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I think many of the other vets here have sufficiently touched on it not being insurgency related, that I don't think I need to really go into things more.


I certainly believe, and am reading books of people who exhibited most of the same symptoms we call PTSD in combat vets, and these are books regarding WW1 and WW2.


With that said, I think that the rates may have been similar, but since it was not really a treated thing, accurate records were not kept and thus we'll never know. I do think that the mode of transportation did aid, and prevent some from developing worse symptoms in previous wars, than we do today. By this I mean, in WW1 and 2, we shipped men from the warzones back to the US on ships, taking weeks, or up to a month to arrive back in the states. During this time, we know many would play cards, lounge around, smoke, swap stories, etc. Which, while I'm no mental health professional, I think it did wonders to help decompress combat vets in a safe environment. Compare that to today where, when I left Iraq, it was leaving the active warzone, 1-3 days in Kuwait, then it was back in the world with a 48 hour pass, a day or 2 of processing, then a 4-day. . . . Sure, you were happy to see family, those who had that, and sure you were happy to no longer be "in the gak" anymore, but were you really decompressed at all? Were you even beginning to think through, and process everything that had happened?

One thing to consider is not just the type of combat we are fighting now, but also the fact that we've been fighting the same damn war for 16 years. How many tours is a soldier doing now compared to a soldier in WW2? How much more total combat are our vets seeing now than in previous conflicts?

 redleger wrote:
to cement this a bit more, on this very page Kris Kyle was called some pretty disingenuous names and if I remember it was a mod who did it. That man started giving back to the community but all a civilian sees is a sniper who killed people. Who made hard calls and had to live with those hard calls. A

This is a good example,. because one of the complications to service related PTSD is how the US treats the military in general - there is an awful lot of jingoism and hero worship which often makes it impossible to have any sort of nuanced discussion. Chris Kyle was proven to be an inveterate liar, and in his own words, definitely showed some pretty disturbing thinking. He also performed some pretty incredible heroics and unambiguously saved American lives. The hand-waving away of the undesirable parts of his story also build up that flawless hero worship image that make it impossible for a hero to have suffered PTSD.

 d-usa wrote:
One thing to consider is not just the type of combat we are fighting now, but also the fact that we've been fighting the same damn war for 16 years. How many tours is a soldier doing now compared to a soldier in WW2? How much more total combat are our vets seeing now than in previous conflicts?

In WWII you were there for the duration. Some were gone four years. Now you rotate back every year, give or take a few months. The boat and travel time is the biggest factor, but still didn't lessen long term effect. My wifes grandfather screamed almost every night because of nightmares. He just dealt with it. The question is what did he have that many in current times do not. I think the answer to that question is multi-faceted and very complicated.


As for Kris Kyle not sure what lies he told, unless you are referring to his awards. That was corrected on his DD214 and I'm sure there is still more to that story. But Sebastian Junger broached this subject and I tend to agree. Society needs to quit telling vets they are damaged goods. Reintigration, and it is just that, is already hard enough without feeling like you were a tool that can now be discarded. Hero's are not a bad thing. They can inspire for generations like Audi Murphy. But many have felt the need to point out his flaws. He had a few. We are all just human and once you start with that baseline you can now quit holding them up the the rose colored lense.

 redleger wrote:
As for Kris Kyle not sure what lies he told, unless you are referring to his awards.

If memory serves, he bragged about killing a number of looters during Katrina, some carjackers in Texas, and for knocking out Jesse Ventura in a bar fight. All proven false.

I tend to give him a pass on all of that, as at that point in his life, he was trying to sell a product and went overboard trying to hype it up.

On Sebastian Junger, he also made a good point about the loss of brotherhood when transitioning out of service and how that affects people. I was in the Army for 4 years, 1999-2003, but when I got out, for a long time I wanted to go back in. I even sometimes regret not going back in. I had absolutely hated my job while in, but missed the camaraderie and shared sense of purpose that binds all service members. I can only imagine how that bond is magnified when in extreme situations day in, day out.

 nels1031 wrote:

On Sebastian Junger, he also made a good point about the loss of brotherhood when transitioning out of service and how that affects people. I was in the Army for 4 years, 1999-2003, but when I got out, for a long time I wanted to go back in. I even sometimes regret not going back in. I had absolutely hated my job while in, but missed the camaraderie and shared sense of purpose that binds all service members. I can only imagine how that bond is magnified when in extreme situations day in, day out.

