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Spinner wrote:Guard can toss people out of Valkyries; probably not the world's best plan unless they're Bullgryn, but it's an option!
Cothonian wrote:Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
I´m afraid but you all seem to have missed the last sentence of the Valkyrie grave-chute insertion rule. You have to setup your soon-to-be-casualties more than 9" away from enemy models. So unless Forgeworld models bring a special rule, AM has no way to setup drop troops closer than 9" to enemy models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 05:46:19
Spinner wrote:Guard can toss people out of Valkyries; probably not the world's best plan unless they're Bullgryn, but it's an option!
Cothonian wrote:Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
I´m afraid but you all seem to have missed the last sentence of the Valkyrie grave-chute insertion rule. You have to setup your soon-to-be-casualties more than 9" away from enemy models. So unless Forgeworld models bring a special rule, AM has no way to setup drop troops closer than 9" to enemy models.
9" is within range to attempt a charge. It's the same potential Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, and the rest have.
I never said they were good at it, only that they could.
From what I've seen almost everybody can, but the factions to whom it is reliable and useful are: Tyranids, Sisters, Orks, and maybe Necrons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 05:59:21
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Marmatag wrote: There is some truth to what he's saying, just not with that level of hyperbole. Alpha strikes, via deep strike, don't work on Astra gunlines.
This doesn't apply to armies, like Sisters, who can race across the field, and are equipped with anti-horde weaponry. There's a reason that in ITC rankings, Sisters are one of the highest rated armies, along with Astra Millitarum / Guard.
Saying alpha strikes work, because they work for you, is like saying Black Mambas pose 0 danger, because they are in Africa, and you are not.
Warp Talons cannot be over watched, so if you drop them in with a sorcerer, warp time them in, they cannot be shot at. If you're fighting an army like Guard, I would spread them out and try to drag as many units into CC as possible. You don't want to kill all your opponents troops in your CC phase and find yourself open to enemy fire.
Spinner wrote:Guard can toss people out of Valkyries; probably not the world's best plan unless they're Bullgryn, but it's an option!
Cothonian wrote:Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
I´m afraid but you all seem to have missed the last sentence of the Valkyrie grave-chute insertion rule. You have to setup your soon-to-be-casualties more than 9" away from enemy models. So unless Forgeworld models bring a special rule, AM has no way to setup drop troops closer than 9" to enemy models.
No, in fact, we have not. YOU seem to have missed that grav chute insertion is a disembark, not a 'deep strike', and that models can move normally after disembarking.
Marmatag wrote: There is some truth to what he's saying, just not with that level of hyperbole. Alpha strikes, via deep strike, don't work on Astra gunlines.
This doesn't apply to armies, like Sisters, who can race across the field, and are equipped with anti-horde weaponry. There's a reason that in ITC rankings, Sisters are one of the highest rated armies, along with Astra Millitarum / Guard.
Saying alpha strikes work, because they work for you, is like saying Black Mambas pose 0 danger, because they are in Africa, and you are not.
This is true to some extent, but I don't see the point of it really.
Alpha strikes sometime work and sometimes don't is a statement I would agree with.
Alpha strikes never work ever because of fallback is a statement I do not agree with, because it is very badly wrong (as most overgeneralizations are).
He's also flat out wrong, anyway.
Alpha strikes work great against an Imperial Guard gunline, and I'd say are one of the better plans to deal with it.
Here's something to keep in mind: IG units are specialized. Specialization makes them more points efficient, but it is a major vulnerability, particularly to alpha-strike lists. You can exploit this vulnerability to your advantage by destroying key elements and rendering the rest impotent. To this end, I also recommend building lists that present a single target profile but field a diverse assortment of weapons, with a higher emphasis on antitank than anti-infantry. The IG threat is in their tanks, and if their tanks are crippled, then the Conscripts can be destroyed at your leisure. In addition, remember that IG tanks are effectively half as resilient as they sound. Once they degrade, they generally cease to be a meaningful threat. A Rhino only needs to be functional for a single turn, and a Predator retains combat effectiveness after it's first degradation step. However, once it's hitting on 5+'s, IG tanks generally cease to be a meaningful threat, which is only compounded by their low damage characteristic. As a rule, it's better to saturate your list with tanks, because most good IGAT weapons have a moderate number of shots but fairly low damage, making them also effective against heavy infantry and not completely worthless against medium and light infantry, but most IG anti-infantry weapons are impotent against tanks.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Right. That's a special rule of the Valkyrie, not a piece of wargaer like on the Reiver.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Spinner wrote:Guard can toss people out of Valkyries; probably not the world's best plan unless they're Bullgryn, but it's an option!
