Am I missing something, or are Krieg Death Riders insanely undercosted?

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**Unit1126PLL**

I have played with Baneblades since they existed in 3rd, and in 3rd they were kinda crap.

The biggest problem is unavailability of the rules allowed for cheaters, and the cheaters would make it seem like the unit was overpowered.

Perhaps the most egregious example was a conversation I had with a friend: "Man, structure points are OP." "Oh really, why's that?" "Because you have to kill it 3 times in a turn to kill it outright; I can't do that!" "No, you only have to kill it 3 times over the course of a game, and it suffers degrading damage the whole time." "Oh, really? A friend said you had to do it in a turn or the tank's crew repaired it." "Oh, really.

"

EDIT: This is back before Apocalypse when the Baneblade was in the floppy soft-cover Imperial Armour 1 book and Structure Points had only just blossomed into existence as a Forge World rule.

**Eldarain**

I have found more often than not cheating ends up being a result of people's horrendous lack of reading comprehension.

**Xenomancers**

Dionysodorus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Why is forge world more broken than standard GW stuff? Forgeworld stuff always typically comes with "upgrades" and special rules to a lot of GW units. This would be okay if GW could properly cost things but they can't. So the most broken things will always be forge-world because untis with more special rules and options are more broken than units without special rules and more options. GW + FW are all terrible at pointing things though - I will agree with that. On average the forge world option is better though - that is pretty undeniable.

I don't really see it. I guess it depends on what you mean by "on average", maybe, although both mainline GW and FW have a ton of terrible units. But I feel like if I'm making a list of problematic units, the big ones are mostly going to be mainline GW.

Like, at the start of 8th edition, what units were most overpowered? Probably Horrors, Razorwing Flocks, Stormravens, Guilliman, Magnus, that FW Tzeentch Daemon, Scions, Elysian Command Squads, Celestine, and probably the Gauss Pylon, right? You could stretch this further but I think you end up with a pretty similar ratio of GW to FW. This is mostly GW, and the FW Daemon and Gauss Pylon are huge and not the sort of thing most people are going to be seeing in normal games, while Elysians are very similar to Scions. It's true that GW has pretty promptly toned down Horrors, Razorwings, Stormravens, and Scions, though again I feel like most players are going to reasonably insist on the same Officer limitation for Elysians. Plasma squads are probably still too strong. And of course GW recently buffed Guilliman and Magnus.

What other FW stuff is such a problem? Basilisk platforms are good. Mortis and Mortis Contemptor Dreads seem generally better than regular Dreads, but they don't seem particularly overpowered relative to other factions' options. The Xiphon and Vulture are really solid. Repressors with their fire points probably contribute to Sisters being so good. Malefic Lords look like an error to me rather than FW actually thinking they're appropriately costed. I'm not sure that any of the other Chaos or Xenos stuff is particularly notable -- there's playable stuff but not much that seems worth complaining about. Maybe Eldar Scorpions, though again I'm not sure how often people are actually running into this kind of super-heavy.

Meanwhile mainline GW also has a ton of stuff which is very strong but not, like, completely broken. Off the top of my head: Razorbacks, Sisters in general, Conscripts (some people would argue that these belong in the completely broken list), Manticores, Guard Heavy Weapon Squads, Tau Commanders, Wave Serpents, Hemlocks, several Assassins, and a couple characters. And these are everywhere.

Death Riders strike me as pretty solid. Probably not something I'd use in most Imperium lists, but probably overall better than Rough Riders. And probably something that will get a lot less appealing when you want your brigade to all be the same <Regiment>.

I'm not picking at individual units. More GW as a whole - having no real mechanic for how the cost units and weapons. FW has a higher margin of error just due to the sheer amount of rules they create. They have like 5-6 variants of every tank. Special versions of every unit just by adding some special rules - sometimes with the rules not even making sense. Sometimes they over cost it - sometimes they under-cost it. Seeing how the general idea behind forge world units is to make units better by giving them unique weapons and giving you more options - it's really no surprise that units like the y'vahra exist. More options creates more errors. Plus they cost about 2x or more than the GW counterparts so they really have an incentive to make the rules better too.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Why is forge world more broken than standard GW stuff? Forgeworld stuff always typically comes with "upgrades" and special rules to a lot of GW units. This would be okay if GW could properly cost things but they can't. So the most broken things will always be forge-world because untis with more special rules and options are more broken than units without special rules and more options. GW + FW are all terrible at pointing things though - I will agree with that. On average the forge world option is better though - that is pretty undeniable.

