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 Blackie wrote:
None of them is bad, they're all decent. But SM standards are very high, they have tons of units and options, several of them extremely good if not overpowered. That's why primaris don't shine, not because they're bad, but because marines already have plenty of effective tools to play with.

↑ This.

I had originally intended to do an all-primaris army, and it would be fine for non-competitive games, but not so great for tournaments. Missing long-range, multi-wound shooting. They need to be shored up with las devs, las razors or las preds.

I hate to go back on limitations I set myself, and I now really prefer the new models, but in world with ravens that move 40", you need more lascannons than a pure primaris army can provide.

I'm pretty happy with my Primaris army from Reading this thread. I much rather they introduce them cautiously than make them OP and alienate every Marine player out there.

I actually think they're pretty great. The -1 AP on their bolters + the additional range is fantastic. You get less shots overall, yes, but you gain twice the wounds. Lots of people are complaining that they're extremely vulnerable to mult-wound damage, but I've not found it to be much of a problem, and not faced many units with it. Heck, if they're firing their expensive weapons at my intercessors I'll take that as a win. A little run-down of the Primaris I own:

The Intercessors are fantastic for trudging up the board, protecting characters and holding objectives. I also really like them at 100 points for a 5 man unit, feels about right.

The Reivers seem ok. Deep striking them into cover and putting out 2 non rapid fire bolter shots is pretty handy. I've not been able to utilise the grenades yet, but with such a short range their use seems pretty limited.

The Hellblasters can put out plenty of hurt when combined with a captain. Try and embed them in cover somewhere to keep them alive as long as possible.

I own some Inceptors, but they still seem wildly expensive for what you get, so I've not tried them yet.

I personally think they have a lot going for them, what with them having two wounds and all...

Valete,

JohnS

Primaris are strange for Marines because aside from intercessors they tend to be glass cannons.

I think Aggressors for instance do great damage for their points - even before including the ability to shoot twice. Power fists also mean you can't just drive a transport or something in and reliably tie them up.

At the same time though its point efficient to shoot them with almost anything.

They sort of encapsulate 8th - everything will be dead by the end of turn 3.

Hard to lump all primaris together.
Primaris have tiers.

Tier - 1
Intersessors
Rievers
Hellblasters
Repulsor
Primaris Ancient

Tier 2
Redemptor dread (This is almost tier 1 but repulsor kills it for the points)
Gravis Captin
Primaris Captin
Primaris Librarian
Primaris Apothacary

Tier 3
Inceptors
Aggressors

I havn't had any issues with the tier one units. I don't even bother with units as bad as inceptors or agressors when they are that bad on paper - Is this the source of all the hate maybe?

The redemptor dread is also pretty solid - compared to other dreads I would say it's superior for it's cost.

For the most part, I agree with the Tier listing, Xenomancers. 90% of my matches in 8th edition have been played using an all or mostly Primaris Marines force.

The only thing I'd disagree with, is the placement of Redemptor Dread and Aggressors when you're playing against horde armies. Again, this comes from a place of considering them as ONLY using Primaris Marines. The Aggressors and Redemptor bring something that most other Primaris units lack, except for maybe the Dakka Repulsor weapon loadout; volume of fire.

Ravenguard Aggressors are exceptional against a horde list. With the way that Strike from the Shadows work, you can deploy them aggressively or defensively, dependant upon if you have first turn or not, and if you get seized on. SFTS deployment happens after the seize the initiative roll, and thus lets you place them accordingly. And since that unit has not moved in the movement phase (SFTS lets you move in your movement phase) the Aggressors can double tap. A rather effective sudden strike that can wipe out hordes of weak infantry right off the bat. Is it a perfect solution? Obviously not, but that's the way I typically use my Aggressors.

Intercessors make Tactical Marines bad basically, as I can get my Heavy Weapons from Devastators and my special weapons elsewhere. So I'm big on Intercessors.

Outside of that nothing has really grabbed my attention.

 Thadin wrote:
For the most part, I agree with the Tier listing, Xenomancers. 90% of my matches in 8th edition have been played using an all or mostly Primaris Marines force.

The only thing I'd disagree with, is the placement of Redemptor Dread and Aggressors when you're playing against horde armies. Again, this comes from a place of considering them as ONLY using Primaris Marines. The Aggressors and Redemptor bring something that most other Primaris units lack, except for maybe the Dakka Repulsor weapon loadout; volume of fire.

