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Made in us
Douglas Bader






Sigh. Are we really going to keep making the same stupid FW arguments in 8th edition? No, FW is not "illegal", it's part of the game just like anything else GW publishes. Your personal dislike for certain rules does not give them special status. No, FW is not magically less balanced than everything else, remember all the epic whine threads about conscripts, GW dropping an emergency FAQ to change the flyer rules and deal with an abusive list, etc? FW has their balance mistakes, just like everything else GW publishes.

That said, death riders aren't breaking the game. They're a one-dimensional unit that is worthless if it doesn't get its one trick to work. They have no ranged firepower, marginal combat ability if they don't get the charge, and poor durability against heavy weapons. They're good, but "it killed a Rhino in one turn" is not a compelling argument that they are broken. A Rhino is a cheap cannon fodder tank, it's supposed to die in one turn.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

This sounds like just another case of "IG unit X used to be easy to wipe but now it can actually HURT me!!1!1!!1"
Nothing to see here citizens, move along now.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





 Talamare wrote:
Forge World is broken

Don't play Forge World


Girlyman is broken do t play spec Marines. Magnus too, don't play anyone who has a stronger army at all. That's broken.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





smegma_crunch wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
Forge World is broken

Don't play Forge World


Girlyman is broken do t play spec Marines. Magnus too, don't play anyone who has a stronger army at all. That's broken.


I expect you're expecting me to counter argue with a "omg no"

but Girlyman is broken, and Imperium (as a keyword) is also broken


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Talamare wrote:
smegma_crunch wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
Forge World is broken

Don't play Forge World


Girlyman is broken do t play spec Marines. Magnus too, don't play anyone who has a stronger army at all. That's broken.


I expect you're expecting me to counter argue with a "omg no"

but Girlyman is broken, and Imperium (as a keyword) is also broken

Ergo your argument is wrong and you should come up with something better and with actual substance.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 Talamare wrote:
smegma_crunch wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
Forge World is broken

Don't play Forge World


Girlyman is broken do t play spec Marines. Magnus too, don't play anyone who has a stronger army at all. That's broken.


I expect you're expecting me to counter argue with a "omg no"

but Girlyman is broken, and Imperium (as a keyword) is also broken


So your argument is "all the things that are atypically powerful or which I don't like are broken, don't play them"? Well, that's very insightful, thank you.

Do feel free to continue to only play games where your opponent's list meets your approval. We'll try not to judge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 06:30:34


 
   
Made in no
Dakka Veteran




Death riders are decent, but not broken. Chaos bikers are 25ppm, get with the times FW hate is juvenile and irrational.
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




GrafWattenburg wrote:
FW hate is juvenile and irrational.


I agree. But recognizing the obvious pay-to-win aspect of ForgeWorld and their record of poorly balanced rule making is not.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
smegma_crunch wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
Forge World is broken

Don't play Forge World


Girlyman is broken do t play spec Marines. Magnus too, don't play anyone who has a stronger army at all. That's broken.


I expect you're expecting me to counter argue with a "omg no"

but Girlyman is broken, and Imperium (as a keyword) is also broken

Ergo your argument is wrong and you should come up with something better and with actual substance.

Wrong thread to provide substance.
It's been proven that both aspects of the game are broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
smegma_crunch wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
Forge World is broken

Don't play Forge World


Girlyman is broken do t play spec Marines. Magnus too, don't play anyone who has a stronger army at all. That's broken.


I expect you're expecting me to counter argue with a "omg no"

but Girlyman is broken, and Imperium (as a keyword) is also broken


So your argument is "all the things that are atypically powerful or which I don't like are broken, don't play them"? Well, that's very insightful, thank you.

Do feel free to continue to only play games where your opponent's list meets your approval. We'll try not to judge.

Closer to
"Things that have been proven to be broken levels of overpowered are broken levels of overpowered" but feel to keep attacking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Comparing them to Bikers was a Mistake

Compare them to Rough Riders

+1 WS
+1 T
+1 Armor Save
5+++ FNP vs Bolter or smaller
2 Attacks with the S5 AP-2, instead of just 1
+1 S on the 2 Non-Lance Attacks
Immune to Morale losses from being Shot at
+1 BS on the Sarge (is this real or Battlescribe error?)