I don't really see it. I guess it depends on what you mean by "on average", maybe, although both mainline GW and FW have a ton of terrible units. But I feel like if I'm making a list of problematic units, the big ones are mostly going to be mainline GW.

Like, at the start of 8th edition, what units were most overpowered? Probably Horrors, Razorwing Flocks, Stormravens, Guilliman, Magnus, that FW Tzeentch Daemon, Scions, Elysian Command Squads, Celestine, and probably the Gauss Pylon, right? You could stretch this further but I think you end up with a pretty similar ratio of GW to FW. This is mostly GW, and the FW Daemon and Gauss Pylon are huge and not the sort of thing most people are going to be seeing in normal games, while Elysians are very similar to Scions. It's true that GW has pretty promptly toned down Horrors, Razorwings, Stormravens, and Scions, though again I feel like most players are going to reasonably insist on the same Officer limitation for Elysians. Plasma squads are probably still too strong. And of course GW recently buffed Guilliman and Magnus.

What other FW stuff is such a problem? Basilisk platforms are good. Mortis and Mortis Contemptor Dreads seem generally better than regular Dreads, but they don't seem particularly overpowered relative to other factions' options. The Xiphon and Vulture are really solid. Repressors with their fire points probably contribute to Sisters being so good. Malefic Lords look like an error to me rather than FW actually thinking they're appropriately costed. I'm not sure that any of the other Chaos or Xenos stuff is particularly notable -- there's playable stuff but not much that seems worth complaining about. Maybe Eldar Scorpions, though again I'm not sure how often people are actually running into this kind of super-heavy.

Meanwhile mainline GW also has a ton of stuff which is very strong but not, like, completely broken. Off the top of my head: Razorbacks, Sisters in general, Conscripts (some people would argue that these belong in the completely broken list), Manticores, Guard Heavy Weapon Squads, Tau Commanders, Wave Serpents, Hemlocks, several Assassins, and a couple characters. And these are everywhere.

Death Riders strike me as pretty solid. Probably not something I'd use in most Imperium lists, but probably overall better than Rough Riders. And probably something that will get a lot less appealing when you want your brigade to all be the same <Regiment>.
I'm not picking at individual units. More GW as a whole - having no real mechanic for how the cost units and weapons. FW has a higher margin of error just due to the sheer amount of rules they create. They have like 5-6 variants of every tank. Special versions of every unit just by adding some special rules - sometimes with the rules not even making sense. Sometimes they over cost it - sometimes they under-cost it. Seeing how the general idea behind forge world units is to make units better by giving them unique weapons and giving you more options - it's really no surprise that units like the y'vahra exist. More options creates more errors. Plus they cost about 2x or more than the GW counterparts so they really have an incentive to make the rules better too.

None of what you said follows. How does "giving them unique weapons and more options" make them better?

Lastly - yes, it increases the potential for error. I suppose you'd be against reading a book with more than 1 page, as well, because there is also more potential error for every page you add.

I'm comfortable with balance being sacrificed on the altar of options and fluff. I am not comfortable with options and fluff being sacrificed on the altar of balance.

**Scott-S6**

Xenomancers wrote:
Seeing how the general idea behind forge world units is to make units better by giving them unique weapons and giving you more options

No. Most FW stuff is based on the premise of things that ought to exist if the military aspect of the 40K setting was a bit more serious and many of the units they create have terrible rules.

Have you even read the FW indexes? The overwhelming majority of units are garbage. There is zero reason to buy them other than you like the models. (very telling how few units show up in tournaments considering how big the catalogue is)

Occasionally something OP slips through and the next time it appears in a book it's usually nerfed into oblivion.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I remember their experimental rules were more often than not broken. But again, they were pretty up front with it (and the name should have been a tip-off to people).

