlords or Flyrants' psychic power, they are quite hard to take down in this edition and are even more threathening.

I did some analysis in this post yesterday. There are not that many choices can reduce their threat in time. Of course, had I missed something in that analysis, welcome any dakkanuts to supplement me or comment me.

The catch there is that 'nids don't have long range threaths, so you don't need to be point efficent in removing stealers, you just need to be able to do so. Also, you don't need to remove the units, you just have to bring them below 12 models. 11 Stealers that make the charge take out 7 MEQ, if they don't take casualties from overwatch, That is before evaporating the next turn due to rapid firing bolters, which is not such a good deal out of a 240 point unit supported by many characters. Also, aggressors make them cry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
How are you calculating efficency?

First of all, i would consider conscripts as 4 points models, because at this point it is pretty much a given.

Therefore that's intellectual dishonesty. That's not what they are right now.

Conscripts are undercosted, that is something that we know.If you try to find the unit efficency at removing hordes while using a faulted meter, you will get faulty math.

Conscripts aren't undercosted at all. At most they need to have some of the synergy they have with IG characters nerfed.

And it's hilarious you use "faulty math" accusation, given the horrendous math used by the "CONSCRIPTS SHOULD BE NERFED TO USELESSNESS" crowd.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

It sounds like the same problem the Green Tide used to have. er. I mean My green tide would have been assaulted from two ends to tie me up and keep me from doing anything. So to me it seems a strong assault in the center should both kill conscripts and pull them off of objectives. I think the problem with that would be how many layers of conscripts they're are and how many point would have to be dedicated to that assault worth the ordeal. I'd try to throw everything I could into all of it all in one go. Just to see what would happen.

 warhead01 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

It sounds like the same problem the Green Tide used to have. er. I mean My green tide would have been assaulted from two ends to tie me up and keep me from doing anything. So to me it seems a strong assault in the center should both kill conscripts and pull them off of objectives. I think the problem with that would be how many layers of conscripts they're are and how many point would have to be dedicated to that assault worth the ordeal. I'd try to throw everything I could into all of it all in one go. Just to see what would happen.

Ironically, if you assault the conscripts you actually pull them away from the commissars bubble as well because they have to move closer to the combat conversely, once you assault conscripts they really start to melt away because they can't do much without that lasgun.

Conscripts, just like green tide, are gimmicky and easy to beat once you figure out the trick. The trick to green tide is exactly what you mentioned. the trick to Conscripts is similar and then whenever you get the chance snipe the commissar and laugh as your opponent has to pickup 80+ models that died to morale

Conscripts are not the real problem, IMHO there are two major problems with current IG:

1. Completely ignoring morale, the Commissar aura needs a nerf

2. Indirect fire artillery, being able to hit something without being able to see it from the other side of the table behind a swarm of conscripts is ridiculous.

My suggestions would be assigned numbers to the Commissar aura rather than a flat "auto succeed", e.g. the Commissar executes one model and you gain a +5 to your Leadership for that roll. For small squads it's effectively the same, but for large hordes it doesn't scale stupidly.

For artillery I would suggest a nerf to Ballistic Skill if you don't have LoS, perhaps: -1 if you don't have LoS but there is another IG unit that does have LoS (to represent a spotter) and -2 to BS if nothing in your army has LoS.

SemperMortis wrote:

 warhead01 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have a choice if they physically occupy 4/6 objectives. You can't ignore them.

It sounds like the same problem the Green Tide used to have. er. I mean My green tide would have been assaulted from two ends to tie me up and keep me from doing anything. So to me it seems a strong assault in the center should both kill conscripts and pull them off of objectives. I think the problem with that would be how many layers of conscripts they're are and how many point would have to be dedicated to that assault worth the ordeal. I'd try to throw everything I could into all of it all in one go. Just to see what would happen.

Ironically, if you assault the conscripts you actually pull them away from the commissars bubble as well because they have to move closer to the combat conversely, once you assault conscripts they really start to melt away because they can't do much without that lasgun.