Penalty - No option to take 2 Special Weapons.

That's a lot to gain for only spending 6 points.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/15 10:02:29



6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Ha. So all Forgeworld has been proven to be broken?

Considering that most is rubbish this is clearly incorrect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pismakron wrote:
GrafWattenburg wrote:
FW hate is juvenile and irrational.


I agree. But recognizing the obvious pay-to-win aspect of ForgeWorld and their record of poorly balanced rule making is not.


How is buying the couple of OP units from FW any more pay to win than doing the same with GW?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 12:21:49


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Talamare wrote:
That's a lot to gain for only spending 6 points.


6 points and giving up the special weapons that make normal rough riders a relevant unit even when they don't make a charge. Death riders are better at charging, but they're definitely more of a single-purpose unit.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Talamare wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
smegma_crunch wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
Forge World is broken

Don't play Forge World


Girlyman is broken do t play spec Marines. Magnus too, don't play anyone who has a stronger army at all. That's broken.


I expect you're expecting me to counter argue with a "omg no"

but Girlyman is broken, and Imperium (as a keyword) is also broken

Ergo your argument is wrong and you should come up with something better and with actual substance.

Wrong thread to provide substance.
It's been proven that both aspects of the game are broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
smegma_crunch wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
Forge World is broken

Don't play Forge World


Girlyman is broken do t play spec Marines. Magnus too, don't play anyone who has a stronger army at all. That's broken.


I expect you're expecting me to counter argue with a "omg no"

but Girlyman is broken, and Imperium (as a keyword) is also broken


So your argument is "all the things that are atypically powerful or which I don't like are broken, don't play them"? Well, that's very insightful, thank you.

Do feel free to continue to only play games where your opponent's list meets your approval. We'll try not to judge.

Closer to
"Things that have been proven to be broken levels of overpowered are broken levels of overpowered" but feel to keep attacking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Comparing them to Bikers was a Mistake

Compare them to Rough Riders

+1 WS
+1 T
+1 Armor Save
5+++ FNP vs Bolter or smaller
2 Attacks with the S5 AP-2, instead of just 1
+1 S on the 2 Non-Lance Attacks
Immune to Morale losses from being Shot at
+1 BS on the Sarge (is this real or Battlescribe error?)

Penalty - No option to take 2 Special Weapons.

That's a lot to gain for only spending 6 points.

Oh yeah, it's been proven SO many times that FW is broken. Like that one unit. And that one other unit. You know, those ones named every time I ask someone to list their broken units.

Go ahead and start so I can prove you wrong, please.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Boston, MA

Even the comparison to regular Rough riders is daft... a fragile dedicated assault unit that is only good when it charges is FAR less useful than calvary with plasmaguns and a plasmapistol that has no need to charge.

Further 6points per model difference is a pretty big deal. No the sergeant doesn't get +1 BS either, that must be a Battlescribe error.

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 Gunzhard wrote:
Calvary is finally worth taking for perhaps the first time ever, the points are fine. The OP argument is ridiculous as is the comparison to chaos bikes.

They're a dedicated assault unit, compare them to any Tyranid troop, in fact the speeds and utility of these units are far more comparable than to that of bikes; and the nid units are still probably better and definitely cheaper.


The general difference is these are extremely durable melee assault units. At 16 points, 2w T4 and a 4+ as well as the situational fnp they are very durable for cost compared to a nasty melee unit like zerkers, who they are fairly comparable to offensively. Not as lethal, particularly past the charge, but being the same cost, more durable, and fast enough they don't need a transport makes them arguably better.
   
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preston

 Gunzhard wrote:
Even the comparison to regular Rough riders is daft... a fragile dedicated assault unit that is only good when it charges is FAR less useful than calvary with plasmaguns and a plasmapistol that has no need to charge.