Cothonian wrote:Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
I´m afraid but you all seem to have missed the last sentence of the Valkyrie grave-chute insertion rule. You have to setup your soon-to-be-casualties more than 9" away from enemy models. So unless Forgeworld models bring a special rule, AM has no way to setup drop troops closer than 9" to enemy models.
9" is within range to attempt a charge. It's the same potential Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, and the rest have.
I never said they were good at it, only that they could.
From what I've seen almost everybody can, but the factions to whom it is reliable and useful are: Tyranids, Sisters, Orks, and maybe Necrons.
You have to set up 9", but then you get your full move again. Its actually better than most other armies, it just comes with expensive Valkyrie.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 06:36:13
Spinner wrote:Guard can toss people out of Valkyries; probably not the world's best plan unless they're Bullgryn, but it's an option!
Cothonian wrote:Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
I´m afraid but you all seem to have missed the last sentence of the Valkyrie grave-chute insertion rule. You have to setup your soon-to-be-casualties more than 9" away from enemy models. So unless Forgeworld models bring a special rule, AM has no way to setup drop troops closer than 9" to enemy models.
No, in fact, we have not. YOU seem to have missed that grav chute insertion is a disembark, not a 'deep strike', and that models can move normally after disembarking.
I'm not actually sure about that.
If IG can move afterwords, it's not from the disembark clause, because Drop Pods and Tyrannocytes share the same wording. If IG can move afterwords, it's from the fact it doesn't happen at the end of the movement phase. I'm inclined to believe they can't get closer.
However, 9" is still close enough to charge, and if it's just one unit, a CP can offset some of the risk.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Spinner wrote:Guard can toss people out of Valkyries; probably not the world's best plan unless they're Bullgryn, but it's an option!
Cothonian wrote:Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
I´m afraid but you all seem to have missed the last sentence of the Valkyrie grave-chute insertion rule. You have to setup your soon-to-be-casualties more than 9" away from enemy models. So unless Forgeworld models bring a special rule, AM has no way to setup drop troops closer than 9" to enemy models.
No, in fact, we have not. YOU seem to have missed that grav chute insertion is a disembark, not a 'deep strike', and that models can move normally after disembarking.
I'm not actually sure about that.
If IG can move afterwords, it's not from the disembark clause, because Drop Pods and Tyrannocytes share the same wording. If IG can move afterwords, it's from the fact it doesn't happen at the end of the movement phase. I'm inclined to believe they can't get closer.
However, 9" is still close enough to charge, and if it's just one unit, a CP can offset some of the risk.
No, drop pod is different. Drop pod assault happens "at the end of any of your movement phases", so you've missed the opportunity to move with the unit inside.
Valkyrie's grav chute deployment is completely different. Its just a special type of disembark.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/11 06:37:25
Spinner wrote:Guard can toss people out of Valkyries; probably not the world's best plan unless they're Bullgryn, but it's an option!
Cothonian wrote:Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
I´m afraid but you all seem to have missed the last sentence of the Valkyrie grave-chute insertion rule. You have to setup your soon-to-be-casualties more than 9" away from enemy models. So unless Forgeworld models bring a special rule, AM has no way to setup drop troops closer than 9" to enemy models.
No, in fact, we have not. YOU seem to have missed that grav chute insertion is a disembark, not a 'deep strike', and that models can move normally after disembarking.
I'm not actually sure about that.
If IG can move afterwords, it's not from the disembark clause, because Drop Pods and Tyrannocytes share the same wording. If IG can move afterwords, it's from the fact it doesn't happen at the end of the movement phase. I'm inclined to believe they can't get closer.
However, 9" is still close enough to charge, and if it's just one unit, a CP can offset some of the risk.
No, drop pod is different. Drop pod assault happens "at the end of any of your movement phases", so you've missed the opportunity to move with the unit inside.
I agree. It's not the "Disembark" clause that gives them the additional option to move, it's the fact that it happens during the Valkyrie's movement.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Karhedron wrote: The question you have to ask is, what can you achieve with a T1 assault?
