Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
What about vultures? Anyone using those? I've been told they're busted.

I haven't played with one, because I don't have one laying around, but looking at the index, it's basically two punisher autocannons mounted on a BS 3+ flyer for (unless I missed adding wargear) <200 points. It seems significantly undercosted, particularly when you compare it to the Vendetta and to a lesser extent the Avenger.

I don't think it's a big deal personally, because a lot of people flip out about FW options, which is a shame overall, because a lot of the stuff is terribly ineffective, if still really really cool. But I guess all it takes is a few bad apples to spoil the broth, or something like that.

Hell, I think I've seen maybe two vultures in person in my life, but I suspect maybe that's going to change nowadays. Or at least until FW puts out a new imperial book kneejerking it back into line.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, given the Vendetta, I'd add at least another 50-100 points to its cost, particularly since it gets BS 3+ against non-flying things.

I'm not flipping out, I'm just offering it as a way to prop up IG in the absence of conscripts/scions. And reporting what other knowledgable players with more spare time have told me.

No it isn't binary

Yes the unit is awesome you should always take it

You can build a list round it.

The unit is good and fills a niche but it's not a requirement

It's a valid inclusion but not everyone runs it.

It's OK

It works in some lists if built correctly

It's inefficient but its the only option we have

Its inefficient but can work

Its terrible and never worth taking.

That's the list before list building. At some point, you have to make a binary choice. That's my point.

Martel732 wrote:
What about vultures? Anyone using those? I've been told they're busted.

I just bought the Gatling cannons and magnetized a Valkyrie to be anything. The Vultures problem is that I don't really need 40 S5 shots. I need AT that can actually hit.

The Vulture and bare bones Valkyrie are both 160. I run my Valks with Lascannon and Heavy Bolters so it's 188. I think
you pay a lot for the ability to transport in this edition.

Vendetta is 230.

Vendetta is pretty awful. I be even tried it in hover mode next to Yarrick but at that point, it's fragile and very expensive for BS4+ it actually ended up winning me the game because my opponent neutered it and then just ignored it but I loaded a troop squad in it and dumping them off on an OBJ.

Dunecrawlers with neutron lazers are always good

the commissar if I run a pure vehicle list should I take it because comissars are good and it's black and white no it does nothing however commisars are great in an infantry list

Sanguinary guard is always bad because death company do the same job better

Tac squads are a valid inclusion that can perform well but I would not expect everyone to run it they also vary in effectiveness by chapter

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What about vultures? Anyone using those? I've been told they're busted.

I haven't played with one, because I don't have one laying around, but looking at the index, it's basically two punisher autocannons mounted on a BS 3+ flyer for (unless I missed adding wargear) <200 points. It seems significantly undercosted, particularly when you compare it to the Vendetta and to a lesser extent the Avenger.

I don't think it's a big deal personally, because a lot of people flip out about FW options, which is a shame overall, because a lot of the stuff is terribly ineffective, if still really really cool. But I guess all it takes is a few bad apples to spoil the broth, or something like that.

Hell, I think I've seen maybe two vultures in person in my life, but I suspect maybe that's going to change nowadays. Or at least until FW puts out a new imperial book kneejerking it back into line.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, given the Vendetta, I'd add at least another 50-100 points to its cost, particularly since it gets BS 3+ against non-flying things.

It's hitting on 4's unless you enter hover mode since the guns are heavy, but you're going to need to move it to get into 24" range so you won't be able to use hover mode until turn 2, at which point you'll be in range of the entire enemy gunline. 20 str 5 shots hit, about 14 wound, roughly 10 guardsmen die or around 4-5 marines.

Fought one the other day and wasn't too impressed. It wiped a 30 man conscript mob after two turns of shooting and then promptly exploded to hydra flak fire and some vet lascannons. Might be hilarious parking it next to Harker in hover mode though. I can see a pair of them putting in some work, but I'd rather have an equivalent number of Tauroxes, especially when you factor in the monetary cost.

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What about vultures? Anyone using those? I've been told they're busted.

I haven't played with one, because I don't have one laying around, but looking at the index, it's basically two punisher autocannons mounted on a BS 3+ flyer for (unless I missed adding wargear) <200 points. It seems significantly undercosted, particularly when you compare it to the Vendetta and to a lesser extent the Avenger.

I don't think it's a big deal personally, because a lot of people flip out about FW options, which is a shame overall, because a lot of the stuff is terribly ineffective, if still really really cool. But I guess all it takes is a few bad apples to spoil the broth, or something like that.

Hell, I think I've seen maybe two vultures in person in my life, but I suspect maybe that's going to change nowadays. Or at least until FW puts out a new imperial book kneejerking it back into line.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, given the Vendetta, I'd add at least another 50-100 points to its cost, particularly since it gets BS 3+ against non-flying things.

