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I played a game today where my friend's list consisted of 6 10-man squads of Krieg Death Riders. Now, I don't like to cry "broken", so I would love to be convinced otherwise but... these seem insanely undercosted:

For 16 points per model you get:

- T4, 2W
- 2 attacks: strength 5, AP -2, d3 damage attacks on the charge
- 2 additional str 4 attacks from the mount
- 4+ save
- 5+ FnP against any attack str 4 or less
- Ignore Morale from shooting attacks
- Can take orders from commanders, which are quite powerful.
- If you take a Command Squad, 6 of these rider units can Flank (Deepstrike within 7" of table edge)

All that for 16 points per model.

Compare that to, say, a bare-bones Chaos Biker, which is double to cost at 33 points, for which you get:

- 1 higher toughness (T5)
- 1 better save (3+ vs 4+)
- A combi-bolter (Rapid-fire 2, str4)
- 2 fewer attacks, and the 2 attacks are just str 4, no AP or extra damage.
- No FnP, no morale benefit, no flanking maneuver...

And it costs double.

This seems stupid broken. Everything these things charged died. I could counter them if I build a list specifically to counter them (autocannons would be good), but against my all-comers list... There's so many of them. They're so cheap. They just wreck gak when they charge.

Am I missing something?

He owns 60 of them? Damn.

Luckilly fw is illegal.

That is a lot of money for a 'one-trick-pony' army - pun intended.

His army is converted, so he's not paying the FW prices, but still expensive.

Forge World is broken

Don't play Forge World

Well... what's your "all-corners" list look like?

Deathriders certainly have a lot going for them, but they're not infallible. And while they certainly come up favourably in comparison to the Chaos bikers, you're comparing two units with different niches (shock melee cavalry to ranged harassment and area control).

I could see them going up to 20 points per model fairly reasonably, but to say that they're 'insanely' under costed is too much.

Normally I'd say forgeworld is usually fine.. But 8th's balance is kinda out of whack right now with them.

Take Khorne Berzerkers.
- 3 Attacks, can fight twice in fight phase
- strenght 5, no "feel no pain" for riders.
- Extra attacks againts imperium hit roll of 6+
- Plus legion traits from whatever legion you choose.

Probably one of the strongest, if not most powerful assault unit in 8th. edition.

They look compared to chaos bikers because chaos bikers aren't very good. Compared to other options within guard they are still top tier for sure though.

The hate for FW is real, lol.

Yeah, they're pretty good units, got a bunch of perhaps uneeded buffs with 8 (the mount attacks, for one, since they can use their lances as often as they charge).

Wow.
Yeah... I would ask to house rule the points for those.

commisaro wrote:
I played a game today where my friend's list consisted of 6 10-man squads of Krieg Death Riders. Now, I don't like to cry "broken", so I would love to be convinced otherwise but... these seem insanely undercosted:

For 16 points per model you get:

- T4, 2W
- 2 attacks: strength 5, AP -2, d3 damage attacks on the charge
- 2 additional str 4 attacks from the mount
- 4+ save
- 5+ FnP against any attack str 4 or less
- Ignore Morale from shooting attacks
- Can take orders from commanders, which are quite powerful.
- If you take a Command Squad, 6 of these rider units can Flank (Deepstrike within 7" of table edge)

All that for 16 points per model.

Compare that to, say, a bare-bones Chaos Biker, which is double to cost at 33 points, for which you get:

- 1 higher toughness (T5)
- 1 better save (3+ vs 4+)
- A combi-bolter (Rapid-fire 2, str4)
- 2 fewer attacks, and the 2 attacks are just str 4, no AP or extra damage.
- No FnP, no morale benefit, no flanking maneuver...

And it costs double.

This seems stupid broken. Everything these things charged died. I could counter them if I build a list specifically to counter them (autocannons would be good), but against my all-comers list... There's so many of them. They're so cheap. They just wreck gak when they charge.

Am I missing something?

Your comparison sucks. Death Riders are good, but a closer comparison might be Scout Bikes. They're 23 points but better BS, better Ld, toughness 5 which is big, a LOT faster and can dish out major shooty goodness for a small fast unit, with combat blades they also get 2 attacks. They can take Astartes Grenade Launchers, combi sergeants and have access to great SM buffs.

Death Riders are, as someone else put it, a one - trick pony. Their Strength bonus weapon only works on the charge, otherwise they're S3.

I think Death Riders are finally pointed correctly.

I have no problem with them, and would take rough riders with plasma guns over them. They're cheaper and can all outflank (though not as tough or as strong in CC)

Pretty sure Bikers got a discount in the new codex.

They seem efficient but at the same time they are just T4 dudes

you can kill a marine right?

They're a unit the only works in a very specific manner. If you shoot them to death, charge them first, or survive the first round of combat, they're not terribly impressive. Most IG orders are absolutely wasted on them.

Chaos Bikers are a different unit with different armament and a different purpose.

Death Riders can be really good if used really well in one specific role and will be absolutely wasted otherwise. The same is not true of Chaos bikers.

The talk of FW being overpowered or illegal is rather absurd, especially over DKoK death riders...

Well no again chaos bikers are garbage. Don't pull the "different role" bit, they are hot garbage. Pretending chaos bikers are useful or costed correctly leads to this sort of confusion.