Conscripts, just like green tide, are gimmicky and easy to beat once you figure out the trick. The trick to green tide is exactly what you mentioned. the trick to Conscripts is similar and then whenever you get the chance snipe the commissar and laugh as your opponent has to pickup 80+ models that died to morale

I haven't seen them yet in 8th. I've read about them haha. So I've only come up with a few things. Assaulting them for sure but what to do about that Commissar. Now I'm working over how to isolate and assault him. Can it be done. I think it can as long as there's space to fit models. Have to assault as few Conscript units as is necessary and probably use Stormboys to go over the top to assault him. Won't be easy to pull off.
The Conscript problem has me looking at Scorchas (The ones on the Wartrakks) as probably a good part of the plan. Probably Burna boys and Nobz as well. It'll be key to pull the conscripts out of screening position with the assault. Some good luck wouldn't hurt either.

My suggestions would be assigned numbers to the Commissar aura rather than a flat "auto succeed", e.g. the Commissar executes one model and you gain a +5 to your Leadership for that roll. For small squads it's effectively the same, but for large hordes it doesn't scale stupidly.

+5 to ld would be nearly meaningless. If they lost 19 or 20 models in one go what's +5 really going to do for them. I'm saying that because even Orks with their "mighty" LD30, it's still only so good. I've lost 14 or more models in a turn and well, thank goodness for command points.

Orkz are about the only faction that doesn't care about conscript blobs. Orkz are happiest fighting against giant blobs of cheap disposable infantry because it keeps us safe from shooting for a turn usually and we have enough choppiness in CC that will cut down that blob no problem.

Again: 30 boyz = 120 attacks, 80 hits, 55ish wounds and 40-45 dead models If you are really worried about the blob survive, just add a weirdboy with warpath or Ghaz, or maybe the Banner nob. Poof, problem solved. Next turn its on to the tanks.

Conscripts' shooting is extremely effective against orks though, their overwatch can cripple a 30 man blob. Keep in mind than with green tides you don't even have the vehicles to eat overwatch. But at least plasma scions would be completely useless. So I agree, orks green tides can have a fair game against AM lists with hordes of conscripts even if IMHO AM is still superior.

Another conscript thread where people assume that the anti-infantry options that are currently available are good enough without showing how they are good enough.

 Flood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Stormtalons: Twin-Assault Cannons and Typhoon Frag missiles.
Landspeeders: Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers.
Devs: Heavy Bolters or ML Frag missiles.
Razorbacks: Twin Assault Cannons, or Twin Heavy Flamers.
Scout snipers for the character buffing the horde.

Really not having trouble with hordes or infantry in general over here.

None of these are good enough vs conscripts. Too inefficient.

As for objectives, obsec etc, how are you avoiding getting tabled by turn 5? The vast majority of games end that way in my experience and as far as I have seen on forums. The only games that generally end normally are horde armies vs horde armies, and that brings us back to the opening post.

 Blackie wrote:
Conscripts' shooting is extremely effective against orks though, their overwatch can cripple a 30 man blob. Keep in mind than with green tides you don't even have the vehicles to eat overwatch. But at least plasma scions would be completely useless. So I agree, orks green tides can have a fair game against AM lists with hordes of conscripts even if IMHO AM is still superior.

On the off chance all 50 are in range. 100 shots hitting on 6s = 17ish hits. wounding on 5s = 5 wounds, against a 6+ and a 6+ FNP Thats about 4 wounds. Don't get me wrong, if they get a chance to shoot at you with full BS..that WILL decimate your forces. (100 shots hitting on 4s = 50 hits, wounding on 5s = about 17 wounds VS 6+ and 6+ FNP = 13ish wounds.

So like I said, Ork Horde armies are the one army that really doesn't care about conscripts

sossen wrote:
Another conscript thread where people assume that the anti-infantry options that are currently available are good enough without showing how they are good enough.

 Flood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have essentially zero non-stormraven options against conscripts. That's why I fear hordes. The other hordes are more manageable.