A friend of mine medically retired last year. 14 year Infantry man. He moved out to San Francisco to go to college, and be with his son. I got to hang out with him for ATC this year, and this exact thing is the one thing that he had to say was the worst part about getting back into civilian life. It doesn't help that he now lives in one of the most delusional places in the world, but he hates how he once lived a life where he wouldn't question dying for the people around him, and knowing without a doubt they'd do the same, to moving to a place where it is the total opposite. Where selfishness is the only trait that seems to exist.

I interacted with two vets of the WoT/Iraq War pretty frequently in the past.

First I met through playing 40k via a mutual friend. His vehicle ran over an IED and he took shrapnel to the stomach that devastated his intestines. Dropped about 60 lbs (200 to 140 or even less) in short order. When I met him he was a stick. He was at Fort Sam at the time for treatment at BAMC before finally being medically discharged. From what I've heard he's doing much better physically. Never expressed anything about PTSD. I believe he was infantry. IIRC he wish he could've stayed in.

The second guy was in Afghanistan at a FOB. Field Artillery. His FOB was constantly under enemy mortar fire and other weapons. He was never injured, never even really saw the enemy clearly, but was suffering from severe anxiety and heightened stress. Definitely a serious case. Usually he was pretty nonchalant, but when things got under his skin he would get pissed, but never physically violent. Also expressed interest in getting back in.

There are two forms of PTSD and they can be intertwined. One is a specific events, or maybe even several events, that cause flashbacks. The other is complex PTSD and is the product of being in a high stress environment (war zone) for a sustained period of time. Both can lead to heightened stress levels and excessive vigilance after returning to a safe environment. They both occur in the civilian population as well. For the former it could be an assault, sexual or otherwise, and the latter could be something as simple as growing up in an abusive household where you have to be constantly on guard to avoid an attack on your person.

I think the war in Europe (WW2) would most likely have led to less cases than the Pacific War. The Nazis were terrible, of course, but not as prone to using booby traps or mutilation of the dead. Of course both conflicts would cause the general effects related to war.

The WoT is quite different. The initial invasions of both Iraq and Afghanistan went much more smoothly than any conflict in WW2, but veterans still witness horrific things. A greater issue is the post invasion ever prevalent unease of not knowing when the next attack is coming, where the next IED is, who is friend and who is foe, etc. I could see how the nature of the war could produce a higher percentage of PTSD reports. Almost as if the devil you know is less terrible than the one you don't.

To put it really simply the great difference to me is that in one scenario you have death on a massive scale but the lines are clear. The other one has significantly less death, smaller battles, etc, but it comes with that need of constant vigilance because there are no uniforms and no clear, visible, difference between the enemy and non combatants.

Both are terrible. Instead of treating veterans like pariah or untouchable heroes maybe we would do better to see them as men and women who have been through an ordeal most can not relate to. Maybe they were courageous and disciplined. Maybe they weren't. It's irrelevant to me. Those who have suffered need help more than jingoistic glorification.

 trexmeyer wrote:
I interacted with two vets of the WoT/Iraq War pretty frequently in the past.

First I met through playing 40k via a mutual friend. His vehicle ran over an IED and he took shrapnel to the stomach that devastated his intestines. Dropped about 60 lbs (200 to 140 or even less) in short order. When I met him he was a stick. He was at Fort Sam at the time for treatment at BAMC before finally being medically discharged. From what I've heard he's doing much better physically. Never expressed anything about PTSD. I believe he was infantry. IIRC he wish he could've stayed in.

The second guy was in Afghanistan at a FOB. Field Artillery. His FOB was constantly under enemy mortar fire and other weapons. He was never injured, never even really saw the enemy clearly, but was suffering from severe anxiety and heightened stress. Definitely a serious case. Usually he was pretty nonchalant, but when things got under his skin he would get pissed, but never physically violent. Also expressed interest in getting back in.

