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From what I've heard other people say and from the few games I've played against people using Primaris marines they seem pretty rubbish, the only Primaris models I've seen being effective are the Lieutenants and the Dreadnought and now their is a regular marine Lieutenant.
They just seem like a pretty "meh" units: want some troops? Go for cheaper tac marines. Want plasma spam? Go for cheaper veterans. Want a Captain, Lieutenant, etc.? Go for the cheaper non-Primaris versions. I've seen people praise the Inceptors for their rate of fire but they are quite expensive for what they do and not brilliant if your opponant doesn't have chaff units. Maybe the new Aggressors will be more impressive with the RavenGuard strategem but who knows...
Of course I'm just a filthy Heretic who's only played a couple of games against these nu-marines, what do other players who are more familiar with these units think?
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
I think intercessors are effective in their own way and distinct from tactical marines. They are cheaper wounds, better in melee. Still terrible at range and no good special weapons, but tac marines aren't so hot either.
Aggressors look promising, excellent anti-infantry with powerfists in melee. Similar to terminators, although slightly less survivable. No deepstrike is a killer but I guess that they are the best unit for a repulsor to transport.
The long version: Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.
Although I do enjoy the Legion-esque organization. Whenever lore questions come up with my friends, I have to do some epic word limboing to explain why Tactical Squads are superior to Devastator Squads, despite the latter making far more sense.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
They do their job reasonably well. You can find things that'll do a Primaris squad's job cheaper, yes (plasma-Company Veterans for Hellblasters, for instance), but the Primaris are paying extra for 2W and usually some minor upgrades (an extra 6" of range and an extra point of AP, on a lot of the guns).
I think they slot into the list reasonably well; they don't render old units redundant, they're laterally different rather than being just better. They're there to be a frontline that can wander around the table without a transport in a way that normal power-armoured Marines have a hard time with these days.
(That isn't to say they were necessary, I really don't think Space Marines needed a whole extra range when we're still waiting on Guardsmen and Guardians that aren't twenty years old, but I don't think they're anywhere near as badly-designed as they could have been. That said, though the ordinary infantry have been growing on me, the Inceptors are still ridiculous.)
There's a few rare cases where Primaris are more useful - I'm currently trying out 10 Hellblasters with heavy plasma incinerators sat inside a Plasma Obliterator. It's a ton of points but is very destructive!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/12 18:07:39
I have played 3 games against Primaris lists so far and tabled them every time. While I don't think they had all the models they wanted to optimize their lists, I was a little embarrassed at how bad I beat them. I am not impressed as of yet.
Hehehe. All the Nu-Marines do is scream "Nuuuuuuuuu!"
I giggled.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
2017/08/12 20:31:12
Subject: Re:Are Primaris marines actually any good?
You know, I have some free time. Let's take a look at them and each of their alternatives:
HQ: Ultimately, the non-primaris HQ options win out.
Spoiler:
Captains: You pay +17 points for +1w, +1a, and an assault 2, 2 damage boltgun. Unfortunately, the primaris captain can't ride in any transports and can't take jump packs. But you can give him a 36" heavy 1 S4 AP-2 2-damage weapon for 1 point more, so he can afford to sit back and hit some monstrous creature, and if you want him to fight in close combat he can be given a power sword... just... good luck getting him there. The normal captain just has a lot more variety in equipment, making him the clear winner in utility in spite of his marginally inferior stats.
Lieutenants.: Same deal. +14 points for +1w, +1a, and an assault 2, 2d boltgun, but with less variety in equipment-- to get the power sword you must replace the boltgun, not buy it additionally. Lt. is the clear winner here.
Chaplains: +13 points for +1w, +1a, and a better bolt pistol. Absolutely no equipment options. Only reason to take this is if you're doing a primaris-only army and even then... good luck getting him where he needs to be without doling out for an expensive Repulsor.
Librarians: Oddly enough, the Primaris Librarian is no additional points in spite of having a flat out superior statline. However, the normal librarian has superior options, including force weapons other than the sword, and can ride in a rhino or equip a jump pack. This is a slightly closer contest than the previous HQ entries, but still, I think by virtue of versatility, the normal libbie wins out.