Ravenguard Aggressors are exceptional against a horde list. With the way that Strike from the Shadows work, you can deploy them aggressively or defensively, dependant upon if you have first turn or not, and if you get seized on. SFTS deployment happens after the seize the initiative roll, and thus lets you place them accordingly. And since that unit has not moved in the movement phase (SFTS lets you move in your movement phase) the Aggressors can double tap. A rather effective sudden strike that can wipe out hordes of weak infantry right off the bat. Is it a perfect solution? Obviously not, but that's the way I typically use my Aggressors.

Yeah I agree about the Redemptor - it's a good unit - it's just overshawdowed by the repulsor which for about 70 more points can double it's firepower/ shoot on the move / and is tougher and transports units to boot. For me the Redemptor has 1 purpose over the Repulsor and it's the fact it can fit in your army if you have about 190 points left. When I've used it it has done well - don't have any real complaints about it. Agressors I admit I have never used - I just don't think they justify their points. If memory serves me correctly they cost 44 points with the daka loadout - their firepower is good - but their movement stat and toughness seems lacking. They are a space marine bike that moves 5 inches. A space marine bike with a flamer has essentially the same firepower with 3x the mobility - and is just as tough too boot. It's hard to justify +7 points there for the agressor. Ofc they can shoot twice if they don't move - essentially this is a useless talent without some sort of gimic that allows you to move without counting as moving - otherwise if their firepower is a threat it will just be destroyed before they are ever able to double tap. Ravengard can deploy them for a command point if they know they are going first - that's the only at least workable idea with this unit. I'd take a unit of reivers over them in just about any situation though. I think they are much better at dealing with hordes with their 24" assault 2 bolters and ability to charge big hordes without taking their over-watch - they can deep strike too.

I need to get in more games with the Repulsor to really get a feel for it, and the only time ive played it was the rather expensive 334-or-so point loadout with Lascannons. It did well enough. Comparing the dakka repulsor to a Redemptor's cost, and the damage they put out compared to the other abilities they bring really puts it in perspective. I'll need to keep those things in mind.

I'm not too keen on the Reiver's model, so irrespective of their performance i likely won't be buying them. I do however like the idea of Assault Bolters. More effective than a regular bolter at the 24-13" range, and allows you to advance and still fire while backing away from various angry melee things, if you don't feel like getting in melee. The opposite also being true, letting you rush forward and get in melee while still firing away.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to lump all primaris together.
Primaris have tiers.

Tier - 1
Intersessors
Rievers
Hellblasters
Repulsor
Primaris Ancient

Tier 2
Redemptor dread (This is almost tier 1 but repulsor kills it for the points)
Gravis Captin
Primaris Captin
Primaris Librarian
Primaris Apothacary

Tier 3
Inceptors
Aggressors

I havn't had any issues with the tier one units. I don't even bother with units as bad as inceptors or agressors when they are that bad on paper - Is this the source of all the hate maybe?

The redemptor dread is also pretty solid - compared to other dreads I would say it's superior for it's cost.

Why do you not like the inceptors? i find them fairly useful by turn two deep striking them and taking out weakened units and grabbing back field objectives. mind you im playing imperial fists and i dont think the plasma version is worth it at all.

otherwise i still need to give 10man squads a shot.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to lump all primaris together.
Primaris have tiers.

Tier - 1
Intersessors
Rievers
Hellblasters
Repulsor
Primaris Ancient

Tier 2
Redemptor dread (This is almost tier 1 but repulsor kills it for the points)
Gravis Captin
Primaris Captin
Primaris Librarian
Primaris Apothacary

Tier 3
Inceptors
Aggressors

I havn't had any issues with the tier one units. I don't even bother with units as bad as inceptors or agressors when they are that bad on paper - Is this the source of all the hate maybe?

The redemptor dread is also pretty solid - compared to other dreads I would say it's superior for it's cost.

Why do you not like the inceptors? i find them fairly useful by turn two deep striking them and taking out weakened units and grabbing back field objectives. mind you im playing imperial fists and i dont think the plasma version is worth it at all.

otherwise i still need to give 10man squads a shot.

6 Man max on the Inceptors I think. Plasma is totally not worth it - Assault bolters not too bad with ignore cover and the price drop - again though - 200 points you could have 10 reivers with deep strike. They have less firepower but 4x the wounds for the cost. Like you said though they aren't the worst units in the game - I'm not sure where all the hate comes from. To bump the Inceptors up to teir 2 their mortal wound on charge ability should be on a 4+ not a gaking 6+.

Yeah but they do get T5 IIRC

which increasing there durability by a smig.

significant movement as well

i dont bother charging. they are there to juke the enemy and taking 18" pot shots at infantry

6 Inceptors each with 2 assault bolters are 360 Points, so with Xenomancers comparison you would get 18 Reivers.
So
Inceptors 36 shots at S5 AP-1 D1, 12 CC-attacks and 12 wounds at T5 with 3+
vs.
Reivers 36 shots at S4 AP0 D1, 54 CC-attacks and 36 wounds at T4 with 3+.