Ahh, but do not forget that the Death Riders will always be in the perfect position for a turn 1 charge, and there will be this magical terrain that always blocks enemy line of fire and countercharge units but mystically vanishes when the Death Riders move, and they will always get the perfect number to assault with and never fail the charge and they will never lose a model to overwatch and they will always hit with most of their attacks and the unit hit will never do very well in response and there will always be a Commissar somewhere near by.....

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




They don't need to be perfect and always get the charge, they are harder to kill per point than normal guard infantry, which is already fairly tough. They can absorb casualties really well unless the enemy has something tailor made to kill them (autocannons and overcharged plasma for example). Even then that's a lot of guns firing at the fairly cheap death riders as opposed to your more expensive big guns.
   
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I don't know if the issue is the OPness of Death Riders or the underpoweredness of other Bikes/Cavalry. They're good, but using Chaos Bikes (I haven't seen whether they got the price drop in the Codex loyalist bikers did, but loyalist bikers went down from 33ppm to 27ppm and are still mediocre) as a point of comparison isn't necessarily an accurate picture.

I don't think either one is wildly miscosted, comparing the two makes them look further off than they are because they're miscosted in opposite directions. If Death Riders were around 20-22ppm and Marine bikes were around 25-27ppm both units would be fairer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 15:33:59


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Boston, MA

SilverAlien wrote:
 Gunzhard wrote:
Calvary is finally worth taking for perhaps the first time ever, the points are fine. The OP argument is ridiculous as is the comparison to chaos bikes.

They're a dedicated assault unit, compare them to any Tyranid troop, in fact the speeds and utility of these units are far more comparable than to that of bikes; and the nid units are still probably better and definitely cheaper.


The general difference is these are extremely durable melee assault units. At 16 points, 2w T4 and a 4+ as well as the situational fnp they are very durable for cost compared to a nasty melee unit like zerkers, who they are fairly comparable to offensively. Not as lethal, particularly past the charge, but being the same cost, more durable, and fast enough they don't need a transport makes them arguably better.


Are you seriously comparing them to berzerkers? "Fairly comparable to offensively" - have we crossed into Traditio satire land?

Toughness 4, with a 4+ armour save and situational fnp is hardly "extremely durable", even with 2 wounds. The reason I mentioned Tyranids is because they are much closer to function, speed and utility of the nid troops... The genestealers 5++ invul is far better than a 4+ save in a game with so many modifiers.

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 Gunzhard wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
 Gunzhard wrote:
Calvary is finally worth taking for perhaps the first time ever, the points are fine. The OP argument is ridiculous as is the comparison to chaos bikes.

They're a dedicated assault unit, compare them to any Tyranid troop, in fact the speeds and utility of these units are far more comparable than to that of bikes; and the nid units are still probably better and definitely cheaper.


The general difference is these are extremely durable melee assault units. At 16 points, 2w T4 and a 4+ as well as the situational fnp they are very durable for cost compared to a nasty melee unit like zerkers, who they are fairly comparable to offensively. Not as lethal, particularly past the charge, but being the same cost, more durable, and fast enough they don't need a transport makes them arguably better.


Are you seriously comparing them to berzerkers? "Fairly comparable to offensively" - have we crossed into Traditio satire land?

Toughness 4, with a 4+ armour save and situational fnp is hardly "extremely durable", even with 2 wounds. The reason I mentioned Tyranids is because they are much closer to function, speed and utility of the nid troops... The genestealers 5++ invul is far better than a 4+ save in a game with so many modifiers.


(You could also compare them to Shining Spears, who have more shooting instead of the mount attacks, better S/AP on the lances, Fly, more speed, and a 4++ against shooting instead of the FNP, but who are otherwise pretty comparable in role and performance, and who are 43ppm. Looking at the stats a Shining Spear should be closer to 1.5-2x the cost of a Death Rider, not almost 3x.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 15:36:39


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
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Boston, MA

Shooting will always be better than a dedicated assault though. A unit that needs to assault to kill risks far more.

Which is why regular Rough Riders with plasma will always be more useful than a situational dedicated assault unit that is only good on the turn it charges, if it charges.