The only thing was that FW units were often balanced against other FW units; the original flyer rules were heinous unless you had FW anti-air equipment, in which case they were basically flying tissue boxes.

The other thing was that FW often refered back to existing GW rules but, due to their slower release schedules, often were out of date, so you got weird interactions. Anyone remember that brief time where the Hierophant Biotitan had a 3+ INVULNERABLE save because it had Warp Field but forgot to update it between 4th and 5th?

**Unit1126PLL**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I remember their experimental rules were more often than not broken. But again, they were pretty up front with it (and the name should have been a tip-off to people).

The only thing was that FW units were often balanced against other FW units; the original flyer rules were heinous unless you had FW anti-air equipment, in which case they were basically flying tissue boxes.

The other thing was that FW often refered back to existing GW rules but, due to their slower release schedules, often were out of date, so you got weird interactions. Anyone remember that brief time where the Hierophant Biotitan had a 3+ INVULNERABLE save because it had Warp Field but forgot to update it between 4th and 5th?

Yeah the constant slipping and sliding past eachother of GW's and FW's rules was kind of a huge pain in the nuts. There was a time when there were even two different points costs for the same unit at the same time for a long while, depending which book you got it out of.

**NivlacSupreme**

It may be broken, but if I were you I wouldn't care.

It looks so cool.

**Melissia**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
None of what you said follows. How does "giving them unique weapons and more options" make them better?

I agree with you for the most part, but I would argue that the unit is better if given unique weapons and more options. Not necessarily stronger, but certainly better.

Take for example 'Ard Boyz. Orks can't field units of boyz with a 4+ save any more. Yes, that 4+ save was overpriced for what it did-- but even so Boyz would be a better / more enjoyable choice if they had the option.

**Unit1126PLL**

Melissia wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
None of what you said follows. How does "giving them unique weapons and more options" make them better?
I agree with you for the most part, but I would argue that the unit is better if given unique weapons and more options. Not necessarily stronger, but certainly better.

Take for example 'Ard Boyz. Orks can't field units of boyz with a 4+ save any more. Yes, that 4+ save was overpriced for what it did-- but even so Boyz would be a better / more enjoyable choice if they had the option.

True, but I also don't think being able to replace a Space Marine's Boltgun with a Lasgun for free really makes them better.

The option itself has to serve a function, and most of the FW options really don't change much. (E.G. the Arkurion-pattern Stormsword, which gets exactly one more option than the GW one and that is to replace its lascannons with heavy flamers if it takes sponsons

).

**Azuza001**

commisaro wrote:
sossen wrote:
They look like they are treading the edge of top-tier cost-efficiency but I'd have to see them being played. Does their deep strike allow them to move afterwards? Do they get to reroll charge distance? Do they get to charge after advancing? Without any of these three they are probably not going to achieve anything on turn 1 and have to expose themselves for at least one turn in order to get to charge.

They don't have those, but they're also really resilient against shooting, with T4, 2W, 4+ save, 5+ FnP against small-arms fire, and immunity to Morale from shooting. I mean, yeah, if I had built my army specifically to counter them I could bring a bunch of Autocannons.

And also there are 6 units of them, so while they wont all make their charge, some of them probably will. And anything that is charged by them, with the exception of heavy armour, dies. One unit took out a Rhino without any trouble.

Sounds like a job for supercharged plasma. You double their strength so wound on a 2, deal 2 wounds so each hit and wound is a kill, and it should take care of their armor save to boot. Get a squad with plasma, add the chaos equ of a captain to reroll 1's, and blast them like the grots they are

. Point wise your going to cost more but it should do the job easy. Or use something like a rhino to tarpit them down and they will either have to retreat to be able to do something next turn or stay in and get shot at when you decide to remove them.

Honestly these guys sound awesome but if that's all he has a few t7 vehicles like defilers and dreadnoughts should be able to do some serious damage and survive their charge assuming they get it over you.