Stormtalons: Twin-Assault Cannons and Typhoon Frag missiles.
Landspeeders: Assault Cannons, Heavy Flamers.
Devs: Heavy Bolters or ML Frag missiles.
Razorbacks: Twin Assault Cannons, or Twin Heavy Flamers.
Scout snipers for the character buffing the horde.

Really not having trouble with hordes or infantry in general over here.

None of these are good enough vs conscripts. Too inefficient.

As for objectives, obsec etc, how are you avoiding getting tabled by turn 5? The vast majority of games end that way in my experience and as far as I have seen on forums. The only games that generally end normally are horde armies vs horde armies, and that brings us back to the opening post.

Leviathan Dreadnought with twin Grav Bombard. Deletes a 31 out of a 50 man blob/turn worth of conscripts for about 300 points and then can turn its 2D3 str 9 ap -5 DMG 5 guns on vehicles afterward. All while rocking a 2+/4++ T8 14 wounds.

Edit: Math was wrong, should delete 31/50 every turn. But if stray bolter fire cant mop up after that, I don't know what to say.

Edit 2: Add a captain/lieutenant or other source of rerolls, and the number goes to 35-41 dead conscripts/turn.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Conscripts' shooting is extremely effective against orks though, their overwatch can cripple a 30 man blob. Keep in mind than with green tides you don't even have the vehicles to eat overwatch. But at least plasma scions would be completely useless. So I agree, orks green tides can have a fair game against AM lists with hordes of conscripts even if IMHO AM is still superior.

On the off chance all 50 are in range. 100 shots hitting on 6s = 17ish hits. wounding on 5s = 5 wounds, against a 6+ and a 6+ FNP Thats about 4 wounds. Don't get me wrong, if they get a chance to shoot at you with full BS..that WILL decimate your forces. (100 shots hitting on 4s = 50 hits, wounding on 5s = about 17 wounds VS 6+ and 6+ FNP = 13ish wounds.

So like I said, Ork Horde armies are the one army that really doesn't care about conscripts

4 wounds in overwatch correct, but this is average, they can easily become 5-6. And maybe with those 4 casualties orks may have a longer charge distance that can be failed. Unless you teleport them by da jump (and in that case they should success a 9'' charge, which is not that easy) the boyz will get a lot of firepower before reaching the AM lines.

Conscripts can take advantage of orders which make their weapons rapid fire 2. 50 conscripts can throw 200 S3 shots in rapid fire range, but many lists have 200+ of those cheap bodies, which means 800+ shots potentially, and even half of them are an excellent anti infantry tool, plus the other 2/3 of the list. If you charge a blob of conscripts your mob will receive all the firepower in the world in the subsequent turn, including the contribution of the fleeing unit that can shoot as well. Hordes of boyz can do quite good against those guardsmen but like I said it's not easy to win against them.

Green tides lists are 180 boyz plus characters tipycally, with nothing to clear hordes at distance or to kill tanks/artillery. 200 conscripts plus 2 commissars are only 660 points of stuff (basically as much as 3x30 boyz and a weirdboy), if they have some anti infantry tanks and artilley, and they likely do have some of those toyz, they can decimate a lot of boyz from distance.

My 2000pt list contains 180 poxwalkers, I love anything that is basically a Zombie. With typhus it makes then a little harder to kill. I'm not looking to annoy people with them just come up with some scenarios where it's a fun and good game.

 Blackie wrote:


Conscripts can take advantage of orders which make their weapons rapid fire 2. 50 conscripts can throw 200 S3 shots in rapid fire range, but many lists have 200+ of those cheap bodies, which means 800+ shots potentially, and even half of them are an excellent anti infantry tool, plus the other 2/3 of the list. If you charge a blob of conscripts your mob will receive all the firepower in the world in the subsequent turn, including the contribution of the fleeing unit that can shoot as well. Hordes of boyz can do quite good against those guardsmen but like I said it's not easy to win against them.