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Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Why is forge world more broken than standard GW stuff? Forgeworld stuff always typically comes with "upgrades" and special rules to a lot of GW units. This would be okay if GW could properly cost things but they can't. So the most broken things will always be forge-world because untis with more special rules and options are more broken than units without special rules and more options. GW + FW are all terrible at pointing things though - I will agree with that. On average the forge world option is better though - that is pretty undeniable.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Metalica

 Gunzhard wrote:
They're Strength bonus weapon only works on the charge, otherwise their S3.

Oh god, that physically hurt me.

 
   
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Boston, MA

 Purifier wrote:
 Gunzhard wrote:
They're Strength bonus weapon only works on the charge, otherwise their S3.

Oh god, that physically hurt me.


Haha thanks fixed it now, my phone autocorrects those for some reason, I need better proof reading obviously.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 15:47:33


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Springfield, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why is forge world more broken than standard GW stuff? Forgeworld stuff always typically comes with "upgrades" and special rules to a lot of GW units. This would be okay if GW could properly cost things but they can't. So the most broken things will always be forge-world because untis with more special rules and options are more broken than units without special rules and more options. GW + FW are all terrible at pointing things though - I will agree with that. On average the forge world option is better though - that is pretty undeniable.


I'm going to deny it.

No, on average the Forge World option isn't better though. I would even deny that there are 'forge world options' for things - most of what Forge World has are simply different units, rather than replacements for existing units, save some of the IG stuff.
   
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On moon miranda.

Funny how relatively rare FW has been i through the last several editions of the game in winning tournament lists, especially on any consistent basis, yet still is bemoaned as broken routinely.

FW has some poorly balanced stuff. Main GW does too. There is zero evidence that FW, as a whole, is worse about this than GW. Especially in any sort of consistent basis.

As for the Death Riders vs Rough Riders, a 6pt increase may not seem like much to some, but thats a 60% price bump, with the loss of the ranged weapons options that make normal RR's a mildly usable multirole unit.

They're also a relatively rare unit most people will never encounter

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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 Gunzhard wrote:
Are you seriously comparing them to berzerkers? "Fairly comparable to offensively" - have we crossed into Traditio satire land?

Toughness 4, with a 4+ armour save and situational fnp is hardly "extremely durable", even with 2 wounds. The reason I mentioned Tyranids is because they are much closer to function, speed and utility of the nid troops... The genestealers 5++ invul is far better than a 4+ save in a game with so many modifiers.


I used that as an example in part because they are the same price as stock zerkers and part because it illustrates how much damage they can do.

Each rider has 4 attacks, 2 with the lance and 2 with mount, and a laspistol shot. Zerkers get 6 attacks per round, all with the chainsword which is between the lance and mount attacks in power, plus a bolt pistol shot. So the zerkers have more attacks, but the lances are strong enough they close the gap, particularly against any multi wound model. So while the zerkers are still the obvious choice for pure offensive power, the riders aren't that far behind truth be told. When you consider the riders also don't need to pay for a transport and can thus squeeze in a couple extra models, I feel fairly comfortable saying they are in the same ballpark.

Of course, after the first turn charge the death riders take a big hit. That's the big difference, on the charge it's actually closer than you think.

As for durability, genestealers are far more fragile. Even against say a heavy bolter, which ignores both the fnp and reduces the armor save but not invulnerable, so they take the same number of wounds, you are still paying 8 per wound for death korps versus 12 (I think) per genestealer. That's a big gap, and that's the more neutral result (autocannons and plasma have a smaller advantage to genestealers, while normal str 3/4 weapons cranks up the death rider's durability insanely high by comparison). Zerkers are even worse of course, given they cost the same for half as many wounds with a mere 4+->3+ upgrade.

Death riders are very powerful for their cost.

   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Why is forge world more broken than standard GW stuff? Forgeworld stuff always typically comes with "upgrades" and special rules to a lot of GW units. This would be okay if GW could properly cost things but they can't. So the most broken things will always be forge-world because untis with more special rules and options are more broken than units without special rules and more options. GW + FW are all terrible at pointing things though - I will agree with that. On average the forge world option is better though - that is pretty undeniable.


...?