They look like they are treading the edge of top-tier cost-efficiency but I'd have to see them being played. Does their deep strike allow them to move afterwards? Do they get to reroll charge distance? Do they get to charge after advancing? Without any of these three they are probably not going to achieve anything on turn 1 and have to expose themselves for at least one turn in order to get to charge.

Angra wrote:
Take Khorne Berzerkers.
- 3 Attacks, can fight twice in fight phase
- strenght 5, no "feel no pain" for riders.
- Extra attacks againts imperium hit roll of 6+
- Plus legion traits from whatever legion you choose.

Probably one of the strongest, if not most powerful assault unit in 8th. edition.

Until sales go flat. Then comes the "adjustment" in the name of "balance".

sossen wrote:
They look like they are treading the edge of top-tier cost-efficiency but I'd have to see them being played. Does their deep strike allow them to move afterwards? Do they get to reroll charge distance? Do they get to charge after advancing? Without any of these three they are probably not going to achieve anything on turn 1 and have to expose themselves for at least one turn in order to get to charge.

They don't have those, but they're also really resilient against shooting, with T4, 2W, 4+ save, 5+ FnP against small-arms fire, and immunity to Morale from shooting. I mean, yeah, if I had built my army specifically to counter them I could bring a bunch of Autocannons.

And also there are 6 units of them, so while they wont all make their charge, some of them probably will. And anything that is charged by them, with the exception of heavy armour, dies. One unit took out a Rhino without any trouble.

Yes, those are under costed.

And you can't refuse to play against Forgeworld in tournaments.

Heavy bolters, assault cannons, heavy flamers. These are your efficiency options. If you're playing as vanilla marines, when you look up "perfect use case for grav weapons" you see a picture of this unit.

But no one takes grav anymore, at all.

commisaro wrote:

sossen wrote:
They look like they are treading the edge of top-tier cost-efficiency but I'd have to see them being played. Does their deep strike allow them to move afterwards? Do they get to reroll charge distance? Do they get to charge after advancing? Without any of these three they are probably not going to achieve anything on turn 1 and have to expose themselves for at least one turn in order to get to charge.

They don't have those, but they're also really resilient against shooting, with T4, 2W, 4+ save, 5+ FnP against small-arms fire, and immunity to Morale from shooting. I mean, yeah, if I had built my army specifically to counter them I could bring a bunch of Autocannons.

And also there are 6 units of them, so while they wont all make their charge, some of them probably will. And anything that is charged by them, with the exception of heavy armour, dies. One unit took out a Rhino without any trouble.

They're going to have a rough time killing conscripts and other horde units. With S5 and AP-2 they are especially effective vs MEQ, so if you play SM it was most likely a bad matchup. Especially 2+W units like primaris marines, terminators and characters will get smashed by those weapon stats.

Pancakey wrote:

Angra wrote:
Take Khorne Berzerkers.
- 3 Attacks, can fight twice in fight phase
- strenght 5, no "feel no pain" for riders.
- Extra attacks againts imperium hit roll of 6+
- Plus legion traits from whatever legion you choose.

Probably one of the strongest, if not most powerful assault unit in 8th. edition.

Until sales go flat. Then comes the "adjustment" in the name of "balance".

True, but balancing unit's make game more enjoyable for both sides, over performing unit's compared to unit's point cost just make those unit's
spammable and overpowered.

And on the topic. I own 10 Death Riders plus Death Riders command squad, but i'm going to use models in my Astra Militarum non vehicle army as a Rough Riders , which are performing similarly, but are cheaper.

sossen wrote:


They're going to have a rough time killing conscripts and other horde units. With S5 and AP-2 they are especially effective vs MEQ, so if you play SM it was most likely a bad matchup. Especially 2+W units like primaris marines, terminators and characters will get smashed by those weapon stats.

Why will they have trouble against hordes? They have 4 attacks each.

commisaro wrote:

sossen wrote:


They're going to have a rough time killing conscripts and other horde units. With S5 and AP-2 they are especially effective vs MEQ, so if you play SM it was most likely a bad matchup. Especially 2+W units like primaris marines, terminators and characters will get smashed by those weapon stats.

Why will they have trouble against hordes? They have 4 attacks each.

Were you in the conscript thread? Models with 3-4 attacks are powerless to stop the onrushing tide of unstoppable goons who are simultaneously able to protect a wide frontage and contract into a Schwerpunkt, as well as all be in rapid-fire and also in range of orders and a commissar, while that commissar is out of line of sight.

commisaro wrote:
Why will they have trouble against hordes? They have 4 attacks each.

They are only killing ~1.5 GEQ or ork boyz each on the charge, which is not a lot at their cost. The new berzerkers can kill ~3.4 GEQ each. With the riders' delayed charge they also risk taking casualties before they get the chance to deal any damage. They are not going to kill screens fast enough and melee hordes will probably out-melee them per pt, even if the riders get to charge first.

It looks like a good unit vs MEQ and similar elite armies but not hordes.

Cheap horde unti's can "tarpit" or charge block Rider's, for example you get ~60 conscripts at cost of 10 Riders.

There is a very long list of poorly balanced Forge World units. I don't know if these are that bad, but in general index bikers are a bit too expensive, which one should keep in mind D.

Calvary is finally worth taking for perhaps the first time ever, the points are fine. The OP argument is ridiculous as is the comparison to chaos bikes.

They're a dedicated assault unit, compare them to any Tyranid troop, in fact the speeds and utility of these units are far more comparable than to that of bikes; and the nid units are still probably better and definitely cheaper.