I think maybe it could be 200pts. Maybe. But not 260! It doesn't have PotMS. If it moves it's still hitting on 4s and has no transport capacity. At 260 I'm just going to ally space Marine Flyers!

Vultures sound good based on hearsay. I totally depends on how much disposable income you have. Naturally a tournament player will spare no expense to have the best army possible. Which brings up an interesting point about the BAO:
Did anyone else notice the top 2 placers used a lot of FW stuff (couldn't see the 3rd place list). Is this a coincidence, or does FW give us an edge in tournament play?

What else were they using besides Earthshaker Platforms?

I think 108 points for the Basilisk vs 80 points for the platform seem pretty similar given the 4 less wounds, 1 less armor save, no heavy bolter, and can't move.

I'm guessing it's just a case of min-maxing and the sheer number of conscripts protecting the big guns.

CplPunishment wrote:
Vultures sound good based on hearsay. I totally depends on how much disposable income you have. Naturally a tournament player will spare no expense to have the best army possible. Which brings up an interesting point about the BAO:
Did anyone else notice the top 2 placers used a lot of FW stuff (couldn't see the 3rd place list). Is this a coincidence, or does FW give us an edge in tournament play?

FW takes index choices like basilisks and hydras and makes them cheaper in the form of platforms. It's not like you need to move them anyway so why not cut the 28-33 point premium you're paying for the chassis + HB to fit in more stuff? You dont even need to pay fw prices for them either since they dont make the platforms any more and theyre easy enough to make a decent scratch build of as long as you have the plastic kit already.

Edit: didn't realize you lose 4 wounds and a point of armor but gain a point of toughness going from bassie to platform. The platforms also don't degrade, which is a nice feature. At 7 wounds its still going to take two lascannon wounds to reliably kill it as opposed to 3 on a normal basilisk.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What about vultures? Anyone using those? I've been told they're busted.

I just bought the Gatling cannons and magnetized a Valkyrie to be anything. The Vultures problem is that I don't really need 40 S5 shots. I need AT that can actually hit.

The Vulture and bare bones Valkyrie are both 160. I run my Valks with Lascannon and Heavy Bolters so it's 188. I think
you pay a lot for the ability to transport in this edition.

Vendetta is 230.

Vendetta is pretty awful. I be even tried it in hover mode next to Yarrick but at that point, it's fragile and very expensive for BS4+ it actually ended up winning me the game because my opponent neutered it and then just ignored it but I loaded a troop squad in it and dumping them off on an OBJ.

I would agree the Vulture is pretty mediocre, even the punisher cannon variant. Mine sits on the shelf because I can't think of a list where I need 40 STR 5 AP - shots that hit on 4s or 5s for 200+ points and will probably die turn 1. I just don't need that for anything when I have 100s of lasgun shots and tons of Heavy Bolters already. Not to mention it dies absurdly fast because it can never break enemy LoS and it's perceived as a huge threat because it WAS a huge threat in 7th. However it lost its re-rolls, 3+ to hit while moving, its Vector Dancer AND its survive-ability (the old flyer rules) which are the reasons it was so good before. The Vendetta is even worse because it sits there in the open with every possible enemy gun able to see it with 6 las-cannons and a squad of men on board with T7. Do you know where alllll the enemy AT is going on turn 1? To make it worse, even if it survives it hits on 5s at full HP. The Vulture is slightly better because it can at least hit on 4s while moving, and I think it actually has a place with an AT load out because at least it can drop into hover and hit on 3s (BS3+ AT is very rare and coveted for gaurd).

Which brings me to your statement "I need AT that can actually hit. ". This is Guard's biggest weakness in my opinion. Our AT is terribly unreliable and when Knight Crusaders are cutting huge swathes of your list apart every turn, unreliable AT just doesn't cut it! What have you been using for reliable AT?

If you opponents are using flames/stormbolters/hurricane bolters for anti-horde, you can keep HWT out of range the whole game with conscripts. Without conscripts, I'm not too sure.

Haha I have no reliable AT! I just have redundant AT. Lascannon in my troop squads, maybe a heavy weapons squad, and a Basilisk. At least I can keep the Basilisk out of LoS.

Scions aren't really the answer to vehicles either. Sigh although I've had some success with meltas.

It's bad. My main opponent is space wolves and he has so much high T stuff and things with invulns. I just have to lock him in combat and maneuver for time and space. It's fun but kind of lame when your army can't really hurt that type of army. If it weren't for mass bodies I'd never stand a chance.

I think my goal is to build a AM-Ad Mech army. Use the Admech for their dune crawlers and maybe some robots. Then just mass infantry guard.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What about vultures? Anyone using those? I've been told they're busted.

I just bought the Gatling cannons and magnetized a Valkyrie to be anything. The Vultures problem is that I don't really need 40 S5 shots. I need AT that can actually hit.

