Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Seriously? Over a year to finish a book that had been in progress for quite a while already? That's inexcusable incompetence. What is going on, one guy writing the book on his lunch break once a week? I could write the whole book myself in half that time.

Yeah, Angelus was announced/confirmed in Febuary, which means they have been working on it for awhile. All the legions in it have base rules that require tweaking/ adding in units/primarchs. This book should already be being proofreading stage/playtesting.
The supposed reason is the death of Alan Bligh. Which while tragic, I feel FW is bringing up alot for excuses as they slowly slid downhill because i think HH ended up as to much of a project for them.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
You just wanted to continue your rant which basically amounts to "got mine, don't care". And that attitude gets us nowhere. It does not build communities, but divides them. Enjoy the game you actually get to play, not all of us are as blessed as you, so telling us to basically feth off, as you have done, is hurtful, antagonistic, and downright offensive, but is exactly what I will do at this point in the discussion.

And im sure your heart would be bleeding for us if itd have gone the other way and we'd been forced to 8th...

There are options to play with (most of) your models in 8th ed 40k. The reverse option would have been denied the last three legions had we moved to 8th at the same time as 40k.

30k isn't 40k. It shared a core rules set, but it was a different community and had different expectations. As rightly pointed out above, there was a foreword advising the rules allowed play between Age Of Darkness armies and 40k Armies, but that was never the intent.

Sure, it sucks that you might be getting less games now. But my sympathy for that ends right about the point the whinging starts. Enjoy the game you actually get to play. I do. 30k is awesome.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
You're still swinging, and you're still missing.
I said "differences in the change" not "difference in the changes". The point was, in fact, there, as subtle as it may be. You just wanted to continue your rant which basically amounts to "got mine, don't care". And that attitude gets us nowhere. It does not build communities, but divides them. Enjoy the game you actually get to play, not all of us are as blessed as you, so telling us to basically feth off, as you have done, is hurtful, antagonistic, and downright offensive, but is exactly what I will do at this point in the discussion.

I didn't honestly believe that someone would expect me to write a list of all the differences between 6th and 7th, the differences between 7th and 8th, and then to do a side-by-side comparison between those sets of differences in order to have my opinion of the variance between the 8 editions considered in a discussion on the merits/deficiencies of various editions.

I still don't, i think you just want the HH to move to 8th edition and are sticking up for those that turned a thread on the ridiculous delay to book 8: angelus, into a circle-jerk about the 'lack' of edition switch in the HH.

Lets hope the upcoming rules writer hirings will give the HH the love it deserves and no more delays!
I think that fires of cyraxus will come out first though - imo it might have caused the delay in book 8

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, Angelus was announced/confirmed in Febuary, which means they have been working on it for awhile. All the legions in it have base rules that require tweaking/ adding in units/primarchs. This book should already be being proofreading stage/playtesting.
The supposed reason is the death of Alan Bligh. Which while tragic, I feel FW is bringing up alot for excuses as they slowly slid downhill because i think HH ended up as to much of a project for them.

Keep in mind, Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus, Fires of Cyraxus, and the 8th edition debacle.

Just how big is Forge Worlds creative staff?

Granted, I'm not happy about this, but it sounds to me more like GW isn't giving these guys the staff that they need.

 djones520 wrote:

Just how big is Forge Worlds creative staff?
Granted, I'm not happy about this, but it sounds to me more like GW isn't giving these guys the staff that they need.

We don't know for sure. While they're advertising for more staff (https://jobs.games-workshop.com/2017/04/21/forge-world-digital-model-designer-nottingham-uk/ for example), some existing ones have been moved to other areas. The Open Day flyer does give a peek - https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/FW-Specialist-Games-Open-Day-Programme.pdf

Interesting, so who in that is the writer? All I saw on the design team was artists, painters, and model designers.

The Black Books are only like 5% rules. They're bigger then most novels, fluff wise.

So, do they even have writing talent right now?

Book 4 (the only one I can get my hands on now) says "Writing and Games Design by: Alan Bligh with Andy Hoare & Neil Wylie".

 djones520 wrote:
They're bigger then most novels, fluff wise.