Melee causes less disruption in 8th than it did in 7th as units can just withdraw. If you assault with a handful of units, the enemy will likely withdraw from combat and the rest of their army will then shoot your attackers while they are unsupported.
There tends to be more and higher AP values in melee and a slightly higher average dmg especially on the units that want to be in melee. Shooting is still good but melee is brutal now.
That being said. Turn 1 assaults are not the go to thing. I would rather hang onto my deepstrikers and hit turn 2 and 3 after you spread yourself out and opened up vulnerabilities to exploit.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Marmatag wrote: When you look at a jump pack - it's 3 points per model for deep strike and +6" move, which is pretty solid.
And you gain the Fly keyword which allows you to withdraw from combat and still shoot. I think that Marines with Jump Packs are better loaded up for fire support rather than hoping you get a charge.
Blood Angels probably do this best with JP Company Veterans. Chuck 4 plasma/melta guns on the squad and a Thunder Hammer on the sergeant. Drop in 9" from a target and do your best to fry it. After the shooting, you can always try and charge and if you manage to roll 9+, that is a bonus. If not, you still got your shooting damage in.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravingbantha wrote: Warp Talons cannot be over watched, so if you drop them in with a sorcerer, warp time them in, they cannot be shot at. If you're fighting an army like Guard, I would spread them out and try to drag as many units into CC as possible. You don't want to kill all your opponents troops in your CC phase and find yourself open to enemy fire.
Pretty sure that does not work. Warp Time says that models move "As if it were its Movement phase".
P177 of the main rulebook says this about reinforcements: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive"
A unit that Drops in cannot move in the Movement phase. Warp Time says models move as if it was the movement phase but it is still the same turn. Therefore Warp Time does not work on a unit that has just dropped in since there is nothing in the power that overrides the restriction on Deep Striking models not moving during their moevment phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 08:48:45
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
Spinner wrote:Guard can toss people out of Valkyries; probably not the world's best plan unless they're Bullgryn, but it's an option!
Cothonian wrote:Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
I´m afraid but you all seem to have missed the last sentence of the Valkyrie grave-chute insertion rule. You have to setup your soon-to-be-casualties more than 9" away from enemy models. So unless Forgeworld models bring a special rule, AM has no way to setup drop troops closer than 9" to enemy models.
No, in fact, we have not. YOU seem to have missed that grav chute insertion is a disembark, not a 'deep strike', and that models can move normally after disembarking.
I'm not actually sure about that.
If IG can move afterwords, it's not from the disembark clause, because Drop Pods and Tyrannocytes share the same wording. If IG can move afterwords, it's from the fact it doesn't happen at the end of the movement phase. I'm inclined to believe they can't get closer.
However, 9" is still close enough to charge, and if it's just one unit, a CP can offset some of the risk.
No, drop pod is different. Drop pod assault happens "at the end of any of your movement phases", so you've missed the opportunity to move with the unit inside.
I agree. It's not the "Disembark" clause that gives them the additional option to move, it's the fact that it happens during the Valkyrie's movement.
The Valkyrie is a transport and clearly says so - it has the keyword and the transport rule on its datasheet. The troops deploying by grav chute actually have to be embarked and run the usual risks of embarked units. Grav chute deployment is simply a special form of disembark that allows it to happen even if the Valkyrie moves, with the additional restriction of having to be 9" away from enemies. This doesn't mean that embarked units cannot choose to disembark normally instead, before the Valkyrie moves, without the 9" restriction. In both cases, the disembarked units can move because the transport rule say so.
eldritchx wrote: The Valkyrie is a transport and clearly says so - it has the keyword and the transport rule on its datasheet. The troops deploying by grav chute actually have to be embarked and run the usual risks of embarked units. Grav chute deployment is simply a special form of disembark that allows it to happen even if the Valkyrie moves, with the additional restriction of having to be 9" away from enemies. This doesn't mean that embarked units cannot choose to disembark normally instead, before the Valkyrie moves, without the 9" restriction. In both cases, the disembarked units can move because the transport rule say so.
Agreed. There is nothing in the Grav-chute Insertion rule that restricts further movement. It does not share the restrictions of "Reinforcements", because that rule does not apply. It just happens to have the same 9" range restriction.