Troops: Intercessors are a solid 10 points per wound, making them the most efficient option for soaking up damage sitting on an objective that marines have available to them, and they have objective secured, to boot. Tacticals win out on versatility-- Intercessors only get the option to purchase a power sword on the sarge, or to change their 30" AP-1 boltguns for assault 2 boltguns (+1pt) or 36" ap-2 heavy 1 boltguns (+2pts), or a sidegrade giving the ability to have a 30" grenade toss-- but you pay for that versatility in reduced durability per point. Still, at rapid fire range they can definitely out-damage an intercessor squad, though the intercessor squad can be kitted out to out-range or out-mobile the tactical squad. The biggest drawback I feel is the Intercessors' lack of transports, to be honest, otherwise I'd say they're the clear winner in the comparison.
Elites: A mixed bag, but I think a few of the primaris elite options deserve consideration, far more than the HQ options.
Spoiler:
The Ancient and Apothecary suffer the same problems as the HQ options.
Aggressors: I'm not sure what to compare the Aggressors to, but I'm guessing Centurions. And... they're probably better? They have better movement than centurions, but centurions have better firepower and melee ability... but at nearly twice the cost of aggressors, they damn well better. Up to you if you think the 43 points aggressers are better than the 75 point assault centurion, but I think it's hard to argue the 104 point dev cents are better after their nerf, even with their firepower per model. Personally I'm giving it to the aggressors, for bringing plenty of firepower for their points while still being mobile through being able to advance and fire without penalty.
Redemptor Dread: It... has a lot of guns on it? That's about all I can say about it. It can output a hefty 18 S5 AP-1 shots plus a pair of stormbolters and some anti-air rockets for 202 points, which is a hefty amount of hits. But it feels vulnerable, with only five wounds before it goes to BS4+-- compared to a venerable dread which not only has a 6+ FNP but also doesn't lose fighting ability as it takes damage, or even a normal dread, both of which are cheaper options, albeit with less firepower but far more durability. I think the non-primaris dreads are better for their ability to survive, but the redemptor has somewhat better alpha strike ability at least to make up for it.
Reivers: There's nothing that really compares to Reivers. With assault 2, 2-damage boltguns or combat knives and ap-1 bolt pistols, they bring the same sensibilities as intercessors while being more focused on short-ranged fighting. Their shock grenades allow for superb utility-- giving a -1 to-hit even if you don't charge, and denying overwatch if you do-- and their ability to deepstrike for +1ppm grants them utility most other primaris models lack. I think Reivers have a place in most marine armies.
Fast Attack: Inceptors... well, they're an expensive hit and run unit. Marines don't really have naything like them to compare them to, to be honest. At 60ppm, you get an 18" heavy bolter that can fire on the move, or fire at -1 if you advance. They have special rules that let them do extra damage on the charge, and as they're a fly unit they can join and leave combat at a whim. So they have that going for them. Now if they weren't so expensive for having only 2 wounds... they make Terminators look cheap!
Heavy Support: Hellblasters kill stuff ded. Someone else can sing their praises.
Transport: Repulsor. It's a land raider on a hoverboard, but with better firepower than most land raiders. For what it is, it's actually pretty good.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Thus far, I've been on a rather fortunate tear with my Primarily Primaris Army (supplemented with a couple MSUTAC squads to fill out Battalion). I haven't played enough games with various lists to know how much of my success has been down to just the dice, or in the case of some of my more crushing victories, down to the disgusting efficiency that is Roboute Guilliman.
I'm in a decently competitive area, but nothing where people are going to tournies and placing high.
From my experience playing them, the Hellblasters, the Lt's and the Dread are strong models that can find a place in a strong 'normal' Space Marine army. Other models are pretty meh. Aggressors are situationally strong.
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2017/08/12 20:34:30
Subject: Re:Are Primaris marines actually any good?
I fought them as Imperial guard, my opponent was using Raven Guard tactics. The Primaris were being used in defensive positions, and were very hardy, absorbing a substantial amount of my army's fire for two turns. Ultimately I did destroy them, but they held their ground well.
Other words, I would like to get my hands on a few at some point.
You say Fiery Crash! I say Dynamic Entry!
*Increases Game Point Limit by 100*: Tau get two Crisis Suits and a Firewarrior. Imperial Guard get two infantry companies, artillery support, and APCs.