Looking at those numbers Reivers seem to get you more for the points. Better they get dropped close to an objective, otherwise they they need a pickup after their drop to get anywhere.

Thanks for showing me what Reivers good for.

I don't get the point of deepstrike heavy bolters. Maybe if the terrain is extremely prohibitive for long-range LOS, otherwise there are cheaper or better sources for twin heavy bolter equivalents.

sossen wrote:
I don't get the point of deepstrike heavy bolters. Maybe if the terrain is extremely prohibitive for long-range LOS, otherwise there are cheaper or better sources for twin heavy bolter equivalents.

I hear this brought up all the time, and while it's a valid point, what also needs to be considered is how targeting characters work. You can have heavy bolters in your back line blasting away at some infantry, or, you could get a good position in with your Inceptors and take out a key character. They CAN server in an assassinate role, or last minute objective grabbing. But like it is with quite a few Primaris Units, the 'normal' Space Marine line already has units that can do the same job. Space Marines have quite a few options for character killing and objective grabbing.

But my opinion ought to come with a grain of salt. I've barely used the Inceptors, as I find their cost a little too prohibitive for what they can achieve. They have a purpose that can be filled by other, more capable units and more efficient for their points.

The only good ones are the balloon marines when equipped with plasma, hell blasters, and the dread.

Incinerators are just bad, They offer nothing really other then -1 bolters which is pretty sub par all things considering.

8th is the first time I have 40kd since 3rd edition and as such I was basically starting from scratch. As a result I naturally bought all the primaris stuff to start with and have been playing full primaris armies since release. I was a competitive fantasy player before AOS and plan on eventually doing so for 40k as well, so while I am not there yet on my own competitively, I still have a fairly good grasp of what competitive play looks like I think. For casual/friendly games where people aren't bringing 5 stormravens etc Primaris units are completely competent and quite honestly super fun models to play with. They all have fairly well defined roles and perform those roles decently. Out of all of them you are probably looking at Hellblasters, and non flamer aggressors at the top of the list with interceptors, flamer aggressors, and reivers closer to the bottom. That is not to say any of them are untakeable however, even interceptors have had some truly epic moments in my friendly games, and overall I have won about as many games with an all primaris army as I have lost. One thing I have really noticed with 40k so far, is that very little, if played correctly, is truly unusable unless your opponent is bringing a completely unbalanced list.

However, if you are talking competitive play only the top tiered I mentioned, and MAYBE some intercessors to fill troops (and this would be a fluff choice that just won't cripple you), would be worth even a second look. Maybe some hellblasters in a repulsor with a captain for rerolls might work competitively. However, honestly as much as I have said they all have utility, with such a broad range of imperium choices available (especially when you aren't limiting yourself to just SM) I can't see a situation when even the top of the primaris line are the optimal tournament choice for the role they play. Am I pissed I bought a primaris army to start with though? Hell no! I have had loads of fun with them in all of my friendly games, and almost as importantly all of my opponents have enjoyed playing against them as well. I just will likely be running a combined guard/non primaris SM list for tourneys.

Every edition, I start a new army. For 8th, it's a Primaris army and Death Guard (waiting on the deck). So far I have been impressed. Now mind you I have only played up to 1k so far, so my experience with the more expensive stuff is limited.

I have found intercessors and hellblasters my favorite so far. The buffed up range and ap has made their bolters worth it. The modifiers to that armor save have definitely taken out more for me to justify their cost. The hellblasters seem to just delete things. They are able to rapid fire something safely without fear of a counter charge.

I tend to include an lt., Captain, and ancient. These three provide incredible buffs for their points. I usually move my whole army as a blob around the field. The mobility thing is an issue for them, hence objective placement and deployment is crucial. But I have been pretty lucky I guess with my objective pulls.

It is my hope they get a flyer of sorts, or at the very least another transport. The repulsor is just such a bullet magnet and quite expensive. I have seen most players definitely try to take at least two to force some targeting priority issues, but they have big shoot me signs on them, especially when your opponent knows it's the only unit that can move your army.

I will continue to play them. I am going to start including interceptors to try them out, although aggressors might fit better with my army. Interceptors do offer that paranoia to your opponent. Reivers just don't seem worth it as of right now to me.

Let's hope they get a flyer or something...

 MadMaverick76 wrote:
Every edition, I start a new army. For 8th, it's a Primaris army and Death Guard (waiting on the deck). So far I have been impressed. Now mind you I have only played up to 1k so far, so my experience with the more expensive stuff is limited.