The FW units people complain about are broken, yes, but in general? Do you see my Corsair Reavers (9pt Guardians with a wildly situational reaction move after killing a model in Overwatch, a special weapon per five models, Ld6, and a 5pt sergeant tax for no reason) taking the world by storm? How about the Skyreavers (12pt Scourges with worse armour, worse Ld, fewer special weapons, no Power from Pain, no Deep Strike, and the aforementioned Sergeant tax)? And the Warp Hunter (merely good, by virtue of being a Manticore with 1/4 the firepower and half the range for twice the price)?

(The only FW unit I've used thus far that is straight-up better than a comparable GW unit is the Spartan, and that's only because the Land Raider Terminus is silly and ineffective.)

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 Xenomancers wrote:
Why is forge world more broken than standard GW stuff? Forgeworld stuff always typically comes with "upgrades" and special rules to a lot of GW units. This would be okay if GW could properly cost things but they can't. So the most broken things will always be forge-world because untis with more special rules and options are more broken than units without special rules and more options. GW + FW are all terrible at pointing things though - I will agree with that. On average the forge world option is better though - that is pretty undeniable.

I don't really see it. I guess it depends on what you mean by "on average", maybe, although both mainline GW and FW have a ton of terrible units. But I feel like if I'm making a list of problematic units, the big ones are mostly going to be mainline GW.

Like, at the start of 8th edition, what units were most overpowered? Probably Horrors, Razorwing Flocks, Stormravens, Guilliman, Magnus, that FW Tzeentch Daemon, Scions, Elysian Command Squads, Celestine, and probably the Gauss Pylon, right? You could stretch this further but I think you end up with a pretty similar ratio of GW to FW. This is mostly GW, and the FW Daemon and Gauss Pylon are huge and not the sort of thing most people are going to be seeing in normal games, while Elysians are very similar to Scions. It's true that GW has pretty promptly toned down Horrors, Razorwings, Stormravens, and Scions, though again I feel like most players are going to reasonably insist on the same Officer limitation for Elysians. Plasma squads are probably still too strong. And of course GW recently buffed Guilliman and Magnus.

What other FW stuff is such a problem? Basilisk platforms are good. Mortis and Mortis Contemptor Dreads seem generally better than regular Dreads, but they don't seem particularly overpowered relative to other factions' options. The Xiphon and Vulture are really solid. Repressors with their fire points probably contribute to Sisters being so good. Malefic Lords look like an error to me rather than FW actually thinking they're appropriately costed. I'm not sure that any of the other Chaos or Xenos stuff is particularly notable -- there's playable stuff but not much that seems worth complaining about. Maybe Eldar Scorpions, though again I'm not sure how often people are actually running into this kind of super-heavy.

Meanwhile mainline GW also has a ton of stuff which is very strong but not, like, completely broken. Off the top of my head: Razorbacks, Sisters in general, Conscripts (some people would argue that these belong in the completely broken list), Manticores, Guard Heavy Weapon Squads, Tau Commanders, Wave Serpents, Hemlocks, several Assassins, and a couple characters. And these are everywhere.

Death Riders strike me as pretty solid. Probably not something I'd use in most Imperium lists, but probably overall better than Rough Riders. And probably something that will get a lot less appealing when you want your brigade to all be the same <Regiment>.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/15 16:28:48


 
   
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Forgeworld had a history of OP units back in 4th-5th edition, and the stigma never left (although they generally admit to it being OP). Hence why if something in GW's thing is unbalanced, it's obviously a singular case trying to sell kits, but if Forge World has a single OP unit, the entire line (and I mean everything from Forge World) is OP by default.

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Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Even back in 4E or 5E, there wasnt much broken FW stuff, people just assumed it was or assumed FW meant titans and superheavies. Quite often what would happen is someone would show up with a proxy FW model and pretend rules that were monstrously overpowered or played the FW rules incorrectly, and then people would get mad at FW as a result, I had at least a dozen conversations with people where this was the case.

FW's catalog was also much smaller then, and literally everything that got pullex into the main GW line got better and more powerful rules in the process (valkyries, pirhanas, hydras, baneblades, etc)

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
 
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