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
Spinner wrote:Guard can toss people out of Valkyries; probably not the world's best plan unless they're Bullgryn, but it's an option!
Cothonian wrote:Another way Guard can enter into turn one assault is using Valkyries to air drop units. It's funny when your opponent suddenly has a group of Ogryns to deal with.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Imperial Guard, via Valkyrie Grav Chute Insertion
I´m afraid but you all seem to have missed the last sentence of the Valkyrie grave-chute insertion rule. You have to setup your soon-to-be-casualties more than 9" away from enemy models. So unless Forgeworld models bring a special rule, AM has no way to setup drop troops closer than 9" to enemy models.
No, in fact, we have not. YOU seem to have missed that grav chute insertion is a disembark, not a 'deep strike', and that models can move normally after disembarking.
I'm not actually sure about that.
If IG can move afterwords, it's not from the disembark clause, because Drop Pods and Tyrannocytes share the same wording. If IG can move afterwords, it's from the fact it doesn't happen at the end of the movement phase. I'm inclined to believe they can't get closer.
However, 9" is still close enough to charge, and if it's just one unit, a CP can offset some of the risk.
No, drop pod is different. Drop pod assault happens "at the end of any of your movement phases", so you've missed the opportunity to move with the unit inside.
I agree. It's not the "Disembark" clause that gives them the additional option to move, it's the fact that it happens during the Valkyrie's movement.
The Valkyrie is a transport and clearly says so - it has the keyword and the transport rule on its datasheet. The troops deploying by grav chute actually have to be embarked and run the usual risks of embarked units. Grav chute deployment is simply a special form of disembark that allows it to happen even if the Valkyrie moves, with the additional restriction of having to be 9" away from enemies. This doesn't mean that embarked units cannot choose to disembark normally instead, before the Valkyrie moves, without the 9" restriction. In both cases, the disembarked units can move because the transport rule say so.
While further argument belongs in YMDC, Drop Pods and Tyrannocytes are also Disembarkation actions ["any models embarked inside must immediately disembark. but they must be set up more than 9" from enemy models"]. However, the key difference is that when troops disembark from a Drop Pod, they arrive at the end of the movement phase [and have thus missed their chance to move], and have arrived from reserve [and are thus incapable of moving]. A Valkyrie performs it's Grav Chute Insertion at any time during the movement phase, which means that disembarking Guardsmen have not lost their ability to move.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
It is very clearly established that you can move, disembark, move the models, and charge, because of the Valyrie's special rules.
Yes, this is possible.
Yes, it's been done to me.
Yes, it's ridiculously strong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 16:28:39
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: It is very clearly established that you can move, disembark, move the models, and charge, because of the Valyrie's special rules.
Yes, this is possible.
Yes, it's been done to me.
Yes, it's ridiculously strong.
I somehow doubt the last point. I think it's just flat out inefficient.
Scions naturally have Deep Strike. Scions weren't going to go into melee anyway. Scions have 12" rapid-fire range on plasmaguns. They don't need to move after they arrive.
Mounting in a Valkyrie is just worse. Of course, it does help you to make your way around the half-on-board rule, and somewhat contributes to drop reduction, but that's really a formality, and I'd rather take something cheap and tough than something expensive for that purpose.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 16:58:36
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Except you don't need to just put scions in there. Bullgryns/Ogryns can also ride in this. Anything Astra Militarum can.
Being able to move a flyer speed, disembark the same turn, and move, shoot+ charge, is brutally strong. I'm not sure how you can deny it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 18:08:46
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
So, what can you achieve at turn 1 assault? is there any profit? wait, what is this "first blood", is it a profit? I've played well with my gene-cult + tyranid horde at tournaments. Also works well when hunting Warlord..
Marmatag wrote: Except you don't need to just put scions in there. Bullgryns/Ogryns can also ride in this. Anything Astra Militarum can.
Being able to move a flyer speed, disembark the same turn, and move, shoot+ charge, is brutally strong. I'm not sure how you can deny it.
Because those units are absolute crap.
4 Ogryn dropping from a Valkyrie net you 12 CQC attacks as WS3+, S5, AP-, for a total cost of 300 points. Bullgryn make it 350.
Ogryn are not scary.
Let me put it this way: Let's say we take Bullgryn with Brute Shields and Power Mauls, and stuff 4 of them into a Valkryie. Total unit cost is 354 points.