I have found intercessors and hellblasters my favorite so far. The buffed up range and ap has made their bolters worth it. The modifiers to that armor save have definitely taken out more for me to justify their cost. The hellblasters seem to just delete things. They are able to rapid fire something safely without fear of a counter charge.

I tend to include an lt., Captain, and ancient. These three provide incredible buffs for their points. I usually move my whole army as a blob around the field. The mobility thing is an issue for them, hence objective placement and deployment is crucial. But I have been pretty lucky I guess with my objective pulls.

It is my hope they get a flyer of sorts, or at the very least another transport. The repulsor is just such a bullet magnet and quite expensive. I have seen most players definitely try to take at least two to force some targeting priority issues, but they have big shoot me signs on them, especially when your opponent knows it's the only unit that can move your army.

I will continue to play them. I am going to start including interceptors to try them out, although aggressors might fit better with my army. Interceptors do offer that paranoia to your opponent. Reivers just don't seem worth it as of right now to me.

Let's hope they get a flyer or something...

If you want repulsors to not get shot at - heres some ideas. Put 3 vindicators at the front of your army and move them right at their strong point (bring a chapter master so they are re-rolling hits) They are going to shoot the vindicators I promise. Or put some stuff around it that is easier to kill but not easy to kill (redemptor dread). A cheaper transport option would be great - even a drop pod that could take primaris marines would be acceptable (I'd just love to be able to rapid fire my hellblasters turn 1)

Depends on how you intend to use them. I feel Intercessors are pretty good as being a screen of sorts. They are actually pretty tough to get through, especially if you confer a 4++ through Azrael. Hellblasters are also pretty good for countering deepstrikes.

sossen wrote:
I don't get the point of deepstrike heavy bolters. Maybe if the terrain is extremely prohibitive for long-range LOS, otherwise there are cheaper or better sources for twin heavy bolter equivalents.

What other cheaper sources of heavy bolter equivalents that can also deep strike.

 Desubot wrote:

sossen wrote:
I don't get the point of deepstrike heavy bolters. Maybe if the terrain is extremely prohibitive for long-range LOS, otherwise there are cheaper or better sources for twin heavy bolter equivalents.

What other cheaper sources of heavy bolter equivalents that can also deep strike.

I believe he was suggesting that it isn't worth paying extra points for the ability to deep strike heavy bolters when you have cheap Devistators, Predators, Rapiers, etc.

 Desubot wrote:

sossen wrote:
I don't get the point of deepstrike heavy bolters. Maybe if the terrain is extremely prohibitive for long-range LOS, otherwise there are cheaper or better sources for twin heavy bolter equivalents.

What other cheaper sources of heavy bolter equivalents that can also deep strike.

(Most heavy bolter equivalents are 36" range and don't need to Deep Strike to get shots off.)

(Just saying.)

(Specifically you could spend 60pts on a two-Wound T5 Deep Striking model with firepower equivalent to two heavy bolters at half the range, or 76pts on a four-Wound T5 model with firepower equivalent to four heavy bolters at 36" range.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

sossen wrote:
I don't get the point of deepstrike heavy bolters. Maybe if the terrain is extremely prohibitive for long-range LOS, otherwise there are cheaper or better sources for twin heavy bolter equivalents.

What other cheaper sources of heavy bolter equivalents that can also deep strike.

(Most heavy bolter equivalents are 36" range and don't need to Deep Strike to get shots off.)

(Just saying.)

(Specifically you could spend 60pts on a two-Wound T5 Deep Striking model with firepower equivalent to two heavy bolters at half the range, or 76pts on a four-Wound T5 model with firepower equivalent to four heavy bolters at 36" range.)

mm wait 4 wound t5 model? ( i cant think of anything with 4 wounds T5 for 76 points with 4 heavy bolter type weapons.

anyway yeah i guess that would be true. though you lose out on movement 10 which is better for objective gabbing and combat locking non combat units like tanks, you lose out on assault vs heavy which is a nice thing. T5 is great, multi wounds so you dont insantly lose out on shooting power from pot shots.

smaller foot print as well from deep striking which can be useful for character sniping but thats rare and depends on the enemy having poor deployment

but yeah i guess it really would depend on how dense your LOS blocking terrain is.

Primaris are only as good as their transport options. If there is ever a primaris rhino, with a heavy flamer on it, then yes, they will be pretty good. Until that day...

I voted "meh".
Maybe I'm just annoyed at having so many new options that kind of fall between other options rather than being something unique, the only ones that have something unusual are the overpriced Inceptors.