There are two forms of PTSD and they can be intertwined. One is a specific events, or maybe even several events, that cause flashbacks. The other is complex PTSD and is the product of being in a high stress environment (war zone) for a sustained period of time. Both can lead to heightened stress levels and excessive vigilance after returning to a safe environment. They both occur in the civilian population as well. For the former it could be an assault, sexual or otherwise, and the latter could be something as simple as growing up in an abusive household where you have to be constantly on guard to avoid an attack on your person.

I think the war in Europe (WW2) would most likely have led to less cases than the Pacific War. The Nazis were terrible, of course, but not as prone to using booby traps or mutilation of the dead. Of course both conflicts would cause the general effects related to war.

The WoT is quite different. The initial invasions of both Iraq and Afghanistan went much more smoothly than any conflict in WW2, but veterans still witness horrific things. A greater issue is the post invasion ever prevalent unease of not knowing when the next attack is coming, where the next IED is, who is friend and who is foe, etc. I could see how the nature of the war could produce a higher percentage of PTSD reports. Almost as if the devil you know is less terrible than the one you don't.

To put it really simply the great difference to me is that in one scenario you have death on a massive scale but the lines are clear. The other one has significantly less death, smaller battles, etc, but it comes with that need of constant vigilance because there are no uniforms and no clear, visible, difference between the enemy and non combatants.

Both are terrible. Instead of treating veterans like pariah or untouchable heroes maybe we would do better to see them as men and women who have been through an ordeal most can not relate to. Maybe they were courageous and disciplined. Maybe they weren't. It's irrelevant to me. Those who have suffered need help more than jingoistic glorification.

well said. Secondly stigma prevents many from seeking help, and then some that do never really truly receive it. Vets are killing themselves at VA centers because they suffer and they for whatever reason they are not receiving serious help. VA Suicide 1 VA suicide 2 VA Suicide 3 There are so many more examples. Veterans are a proud bunch. And when they decide to ask for help sometimes it can be to much to take when you are set aside or made to feel like a burden.

S.E.E.

Significant Emotional Event. That becomes imprinted on ones mind

 d-usa wrote:
One thing to consider is not just the type of combat we are fighting now, but also the fact that we've been fighting the same damn war for 16 years. How many tours is a soldier doing now compared to a soldier in WW2? How much more total combat are our vets seeing now than in previous conflicts?

Spoiler:

I'm leaving for my 4th tour* on Sunday. I will have at least 5 by the time I retire, wouldn't be surprised if it's 6.



*This is not a combat tour, thankfully. Still 6 long months away from my family, in a higher stress environment.

 djones520 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
One thing to consider is not just the type of combat we are fighting now, but also the fact that we've been fighting the same damn war for 16 years. How many tours is a soldier doing now compared to a soldier in WW2? How much more total combat are our vets seeing now than in previous conflicts?

Spoiler:

I'm leaving for my 4th tour* on Sunday. I will have at least 5 by the time I retire, wouldn't be surprised if it's 6.



*This is not a combat tour, thankfully. Still 6 long months away from my family, in a higher stress environment.

Stay safe brother. Let us know if you need any lickies or chewies.

I forgot to bring this one up:


One of my outlets to help me process through my... issues with coming back is the fact that my stepson also joined. I couldn't make it to his Turning Blue ceremony or graduation in November, so we had our own at home. Nice and informal. I gave him MY blue cord since my permanent profile prevents me from ever being able to be Infantry again. He has it on his ASU as we speak. He just recently got back from being BLUEFOR at JRTC, so me advising him a bit on what he is in for, and helping him acclimate has been cathartic to say the least.

 Just Tony wrote:
I forgot to bring this one up:


One of my outlets to help me process through my... issues with coming back is the fact that my stepson also joined. I couldn't make it to his Turning Blue ceremony or graduation in November, so we had our own at home. Nice and informal. I gave him MY blue cord since my permanent profile prevents me from ever being able to be Infantry again. He has it on his ASU as we speak. He just recently got back from being BLUEFOR at JRTC, so me advising him a bit on what he is in for, and helping him acclimate has been cathartic to say the least.