For that price, I can buy 2 Tempestor Primes, 2 Stormtrooper Command Squads, and 2 Stormtrooper Squads. That totals up to 360 point, arrives via Deep Strike, and brings with 10 Plasmaguns, 2 Plasma Pistols, and 4 Hot-Shot Lasguns, netting a total of 22 overcharged plasma shots re-rolling 1's, for 21 average damage to a tank-like enemy [not including the hot-shot lasguns, this this isn't even the most optimal way to put this affair together]. The Bullgryn manage to average 4 damage.
Lord Katherine's take on Ogryn:
Ogryn: Terrible. They are not nearly as survivable as advertised and have crap offensive output. For 30 PPM, don't even bother buy yourself 10 Conscripts if you want the tarpit.
Bullgry: Orgyn were terrible. So lets give them the option of equipping an gun that's so bad you'd have to pay me points to take it, or a power weapon that's perfectly calibrated to give them little actual benefit over just using their fists. However, they can take a 4+ invul, so at least they can be a distraction. Oh, wait, at 42 PPM you might as well buy Guardsmen or Conscripts for that purpose, both would have better survivability and more offensive output. I guess Bullgryn are better at killing hot-pocket marines, but if I start having problems with Primaris, I'm 90% certain I still have better options.
As an IG player, if you're running an alpha-strike list, you are not filling it with Orgyn in Valkryies. you're filling it with Stormtroopers. And Vultures, if they'll allow Forgeworld.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2017/08/11 19:26:00
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Say you're deploying on the long side of a 6'x4' table, thats 24" No Mans Land
I deploy a raptors+Jump Pack Sorceror on my 12" deployment line
They move 12"
Sorceror moves 12"
Sorceror casts Warptime on the Raptors, giving them an extra 12" Movement
The Raptors have now crossed No Mans Land, and can tie up something in Combat (meaning it cant shoot for a turn while your other units advance)
Bonus Points if you do it to a Tough Nut, like a Leviathan Dreadnought (as its SUPER Tough, moves 12" and can kill pretty much ANYTHING in Combat)
Marmatag wrote: Except you don't need to just put scions in there. Bullgryns/Ogryns can also ride in this. Anything Astra Militarum can.
Being able to move a flyer speed, disembark the same turn, and move, shoot+ charge, is brutally strong. I'm not sure how you can deny it.
Because those units are absolute crap.
4 Ogryn dropping from a Valkyrie net you 12 CQC attacks as WS3+, S5, AP-, for a total cost of 300 points. Bullgryn make it 350.
Ogryn are not scary.
Let me put it this way: Let's say we take Bullgryn with Brute Shields and Power Mauls, and stuff 4 of them into a Valkryie. Total unit cost is 354 points.
For that price, I can buy 2 Tempestor Primes, 2 Stormtrooper Command Squads, and 2 Stormtrooper Squads. That totals up to 360 point, arrives via Deep Strike, and brings with 10 Plasmaguns, 2 Plasma Pistols, and 4 Hot-Shot Lasguns, netting a total of 22 overcharged plasma shots re-rolling 1's, for 21 average damage to a tank-like enemy [not including the hot-shot lasguns, this this isn't even the most optimal way to put this affair together]. The Bullgryn manage to average 4 damage.
Lord Katherine's take on Ogryn:
Ogryn: Terrible. They are not nearly as survivable as advertised and have crap offensive output. For 30 PPM, don't even bother buy yourself 10 Conscripts if you want the tarpit.
Bullgry: Orgyn were terrible. So lets give them the option of equipping an gun that's so bad you'd have to pay me points to take it, or a power weapon that's perfectly calibrated to give them little actual benefit over just using their fists. However, they can take a 4+ invul, so at least they can be a distraction. Oh, wait, at 42 PPM you might as well buy Guardsmen or Conscripts for that purpose, both would have better survivability and more offensive output. I guess Bullgryn are better at killing hot-pocket marines, but if I start having problems with Primaris, I'm 90% certain I still have better options.
As an IG player, if you're running an alpha-strike list, you are not filling it with Orgyn in Valkryies. you're filling it with Stormtroopers. And Vultures, if they'll allow Forgeworld.