Sure, but that fluff isn't all that impressive. An amateur author can write a mediocre scifi story in a month, a team of professionals taking two years (or more!) to put out a new 30k book is inexcusable incompetence.

beast_gts wrote:
Book 4 (the only one I can get my hands on now) says "Writing and Games Design by: Alan Bligh with Andy Hoare & Neil Wylie".

Yeah, looking at some books on hand, I'm seeing a lot of names that aren't in that photo.

 djones520 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
Book 4 (the only one I can get my hands on now) says "Writing and Games Design by: Alan Bligh with Andy Hoare & Neil Wylie".

Yeah, looking at some books on hand, I'm seeing a lot of names that aren't in that photo.

Alan Bligh has sadly passed away, Andy Hoare has moved to Specialist Games and Neil Wylie is now 'lead writer on the Horus Heresy rulebook' (well, he was in June - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/26/a-new-rulebook-for-the-horus-heresy/).

Again, I don't think it can be emphasized enough that 30K was Alan Bligh's baby. From the way people have talked about him, it's not like replacing one role, it's like replacing your creative head, project manager, and lead writer at once.

 djones520 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, Angelus was announced/confirmed in Febuary, which means they have been working on it for awhile. All the legions in it have base rules that require tweaking/ adding in units/primarchs. This book should already be being proofreading stage/playtesting.
The supposed reason is the death of Alan Bligh. Which while tragic, I feel FW is bringing up alot for excuses as they slowly slid downhill because i think HH ended up as to much of a project for them.

Keep in mind, Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus, Fires of Cyraxus, and the 8th edition debacle.

Just how big is Forge Worlds creative staff?

Granted, I'm not happy about this, but it sounds to me more like GW isn't giving these guys the staff that they need.

Then honestly, Maybe they shouldn't be taking on that many projects
Anyone else also noticed that they said that blackbooks won't be release without accompanying model?
That could be a reason too, a dumb one, but a reason

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, Angelus was announced/confirmed in Febuary, which means they have been working on it for awhile. All the legions in it have base rules that require tweaking/ adding in units/primarchs. This book should already be being proofreading stage/playtesting.
The supposed reason is the death of Alan Bligh. Which while tragic, I feel FW is bringing up alot for excuses as they slowly slid downhill because i think HH ended up as to much of a project for them.

Alan Bligh was THE creative force behind HH. It was his baby, his brain child. The man lived for the Horus Heresy and he was the main consultant. Also remember his death was not just the death of a coworker but the death of a close friend for a lot of those people.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Then honestly, Maybe they shouldn't be taking on that many projects
Anyone else also noticed that they said that blackbooks won't be release without accompanying model?
That could be a reason too, a dumb one, but a reason

I dunno that I'd call it a dumb one since the miniatures are where they really make their money. But you are correct that miniature design and production is a potential bottleneck for them.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Anyone else also noticed that they said that blackbooks won't be release without accompanying model?
That could be a reason too, a dumb one, but a reason

I don't think that's dumb, it will prevent us from getting more situations where a book has major characters, Dorn/Alpharius, who don't yet have models. Mean while characters from books after theirs, Guilliman, Magnus, Russ, The Knight Errants, Amon, all have models before them.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, Angelus was announced/confirmed in Febuary, which means they have been working on it for awhile. All the legions in it have base rules that require tweaking/ adding in units/primarchs. This book should already be being proofreading stage/playtesting.
The supposed reason is the death of Alan Bligh. Which while tragic, I feel FW is bringing up alot for excuses as they slowly slid downhill because i think HH ended up as to much of a project for them.

Alan Bligh was THE creative force behind HH. It was his baby, his brain child. The man lived for the Horus Heresy and he was the main consultant. Also remember his death was not just the death of a coworker but the death of a close friend for a lot of those people.

Yes, but as can be seen, other people worked on it too with him. Those people cant crank out a book in nearly a year?
Its kinda sad honestly. This whole thing has pushed back tons of other stuff. Fires is Dead, The indexes are jokes(Why doesnt my Mortis dread have +1 to hit flyers?) and the legion I want to play wont be here for nearly another year(Blood Angels)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Anyone else also noticed that they said that blackbooks won't be release without accompanying model?
That could be a reason too, a dumb one, but a reason

I don't think that's dumb, it will prevent us from getting more situations where a book has major characters, Dorn/Alpharius, who don't yet have models. Mean while characters from books after theirs, Guilliman, Magnus, Russ, The Knight Errants, Amon, all have models before them.