The Vulture and bare bones Valkyrie are both 160. I run my Valks with Lascannon and Heavy Bolters so it's 188. I think
you pay a lot for the ability to transport in this edition.

Vendetta is 230.

Vendetta is pretty awful. I be even tried it in hover mode next to Yarrick but at that point, it's fragile and very expensive for BS4+ it actually ended up winning me the game because my opponent neutered it and then just ignored it but I loaded a troop squad in it and dumping them off on an OBJ.

Which brings me to your statement "I need AT that can actually hit. ". This is Guard's biggest weakness in my opinion. Our AT is terribly unreliable and when Knight Crusaders are cutting huge swathes of your list apart every turn, unreliable AT just doesn't cut it! What have you been using for reliable AT?

Still on a roll with these 4 man company command squad lascannon teams. A lot of opponents seem really reluctant to shoot them because it's 'just four guys'. Especially when I'm running 100 other infantry models towards objectives and have tanks/arty for them to deal with. I'm finally going to see how they do in a tournament environment tomorrow.

Edit: Also, hitting fliers on 4's with lascannons feels so good.

Yeah that might be our best option. And we need to use our plethora of units to confuse our opponents and hopefully they make the wrong Target priority list.

In a tournament it's too late once they learn what they should have targeted because you only play them once. Like that Russ that looked scary but didn't do anything all game.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
What else were they using besides Earthshaker Platforms?

I think 108 points for the Basilisk vs 80 points for the platform seem pretty similar given the 4 less wounds, 1 less armor save, no heavy bolter, and can't move.

I'm guessing it's just a case of min-maxing and the sheer number of conscripts protecting the big guns.

I couldn't see the 3rd list, but one was using artillery platforms, the other used elysians.

I could see Elysians being very tough to beat.

I've tried the quad mortars and heavy mortars. They sucked for their points but were fun and looked cool. The quad launcher is MORE than an Earthshaker and the heavy mortar is almost the same cost. They are nowhere near as viable! It's disappointing.

sossen wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
SM (ultramarines at least) are still in the top 5 armies, if not top 3 or better. They win tournaments even without the 5+ stormravens lists.

Do you have any links to lists that won after the FAQ? Would like to see what they run.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/08/10/top-itc-tournament-lists-july-2017/

The following 3 lists were SM without stormravens:

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Thomas-Hegstrom-Oakey-3rd-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Colin-McDade-2nd-Overall-Warzone-Houston-2017.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Cyle-Thompson-2nd-Overall-Slaughterhouse-2017.pdf

All based around guilliman re-rolls. 2nd and 3rd places, which are huge results in this kind of tournaments, with lots of power players, and ending 1st, 2nd or 3rd is just a matter of luck or player's skills, because lists in top positions have basically the same efficiency. I bet in other non official tournaments SM are still winning a lot.

So out of all the ITC results compiled on that site, 6 are ultramarines, 1 are blood angels, and 1 are regular space Marines. To 4 Astra Militarum. Although that may decrease in the future as the flyer spam is not as viable anymore.

Those lists make me sick to look at. So gross. If someone asked me to play a game with them and I saw 6 twin assault Cannon razorbacks, 6 Taurox Primes, or nothing but artillery and conscripts I'd be like, "nah, you win."

You know, come to think of it, it is more than a little odd that scions just get to deep strike for free, whereas space marines have to pay ~100 for a drop pod.

That's every ig player i play lol.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
You know, come to think of it, it is more than a little odd that scions just get to deep strike for free, whereas space marines have to pay ~100 for a drop pod.

You're confusing a single, specific unit in an army that has deep strike built in with a transport that gives 10 infantry of your choosing the ability to deep strike. Also, they've had it in some form or another at least 3 editions now, so it should quickly be leaving "odd" I'd think.

A better comparison would be Assault Marines, which get it with jump packs (at 16 ppm) unless you take the jump packs off of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or any of the, what, 3 types of terminators, who also have it built in?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or Scouts. Really, not technically the same thing, but it's sort of the poor man's infiltration, which doesn't really exist much anymore either.

Edited for accuracy.

All marine units are super inefficient compared to scions as an additonal slap in the face.

And, I mean, Inceptors and Vanguard too, but they're basically just different types of assault marines.

Actually, Reivers pay 2ppm for deep strike.

Assault marines pay 3ppm for deep strike + fly.

You're right. Reivers do pay for it. I wish they'd stop labeling equipment as special rules.

And I'm going to argue that Assault Marines don't pay for deep strike. I'm going to make the argument that they get a 3 point refund if they don't have it. That's semantics, but it's MY semantics.

 daedalus wrote:
That's semantics, but it's MY semantics.

I mean I get why you say this, but I'm just wanting to keep from having newer players be confused. In the current setup, assault marines are 13 ppm, and can optionally pay 3ppm for jump packs.

That's legitimate. I have corrected my wrongitudes.

How does this thread always end up being about marines?