Yes, the rest of guard is so brutally and criminally undercosted that these aren't the best option. I never said they are. But the Valkyrie is a really good vehicle. If Games Workshop ever brings guard back in line with the rest of the game, valkyries will make more sense. Until then, people can spam conscripts/manticores/plasma and expect to win a majority of their games.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Except you don't need to just put scions in there. Bullgryns/Ogryns can also ride in this. Anything Astra Militarum can.
Being able to move a flyer speed, disembark the same turn, and move, shoot+ charge, is brutally strong. I'm not sure how you can deny it.
Because those units are absolute crap.
4 Ogryn dropping from a Valkyrie net you 12 CQC attacks as WS3+, S5, AP-, for a total cost of 300 points. Bullgryn make it 350.
Ogryn are not scary.
Let me put it this way: Let's say we take Bullgryn with Brute Shields and Power Mauls, and stuff 4 of them into a Valkryie. Total unit cost is 354 points.
For that price, I can buy 2 Tempestor Primes, 2 Stormtrooper Command Squads, and 2 Stormtrooper Squads. That totals up to 360 point, arrives via Deep Strike, and brings with 10 Plasmaguns, 2 Plasma Pistols, and 4 Hot-Shot Lasguns, netting a total of 22 overcharged plasma shots re-rolling 1's, for 21 average damage to a tank-like enemy [not including the hot-shot lasguns, this this isn't even the most optimal way to put this affair together]. The Bullgryn manage to average 4 damage.
Lord Katherine's take on Ogryn:
Ogryn: Terrible. They are not nearly as survivable as advertised and have crap offensive output. For 30 PPM, don't even bother buy yourself 10 Conscripts if you want the tarpit.
Bullgry: Orgyn were terrible. So lets give them the option of equipping an gun that's so bad you'd have to pay me points to take it, or a power weapon that's perfectly calibrated to give them little actual benefit over just using their fists. However, they can take a 4+ invul, so at least they can be a distraction. Oh, wait, at 42 PPM you might as well buy Guardsmen or Conscripts for that purpose, both would have better survivability and more offensive output. I guess Bullgryn are better at killing hot-pocket marines, but if I start having problems with Primaris, I'm 90% certain I still have better options.
As an IG player, if you're running an alpha-strike list, you are not filling it with Orgyn in Valkryies. you're filling it with Stormtroopers. And Vultures, if they'll allow Forgeworld.
Yes, the rest of guard is so brutally and criminally undercosted that these aren't the best option. I never said they are. But the Valkyrie is a really good vehicle. If Games Workshop ever brings guard back in line with the rest of the game, valkyries will make more sense. Until then, people can spam conscripts/manticores/plasma and expect to win a majority of their games.
No, because Ogryn+Valks is still garbage. Compare to Genestealers then, or Boyz, or Seraphim, or Dominions, or literally anything. I can't think of anything worse, except maybe and entire army of Repentia. Ogryns are crap and Valkyries are redundant, so the whole affair is a waste of points no matter how you look at it.
Even if we made the rest of the Guard army so expensive it can't be played, Ogryn drops would still be garbage, because Ogryn can't match Genestealers, Berzerkers, Boyz, or any other real melee troop.
Finally, Marmatag, not to make a personal attack, why don't you try a few games as Imperial Guard, it will help you find weaknesses in their list. In addition, most of the IG list is crap, you'll also find this out. Or, just try to play competitively. If I'm bringing my tournament army, and you're bringing your fluffy beer-and-pretzels army, I'm going to win. Space Marines have Leviathan Dreadnoughts, start there.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/11 21:46:14
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I understand, it's not personal. I play in 2 tournaments a month, with the ITC format. AM/Guard dominates. I've posted my competitive lists numerous times and asked for help from guard players who have the same response you did (basically, "get good," but with friendlier words). The end result is no one has anything meaningful to say, because Grey Knights simply aren't outfitted to handle what the guard can do, at the price they can do it. My codex will help - I don't deny this - so its possible my tune will change in the coming weeks.
But, I appreciate your suggestion. I am in the process of trying to acquire conscripts, but in a cost-effective way. The top GK finisher at the BAO had more conscripts than power armor in his list. It's a slow process. I'm also expanding out of marines. But, point of order: I don't enjoy gunline play. I have Roboute Guilliman and a host of things that go great put in his little bubble. But it's not a super fun playstyle. It doesn't feel dynamic.