Would people stop parroting this hypothetical mathhammer nonsense like it happens every game? Out of over 20 games with guard, I have gotten the full FRFSRF on a THIRTY man squad TWICE. Both on units that deep striked and failed their charge rolls. It is ridiculously impractical getting all 50 in range and LOS and at full strength. The only way to do it reliably would be to run them in WHFB style trays at which point they're not screening, which is the whole point of bringing them in the first place.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Conscripts can take advantage of orders which make their weapons rapid fire 2. 50 conscripts can throw 200 S3 shots in rapid fire range, but many lists have 200+ of those cheap bodies, which means 800+ shots potentially, and even half of them are an excellent anti infantry tool, plus the other 2/3 of the list. If you charge a blob of conscripts your mob will receive all the firepower in the world in the subsequent turn, including the contribution of the fleeing unit that can shoot as well. Hordes of boyz can do quite good against those guardsmen but like I said it's not easy to win against them.

Would people stop parroting this hypothetical mathhammer nonsense like it happens every game? Out of over 20 games with guard, I have gotten the full FRFSRF on a THIRTY man squad TWICE. Both on units that deep striked and failed their charge rolls. It is ridiculously impractical getting all 50 in range and LOS and at full strength. The only way to do it reliably would be to run them in WHFB style trays at which point they're not screening, which is the whole point of bringing them in the first place.

K, but how hard is it to get orders to conscripts? And even if you only get half in range its still a huge benefit, it literally doubles their dakka.

 Blackie wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Conscripts' shooting is extremely effective against orks though, their overwatch can cripple a 30 man blob. Keep in mind than with green tides you don't even have the vehicles to eat overwatch. But at least plasma scions would be completely useless. So I agree, orks green tides can have a fair game against AM lists with hordes of conscripts even if IMHO AM is still superior.

On the off chance all 50 are in range. 100 shots hitting on 6s = 17ish hits. wounding on 5s = 5 wounds, against a 6+ and a 6+ FNP Thats about 4 wounds. Don't get me wrong, if they get a chance to shoot at you with full BS..that WILL decimate your forces. (100 shots hitting on 4s = 50 hits, wounding on 5s = about 17 wounds VS 6+ and 6+ FNP = 13ish wounds.

So like I said, Ork Horde armies are the one army that really doesn't care about conscripts

4 wounds in overwatch correct, but this is average, they can easily become 5-6. And maybe with those 4 casualties orks may have a longer charge distance that can be failed. Unless you teleport them by da jump (and in that case they should success a 9'' charge, which is not that easy) the boyz will get a lot of firepower before reaching the AM lines.

Conscripts can take advantage of orders which make their weapons rapid fire 2. 50 conscripts can throw 200 S3 shots in rapid fire range, but many lists have 200+ of those cheap bodies, which means 800+ shots potentially, and even half of them are an excellent anti infantry tool, plus the other 2/3 of the list. If you charge a blob of conscripts your mob will receive all the firepower in the world in the subsequent turn, including the contribution of the fleeing unit that can shoot as well. Hordes of boyz can do quite good against those guardsmen but like I said it's not easy to win against them.

Green tides lists are 180 boyz plus characters tipycally, with nothing to clear hordes at distance or to kill tanks/artillery. 200 conscripts plus 2 commissars are only 660 points of stuff (basically as much as 3x30 boyz and a weirdboy), if they have some anti infantry tanks and artilley, and they likely do have some of those toyz, they can decimate a lot of boyz from distance.

First of all, wound allocation means overwatch will never result in a longer charge unless you remove the entire unit. They can simply remove boyz from the back.

Secondly, with Waagh, you won't get close enough to rapid fire lasguns into boyz outside of overwatch unless the ork player plays like an idiot.

Your best chance at doing what you described is if stagger multiple blobs of conscripts, sacrificing the front blob so that the second blob can unload. Then a second mob of boyz wipes that blob.... Then a third blob of conscripts wipes that mob... etc. It all comes down to positioning, smart play and some luck. Which honestly is a good thing.

But the thread is about horde vs non-horde. Non-horde doesn't have the numbers to trade blows like that and win. That's why horde is doing well. 8th edition is a very deadly game where having the initiative means everything (ironic since the initiative stat is gone)