You know damn well you will always be Infantry. You just passed the Branch cord on to a family member. If he deploys you know damn well creature comfort is high on the list then sex and beer (eventually they will go in the lead).

True enough, you can take the Grunt out of the Infantry, but you can never take the Infantry out of the Grunt.

Just Tony wrote:I forgot to bring this one up:


One of my outlets to help me process through my... issues with coming back is the fact that my stepson also joined. I couldn't make it to his Turning Blue ceremony or graduation in November, so we had our own at home. Nice and informal. I gave him MY blue cord since my permanent profile prevents me from ever being able to be Infantry again. He has it on his ASU as we speak. He just recently got back from being BLUEFOR at JRTC, so me advising him a bit on what he is in for, and helping him acclimate has been cathartic to say the least.

Jihadin wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
I forgot to bring this one up:


One of my outlets to help me process through my... issues with coming back is the fact that my stepson also joined. I couldn't make it to his Turning Blue ceremony or graduation in November, so we had our own at home. Nice and informal. I gave him MY blue cord since my permanent profile prevents me from ever being able to be Infantry again. He has it on his ASU as we speak. He just recently got back from being BLUEFOR at JRTC, so me advising him a bit on what he is in for, and helping him acclimate has been cathartic to say the least.

You know damn well you will always be Infantry. You just passed the Branch cord on to a family member. If he deploys you know damn well creature comfort is high on the list then sex and beer (eventually they will go in the lead).

Passing that cord is important not only to you but to him. It allows him to carry the torch. I know its in good hands. I feel the same way about being an Artilleryman. Since I have pretty much ensured my 3 daughters will never join I instead continue to contract teaching AIT for the 13D school house. Being around it still is very helpful and helps split the difference between having the uniform on again and moving on to civilian life.

Dont forget that they have linked the Anti-Malaria pills they were force feeding us to Brain Damage that looks and acts remarkably like PTSD. Ohh and it is aggravated by TBIs which most of us have.

 djones520 wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:

On Sebastian Junger, he also made a good point about the loss of brotherhood when transitioning out of service and how that affects people. I was in the Army for 4 years, 1999-2003, but when I got out, for a long time I wanted to go back in. I even sometimes regret not going back in. I had absolutely hated my job while in, but missed the camaraderie and shared sense of purpose that binds all service members. I can only imagine how that bond is magnified when in extreme situations day in, day out.

A friend of mine medically retired last year. 14 year Infantry man. He moved out to San Francisco to go to college, and be with his son. I got to hang out with him for ATC this year, and this exact thing is the one thing that he had to say was the worst part about getting back into civilian life. It doesn't help that he now lives in one of the most delusional places in the world, but he hates how he once lived a life where he wouldn't question dying for the people around him, and knowing without a doubt they'd do the same, to moving to a place where it is the total opposite. Where selfishness is the only trait that seems to exist.

I've seen a similar thing with my brother - when he got out and worked a normal office job, he was pretty taken aback by the level of self serving behaviour and lying, because in the Marines, lying would get people killed so people tended to be pretty straightforward. Caused him a lot of stress for a while, with some physical effects (acne and the like). But he's pretty re-adjusted now, and very chilled out about life. I guess he has always been a pretty robust guy, and he's introspective which helped.

He was also a sniper, and I don't really think any less of him for it. He was in a combat zone and he had a particular skillset that was very useful. I don't think he had any particular animus for the people he was fighting and in a weird way I think that's better?

I still think the WoT was a big mistake, and the fact that it's still going 16 years later seems to bear that out.

I was in the Army for 7 years. Deployed overseas 3 times, each for a year or slightly more. I was basically on a year on, tear off rotation. My MOS was not in combat. I didn't see a lot of action, and most instances of enemy fire was from mortars. I was a flight mechanic. The work was very hard but, not dangerous most of the time. (Wall of Text incoming) The feelings that plague me are mostly;

1. From a professional standpoint I should have stayed in. It sucks going from being a technically proficient and well respected Sergeant to square one... but I did it because of my son so, for him it's worth it. God bless Soldiers that have to emotional strength to deal with enemies but, much harder to be without loved ones.