I think they are great. Particularly intercessors. They are the all grounders marines should have been. They are reasonable tough - have decent shooting and above average close combat. I want nothing more out of my troop requirements. Hell blasters are next best. Decent at long range with rapid fire guns and up close they are devastating. Reasonably tough too. Which is great. Repuslors...don't get me started - best imperial tank.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The new stuff is great models in most cases rules are ok which is a reason I like them they don't op any one, they are just a different bag to normal marines.
The most effective units I have found is:
Aggressor's (ether version) basicly because they are fast (run and shoot no penalties), have a huge amount of dice out put normally and extreme amount when standing still.
Intercessors good 20 wound squad good range good gun nothing wrong at all
Repulsor tank expensive but so much firepower and no need to really decide if you want anti tank or anti troop as it does both arm it with twin las and las talon then a gat gun, 5 frag launchers and 2 Krak launchers plus it's heavy stubber no matter what it faces it is in for a world of hurt.
But I personally think the models are great and you get a good fight using them and let's face it we so know gw will be releasing alot more for them than what is in the codex lol que the blood angel getting a super repulsor chassis tank.
I have played only a couple of games with them as currently building up my army not win but has been a good scrap each time with narrow defeats. But found stay away from the jump troops
Xenomancers wrote: I think they are great. Particularly intercessors. They are the all grounders marines should have been. They are reasonable tough - have decent shooting and above average close combat. I want nothing more out of my troop requirements. Hell blasters are next best. Decent at long range with rapid fire guns and up close they are devastating. Reasonably tough too. Which is great. Repuslors...don't get me started - best imperial tank.
Could you elaborate on the Repulsors please?
I'd love the Repulsors to be the best Imperial tank, I have three. But right now they seem quite squishy.
I find that Stormravens are still better in a lot of respects.
If I take any less than three, there's no point in taking any since they'll both just die on my opponents first turn.
I find they're best at armies we don't need any help against anyway. Tyranids, Orks and any other race that relies more on Assault for their anti tank.
Defensively, repulsors are land raiders with a 3+ save that can leave assault at a whim without sacrificing firepower.
If you find repulsors "squishy", do you find EVERY vehicle squishy?
Hell, the repulsor is actually tougher than the stormraven you love so much with a higher toughness value and two more wounds, whcih really adds up-- keep in mind, overcharged plasmaguns are S8, so that means the stormraven is actually wounded on a 3+ by plasgmaguns but the repulsor is wounded on a 4+. And it's actually easier to charge a stormraven than it is to charge a repulsor, oddly enough.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/13 17:53:08
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The Stormraven also has a -1 to Hit which can make up for its toughness and it is four times faster than a Repulsor.
You can't assault a Stormraven at all while its in the air unless you have Fly. Which is besides the point anyway because both vehicles are dying to shooting more often than assault.
A Stormraven will deploy out of range of all the Repulsors guns except its Twin Lascannon then fly in your face with its Lascannons, Multimeltas in half range and its Stormstrike Missiles.
If you're going to overcharge Plasma on a Stormraven you're going to kill yourself on a 1 or a 2. Not the best target for your Plasma.
XT-1984 wrote: The Stormraven also has a -1 to Hit which can make up for its toughness and it is four times faster than a Repulsor.
You can't assault a Stormraven at all while its in the air unless you have Fly. Which is besides the point anyway because both vehicles are dying to shooting more often than assault.
A Stormraven will deploy out of range of all the Repulsors guns except its Twin Lascannon then fly in your face with its Lascannons, Multimeltas in half range and its Stormstrike Missiles.
If you're going to overcharge Plasma on a Stormraven you're going to kill yourself on a 1 or a 2. Not the best target for your Plasma.
Again though.. as the guy said above, if you're going to call a Repulsor squishy because compared to a Stormraven it's squishier due to -1 to hit from being a super sonic flyer.. doesn't that make EVERYTHING that isn't like a baneblade/super heavy squisher? Would be fairer to compare it's value to it's land grinding kin than to probably one of the most silly broken flyers around right now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/13 18:31:38
2017/08/13 18:57:27
Subject: Re:Are Primaris marines actually any good?