Yes, but that means if a majority of the models are not done or ready in time....book gets delayed

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Anyone else also noticed that they said that blackbooks won't be release without accompanying model?
That could be a reason too, a dumb one, but a reason

I don't think that's dumb, it will prevent us from getting more situations where a book has major characters, Dorn/Alpharius, who don't yet have models. Mean while characters from books after theirs, Guilliman, Magnus, Russ, The Knight Errants, Amon, all have models before them.

Yes, but that means if a majority of the models are not done or ready in time....book gets delayed

Just need to be patient then.

When they used to do 2 books in the span of a year, there is no need to "Be Patient" Because the time span of nearly 2 and a half years for a book is dumb it should be out christmas 2017

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
When they used to do 2 books in the span of a year, there is no need to "Be Patient" Because the time span of nearly 2 and a half years for a book is dumb it should be out christmas 2017

To be fair, they only had two in a calendar year once, although they did manage a couple six-month gaps.

1: October 2012
2: October 2013
3: May 2014
4: November 2014
5: May 2015
6: February 2016
7: March 2017

That's an average of what, eight or nine months in between?

The thing to consider here is that they previously talked about 15 to 20 black books. And if we're looking at approximately a two-year gap between 7 and 8...it really does beg the question as to whether Alan Bligh's vision will ever be realized. Business plans tend not to survive 10+-year time frames intact.

And thats what worries me? Will I get my primarch? Will I get my white Scars rules?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, Angelus was announced/confirmed in Febuary, which means they have been working on it for awhile. All the legions in it have base rules that require tweaking/ adding in units/primarchs. This book should already be being proofreading stage/playtesting.
The supposed reason is the death of Alan Bligh. Which while tragic, I feel FW is bringing up alot for excuses as they slowly slid downhill because i think HH ended up as to much of a project for them.

Well. They could outsource the whole 40k/AOS-rules-stuff to GW at this point. And just concetrate on 30k for the time being. My oppinion.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Anyone else also noticed that they said that blackbooks won't be release without accompanying model?
That could be a reason too, a dumb one, but a reason

I don't think that's dumb, it will prevent us from getting more situations where a book has major characters, Dorn/Alpharius, who don't yet have models. Mean while characters from books after theirs, Guilliman, Magnus, Russ, The Knight Errants, Amon, all have models before them.

Yes, but that means if a majority of the models are not done or ready in time....book gets delayed

Just need to be patient then.

How very dare you! Patience? For books and models people are ENTITLED to own as soon as possible?! HERESY.



Im fine with waiting. It sucks a little, but id rather get the completed article and have it tested properly. FW evidently need time to regroup and formulate strategy. And ultimately, they need to look at the projects on the table as they stand and focus on whichever one will give them biggest return on investment in the swiftest time. The paralysis of the last few months will effect trading. Theyre a business first after all. It means I may not get anything for any of the legions I play for over a year, but im ok with that if it means FW is more stable in the long term.

 Peregrine wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
They're bigger then most novels, fluff wise.

Sure, but that fluff isn't all that impressive. An amateur author can write a mediocre scifi story in a month, a team of professionals taking two years (or more!) to put out a new 30k book is inexcusable incompetence.

This is just ridiculous. The FW books put out a whole new level of rich and deep content. The storylines, the artwork and the overall quality are world famous for a reason.

Their senior writer, Alan Bligh, a man who did write during his lunch breaks, wrote at unearthly hours of the night and lived and breathed 30/40k and created vast swathes of it, had terminal cancer, only noone knew it was going to be terminal until the very last couple of weeks of his life. The Horus Heresy was his baby more so than anyone elses at GW/FW and everyone, author, rules writer, senior bloody manager, deferred to him on it. The instructions were to hold on, to wait for him and not go ahead on his masterwork while he was alive as if he were not.