Now, I know you aren't attacking me. But let me offer a suggestion in return: Try playing a marine army in this edition without the gimmicks, and see how it goes, at an ITC or competitive event. You can do CSM, SM, GK, BA, etc. Dark Angels are competitive though, and you could do well with Azrael. At the last event I played in, I was the only marine based army with a winning record. 2 others I know won a grand total of 1 game between them. The two armies i see you playing are sisters, and guard. These two armies are - I believe, it's been a week or so since i saw the gigantic ITC excel - the two with the highest win percentage across all ITC events. It'd be like if you played Eldar and Tau in 7th edition.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/11 22:17:31
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Flayed Ones can deepstrike, and pair well with a command barge. The barge's 12" wave of command will give them +1 charge distance and +1 to hit on their 4 attacks per model that reroll failed wounds.
There's a good reason Flayed Ones are 20 ppm this edition.
Also, if you pair Triarch Praetorians with a Shard of the Deceiver, you get a first turn charge as long as you go first with the deceiver's Grand Illusion and the praetorian's 10" move.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 22:24:28
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
Flayed Ones can deepstrike, and pair well with a command barge. The barge's 12" wave of command will give them +1 charge distance and +1 to hit on their 4 attacks per model that reroll failed wounds.
There's a good reason Flayed Ones are 20 ppm this edition.
Also, if you pair Triarch Praetorians with a Shard of the Deceiver, you get a first turn charge as long as you go first with the deceiver's Grand Illusion and the praetorian's 10" move.
There was actually a really solid necrons player at my last tournament. He came in fourth or fifth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 22:31:15
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: I understand, it's not personal. I play in 2 tournaments a month, with the ITC format. AM/Guard dominates. I've posted my competitive lists numerous times and asked for help from guard players who have the same response you did (basically, "get good," but with friendlier words). The end result is no one has anything meaningful to say, because Grey Knights simply aren't outfitted to handle what the guard can do, at the price they can do it. My codex will help - I don't deny this - so its possible my tune will change in the coming weeks.
But, I appreciate your suggestion. I am in the process of trying to acquire conscripts, but in a cost-effective way. The top GK finisher at the BAO had more conscripts than power armor in his list. It's a slow process. I'm also expanding out of marines. But, point of order: I don't enjoy gunline play. I have Roboute Guilliman and a host of things that go great put in his little bubble. But it's not a super fun playstyle. It doesn't feel dynamic.
Now, I know you aren't attacking me. But let me offer a suggestion in return: Try playing a marine army in this edition without the gimmicks, and see how it goes, at an ITC or competitive event. You can do CSM, SM, GK, BA, etc. Dark Angels are competitive though, and you could do well with Azrael. At the last event I played in, I was the only marine based army with a winning record. 2 others I know won a grand total of 1 game between them. The two armies i see you playing are sisters, and guard. These two armies are - I believe, it's been a week or so since i saw the gigantic ITC excel - the two with the highest win percentage across all ITC events. It'd be like if you played Eldar and Tau in 7th edition.
I have Space Wolves too. I've yet to play as them, or at least play them as my main force, but they are my "travel" army [low model count, few tanks, and generally not being fragile makes for an army that fits in carry-on], so I'm probably going to be playing a few matches with them in the next few months. Right now, I'm liking the look of Leviathan Dreadnoughts, Lascannon Predators, and a Lieutenant as a lethal and hard to shift firebase.
I do prepare lists as the expected enemy, and simulate games playing as the enemy against my own list. It helps me find the weaknesses and limitations of their own list, as well as identify weaknesses that they are poised to exploit and prepare countermeasures.
Flayed Ones can deepstrike, and pair well with a command barge. The barge's 12" wave of command will give them +1 charge distance and +1 to hit on their 4 attacks per model that reroll failed wounds.
There's a good reason Flayed Ones are 20 ppm this edition.
Also, if you pair Triarch Praetorians with a Shard of the Deceiver, you get a first turn charge as long as you go first with the deceiver's Grand Illusion and the praetorian's 10" move.
There was actually a really solid necrons player at my last tournament. He came in fourth or fifth.
There's a Necron player using the Deceiver to scout Monoliths and Night Scythes, and then crap out a big pile of Lynchguard and commence a T1 charge, it's apparently very destructive, but I haven't faced it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/12 01:58:14
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
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