Fast Attack: Inceptors... well, they're an expensive hit and run unit. Marines don't really have naything like them to compare them to, to be honest. At 60ppm, you get an 18" heavy bolter that can fire on the move, or fire at -1 if you advance. They have special rules that let them do extra damage on the charge, and as they're a fly unit they can join and leave combat at a whim. So they have that going for them. Now if they weren't so expensive for having only 2 wounds... they make Terminators look cheap!
Marines don't really need anything like them. The list has always been able to spam S5 AP1 shots just fine, and do it at twice the range for a fraction of the cost. Fly is about the only thing they have that matters, and Ultras can fake the relevant parts of that.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2017/08/13 19:37:50
Subject: Re:Are Primaris marines actually any good?
XT-1984 wrote: The Stormraven also has a -1 to Hit which can make up for its toughness
And then it has fewer wounds, therefor it's more vulnerable to shooting as a result.
XT-1984 wrote: A Stormraven will deploy out of range of all the Repulsors guns
I did not make the comparison as a "duel" between the two. That would be like complaining that a lascannon devastator squad can't take down conscripts.
Even at its best anti-vehicle build, the repulsor is better equipped to deal with infantry than vehicles.
For a better durability comparison, I choose a pair of quad-las predators or a pair of lascannon dev teams. Even with the stormraven's -1 to hit, they'll kill it in on average two turns, where it takes an average of three turns to kill the repulsor. The Repulsor won't even be reduced to hitting on 4+ on the first turn, where the Stormraven will. On the second turn, the repulsor will still be hitting on 5+ and moving a crippled but possibly important 3", but the stormraven will be dead.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/13 21:28:57
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Heard some stories about the new primaris centurion equivalents (i think they were the 'aggressors). They're really, really good supposedly. Like horde deleting good. Guy claimed on getting about 120 boltgun equivalent shots in one turn of shooting with 5 guys. I'll just let that sink in for a moment. Fairly cheap to do so too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/13 21:30:10
It's closer to 95 shots on average-- 120 is the utmost maximum if you roll 6s on all 12 rolls to determine the number of shots on their fragstorm launchers.
And even then, divide that by half if they moved the turn before-- because yes they can output twice as much damage, but only if you have them stay still for a full turn... which for a unit with 18" range, is not necessarily reliable.
Does make them a good defensive unit, however, as they gain this firing twice bonus even on overwatch.
That said, 47.5 boltgun shots for 179 points isn't bad. It's equivalent to the bolter shock you'd get from two ten-man squads of tactical marines with storm bolters on the sarges.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/13 21:36:35
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
flamingkillamajig wrote: Heard some stories about the new primaris centurion equivalents (i think they were the 'aggressors). They're really, really good supposedly. Like horde deleting good. Guy claimed on getting about 120 boltgun equivalent shots in one turn of shooting with 5 guys. I'll just let that sink in for a moment. Fairly cheap to do so too.
I mean, yeah, they put out a lot of fire power but at 2W with a 3+ and no invul save they'll die pretty easy for their 43pts each.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Yeah they're more expensive than a terminator but less durable. They are marginally mroe mobile though; they can fire after advancing.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
flamingkillamajig wrote: Heard some stories about the new primaris centurion equivalents (i think they were the 'aggressors). They're really, really good supposedly. Like horde deleting good. Guy claimed on getting about 120 boltgun equivalent shots in one turn of shooting with 5 guys. I'll just let that sink in for a moment. Fairly cheap to do so too.
I mean, yeah, they put out a lot of fire power but at 2W with a 3+ and no invul save they'll die pretty easy for their 43pts each.
I dunno man. It costs me about 140 pts for 10 scourge (toughness 3, 4+, 6++ and one wound) with sharcarbines that gives them 30 18" poisoned shots with assault with 3+ to hit. For just double those aggressors are more durable and mostly better. I mean i dunno what are they toughness 5? I mean i'm sure autocannons tear through em (still getting used to 8th) but it's not too bad.
On the subject of 2 wounds models i've noticed a pattern with 8th. Hordes are mostly really good, units that were essentially jetpack/jump pack units last edition seem good, bikes and jetbikes cost too much and lascannons and dark lance got really good. Not sure where to place flyers. Much as people here talk good of the void raven mine isn't really good anymore. It's so bad in fact that i took it out of my last game. The missiles used to be able to decimate a horde when you unleashed all 4. Usually now i kill 4 dudes or something insanely low that it's idiotic. The weapons then under-perform and the void mine which should be good just tends not to have anything to hit on the table (most viable units are in transports) and just gets shot off the board before it can do anything. Also i never thought i'd want the thing to come on later but i very much do. Would be nice to see it once i pop some transports with units good for killing with it. Course i'll admit i'm still very new to 8th.