2. Even without the professional standing there is a sense of togetherness that cannot be duplicated in most civilian careers. My Facebook (rarely used as it is), has people I met in the Army or gre up with. In the nearly 7 years since I have been out, I have formed no real friendships.

3. The gakky way the VA treats us, it seems almost designed to degrade and deter veterans from real care. That's real BS given that we never needed to invade Iraq in the 1st place.

4. It was all a profit sharing scam for Halliburton amd KBR ...oh and Dick Cheney used to be one of theid CEOs.

5. Even without direct gunfire, it brings up the dreadful realization that our existence can be stolen from you at any time.

6. Dealing with those "uh-oh killer veteran" stereotypes. I like order and cleanliness and that made life in the military generally less than stressful. So because I like the high-fade must mean I never left or whatever. It pisses me off that not looking like an out of shape slob is somehow an indication that I will snap. If this is how Black people feel like they are being treated (which working around cops by the WTC, they really do treat them worse), no wonder they're pissed off.

This wall is just from a support Soldier, let alone from those who had to go out on patrols in areas where the civilians and the enemies look the same and, the IEDs and the copious amounts of garbage in middle eastern towns also all look the same.

SemperMortis wrote:
Dont forget that they have linked the Anti-Malaria pills they were force feeding us to Brain Damage that looks and acts remarkably like PTSD. Ohh and it is aggravated by TBIs which most of us have.

That reminds me of a story my dad told me about The Gulf War. His platoon was given the typical anti-whatever the feth pills and when asked by his platoon sergeant at the time as to whether or not he would take them he said, "feth no." Most of the platoon followed his lead. Today he has shown no signs of Gulf War syndrome. Which is remarkable considering I believe that rate of occurrence is as high as 3:4. I have no doubt some medications have caused undue problems and stress in addition to the rigors of combat.

I didn't want to make a new thread about this, so figured this was the best place for it.



A good friend of mine. Medically retired Soldier, multiple tours in Iraq, PTSD, the whole nine yards.

Goes to school in San Francisco, I mentioned him earlier in this thread.

This is the crap he lives with. He found that on his jeep today. He did nothing to prompt it, just got home from school, and found it written in permanent marker on his jeep.

He's taking it pretty hard, as I'd imagine many of us are, but even more so because he's certainly been going through a life crisis out there, when every day of his life, he's being treated as the enemy. He spent years of his life doing what he thought was right, with people actively trying to kill him, him having to kill them. Suffered life lasting injuries. All just trying to do what he thought was right. He's a nice guy, would never go out of his way to cause problems for anyone else. And yet, this is what he has to live with. This is what our society is doing to him, and who knows how many others.

It's just not right. Not right at all.

That's disgraceful, djones. It is not a topic I usually involve myself with, but that is not something you should do to someone whether they are ex-military or not. :(

My thoughts on it are that PTSD simply wasn't recognised back then. Therefore it was simply ignored or dealt with in other ways. Conventional war is probably even more traumatic than fighting insurgents is (due to the fact that much more people are getting killed) and behaviours for veterans that we now recognise as being symptoms of PTSD are attested in literature all the way back to Ancient Greece.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:
I didn't want to make a new thread about this, so figured this was the best place for it.

Spoiler:

A good friend of mine. Medically retired Soldier, multiple tours in Iraq, PTSD, the whole nine yards.

Goes to school in San Francisco, I mentioned him earlier in this thread.

This is the crap he lives with. He found that on his jeep today. He did nothing to prompt it, just got home from school, and found it written in permanent marker on his jeep.

He's taking it pretty hard, as I'd imagine many of us are, but even more so because he's certainly been going through a life crisis out there, when every day of his life, he's being treated as the enemy. He spent years of his life doing what he thought was right, with people actively trying to kill him, him having to kill them. Suffered life lasting injuries. All just trying to do what he thought was right. He's a nice guy, would never go out of his way to cause problems for anyone else. And yet, this is what he has to live with. This is what our society is doing to him, and who knows how many others.

It's just not right. Not right at all.

That is pretty damn horrible
I don't get why people would do that.