Anyway sorry for that tangent out of nowhere but i think some of the primaris stuff seems alright. If nothing else i heard some good on the hover tank. Something about being a hover landraider.
TL;DR: There are some nice choices, but overall the Primaris is more or less too expensive. And for a pure Primaris army they are still lacking some Primaris-versions of some normal marine units.
What is really idiotic is those ruling concerning the transport capacity, with that they are handling them as if they were another faction. And Gravis armor taking up 2 slots, sorry but that is ridiculous.
And i say this as a person who is not playing marines, but liking the models and i was interesting in playing a pure Primaris army. As it is i can just say thank you GW for saving me money.
Spoiler:
The reason is i expected more and i find them overpriced. In general the price for +1 w is too high. I know they also have +1a.
If all would wear the gravis armor, i would be fine with at least intercessors and hellblasters.
Wonder how they shoehorned the primaris in mk8 armor (or is it mk7?).
Remember a 2nd wound in 8th is much less worth than a 2nd wound in previous editions, as there a now a lot of weapons available doing more than 1 damage without being double the strength.
Yes the repulsor and the hellblasters (except their lack of gravis armor) are good or at least ok. Though i can only shake my head about gravis armor taking up 2 slots and that Primaris and normal marines can´t ride the same transport.
Inceptors (excl. weapons) are 14 points (nearly double) more than assault marines with jump packs. For -2m +1w, +1t, +1a, really?
From the points difference between tac marins and intercessors you pay 7 points for +1w and 1a. That would mean you pay 7 points to upgrade the toughness from 4 to 5.
At least the plasma weapon could also need a little price reduction.
Wondering why plaque marines are so cheap even compared to intercessors.
Aggressors are a real disappointment. I expected them to bear new weaponry like the grav once was, though balanced of course.
Even dual wielding onslought gatling cannons would be nice. What we get is the very basic bolter stat line, granted in a number never seen before.
Here you pay 5 points more than an intercessor for t5 instead of t4, confusing, but atleast more fitting.
Nearly the double costs of tac marines but thanks to lots of multi-damage weapons, nowhere near at double survivability.
Reivers, really unimpressed. Why do you have to pay 2 points more for an intercessor?
The Redemptor dread is 30 points more than the normal dreadnought (with dccw) for +2m, +1s and +5w. Only the last 6 reduce his combat efficiency. So for 7 wounds he is fighting at 100% and is still fighting when the normal dread is gone.
So i wouldn´t rate damage table as important compared to the normal dread.
The whole lot of dakka makes him good.
Though if i would pick him or venerable dreads would depend on army composition and tactics.
I am having good results with my Hellblasters so far provided they have a Captain nearby to hold their hands when they overcharge. Since they got a price drop in the codex, they are now only 2ppm more than Company Vets with plasma guns. For those 2 points they get 2W, 2A, better leadership and an extra 6" range. I had a squad burn down a Hellbrute in my last game.
Intercessors benefit from the forthcoming ObjSec and make adequate objective campers. Haven't tried Reivers or Aggressors yet. Aggressors seem like they really need to be UMs to work well which kinda sucks. I quite like the idea of Inceptors but they are really expensive for what they bring. If they had stayed at 53 ppm as per the Dark Millenium minidex, they would have been viable. As it stands they cost a lot for such fragile models. You can get attack bikes for less which are twice as durable and have the choice of HBs or MMs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/14 08:45:24
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
@Firefox1 - That is actually a really good point.. why are Intercessors 2pts more than a Reiver? They have the exact same statline.. they have a better bolt pistol and the addition of shock grenades, and the Bolt Carbine is exactly same as an Auto Bolt Rifle, which is a 1pt upgrade cost even on Intercessors..! Never thought about that before, what gives? oO
None of them is bad, they're all decent. But SM standards are very high, they have tons of units and options, several of them extremely good if not overpowered. That's why primaris don't shine, not because they're bad, but because marines already have plenty of effective tools to play with.
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