 Iron_Captain wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 djones520 wrote:
I didn't want to make a new thread about this, so figured this was the best place for it.

Spoiler:

A good friend of mine. Medically retired Soldier, multiple tours in Iraq, PTSD, the whole nine yards.

Goes to school in San Francisco, I mentioned him earlier in this thread.

This is the crap he lives with. He found that on his jeep today. He did nothing to prompt it, just got home from school, and found it written in permanent marker on his jeep.

He's taking it pretty hard, as I'd imagine many of us are, but even more so because he's certainly been going through a life crisis out there, when every day of his life, he's being treated as the enemy. He spent years of his life doing what he thought was right, with people actively trying to kill him, him having to kill them. Suffered life lasting injuries. All just trying to do what he thought was right. He's a nice guy, would never go out of his way to cause problems for anyone else. And yet, this is what he has to live with. This is what our society is doing to him, and who knows how many others.

It's just not right. Not right at all.

That is pretty damn horrible
I don't get why people would do that.

People do that kind of gak for all kinds of reasons, usually all of them stupid. And the person who did this to djones520's friend is doubly stupid because they couldn't even spell "express" correctly.
It is because of things like this that I would never put any kind of political/religious message stickers or signs on my car. That just makes you a target.

They couldn't spell express right or draw a swastika, which is literally 8 straight lines. That takes a special kind of stupid.

This is the reason many veterans feel attacked though. This is not an isolated occurrence. I posted a while back about being called a war criminal with no provocation. Remember this when you are defending the actions of misguided college kids and thugs in masks beating people up. Because when they are done, they will be looking for new targets.

 redleger wrote:
This is the reason many veterans feel attacked though. This is not an isolated occurrence. I posted a while back about being called a war criminal with no provocation. Remember this when you are defending the actions of misguided college kids and thugs in masks beating people up. Because when they are done, they will be looking for new targets.

So, don't make blanket assumptions about the Military but make blanket assumptions about misguided college kids?

Gotcha

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 redleger wrote:
This is the reason many veterans feel attacked though. This is not an isolated occurrence. I posted a while back about being called a war criminal with no provocation. Remember this when you are defending the actions of misguided college kids and thugs in masks beating people up. Because when they are done, they will be looking for new targets.

So, don't make blanket assumptions about the Military but make blanket assumptions about misguided college kids?

Gotcha

Its not a blanket assumption because I didn't say all, since that would be a silly statement. I did refer to misguided in reference to those ones who are happy to write Nazi statements on someone's Jeep just because they did a stint in the Armed Forces. However please tell me more about how I accused "all" college students of this behavior.

 redleger wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 redleger wrote:
This is the reason many veterans feel attacked though. This is not an isolated occurrence. I posted a while back about being called a war criminal with no provocation. Remember this when you are defending the actions of misguided college kids and thugs in masks beating people up. Because when they are done, they will be looking for new targets.

So, don't make blanket assumptions about the Military but make blanket assumptions about misguided college kids?

Gotcha

Its not a blanket assumption because I didn't say all, since that would be a silly statement. I did refer to misguided in reference to those ones who are happy to write Nazi statements on someone's Jeep just because they did a stint in the Armed Forces. However please tell me more about how I accused "all" college students of this behavior.

I am going to stop this before you try to make this something it is not. At no point did I say "all" or did you say "all". However a blanket statement was made about "misguided college kids" and "thugs in masks" covering them. Who are the misguided college kids? What are they misguided about? What do you consider misguided here? What thugs in masks? Are you talking about Antifa or are you talking about the Klan? Are you making a racial statement, as the word "thug" has been strongly associated with BLM?

If you have an issue with a particular group, mention them. But by saying "misguided college kids" and "thugs in masks", you are making a blanket statement and I honestly have no fething clue what group you are talking about.

redleger wrote:This is the reason many veterans feel attacked though. This is not an isolated occurrence. I posted a while back about being called a war criminal with no provocation. Remember this when you are defending the actions of misguided college kids and thugs in masks beating people up. Because when they are done, they will be looking for new targets.

When I was in a Taco Bell on Purdue University's campus periphery, I was spit on and called a babykiller while in uniform. These things happen more often than you realize.