In the meanwhile the HH team had also lost another of it's major influences in Andy Hoare taking on the (far more successful than they were expecting) Specialist Games dept.

So, they are hiring on new talent, elevating what they have, but the driving force behind this died of cancer. And your dismissive comments about the quality of his work and the work of others is a fething disgrace.

Show some bloody respect.

You are talking like our criticisms of Fw and their inability to get a book done in TWO YEARS is like us insulting Alan bligh or belittling was happened to him
Its us criticizing the fact that, with multiple teams of writers, FW cant get a single book done, Fires is gone, Angelus is delayed, which means other books beyond that are delayed.
Its a joke the FW is acting the way it is

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
You are talking like our criticisms of Fw and their inability to get a book done in TWO YEARS is like us insulting Alan bligh or belittling was happened to him
Its us criticizing the fact that, with multiple teams of writers, FW cant get a single book done, Fires is gone, Angelus is delayed, which means other books beyond that are delayed.
Its a joke the FW is acting the way it is

What multiple teams of writers are you referring to?

Neil Wylie was tasked with Age of Darkness rulebook (editing 7th for HH).

Fire of Cyraxus isn't gone, it is progressing very slowly but we know from FW open days that it's at the very least 1st draft done, I doubt very much they'd just never release it having gone to that effort already. 8th ed came along so it was delayed so it could be updated, then the story needed to be updated to fit the new 40k setting better. Alan then passed away and Neil and Emma had to carry the job of converting all the Imperial Armour stuff to 40k in time for its launch a few months ago. The team is being rebuilt and everyone's pitching in, but they have a huge amount to do and lead times are long enough as it is in the publishing industry.

So other than them, who were you referring to in these 'teams' of writers? You know this isn't an assembly line, it's not even GW prime, so, when their principal writer dies, and the other two of the 'holy trinity' of HH are a) dealing with making existing rules work for a new edition of 40k and b) setting up a brand new division with new games... You really didn't expect to see delay?

Delay is expected, but not TWO YEARS worth of delay. Let that sink in.
When before they had 6-9 month gap between books. Its going to be 2 years gab between the next, Two years it ridiculous.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Delay is expected, but not TWO YEARS worth of delay. Let that sink in.
When before they had 6-9 month gap between books. Its going to be 2 years gab between the next, Two years it ridiculous.

Given the reasons I stated above, why is it?

Also, again, who are these 'teams of writers' you mentioned?

I'm going to take a middle ground here and say that a long delay with 30K is understandable to me given FW's situation. At the same time, that kind of delay can't possibly be spun into being a positive development for players or the health of the game.

To me from outside, FW has the look of a group going through some growing pains in a transition from being a very small shop to one with larger ambitions. They were a little boutique within GW, making boutique products for a select group of customers. But 30K got big, and now they're being tasked with other larger-profile projects and meeting the demands of a larger and larger customer base. As a result, we're seeing delays all over the place.

I know they've posted some jobs and are trying to ramp up, but all the delays fairly blatently say that they've got more on their plate than they can handle under their present size and structure. Hopefully they get it all sorted out, as I'm a fan of their products.

 gorgon wrote:
I'm going to take a middle ground here and say that a long delay with 30K is understandable to me given FW's situation. At the same time, that kind of delay can't possibly be spun into being a positive development for players or the health of the game.

To me from outside, FW has the look of a group going through some growing pains in a transition from being a very small shop to one with larger ambitions. They were a little boutique within GW, making boutique products for a select group of customers. But 30K got big, and now they're being tasked with other larger-profile projects and meeting the demands of a larger and larger customer base. As a result, we're seeing delays all over the place.

I know they've posted some jobs and are trying to ramp up, but all the delays fairly blatently say that they've got more on their plate than they can handle under their present size and structure. Hopefully they get it all sorted out, as I'm a fan of their products.

Would be, I'd suspect, a fairer deal that what I've been reading from Peregrine and Hotsauce. It's why this 'teams of writers' thing is so ridiculous, there isn't some vast warehouse of talent sat around scratching their nuts, they are a very small operation, comparatively, to the parent company and yet people seem to expect it's all the same thing 'behind the scenes'.

Demand for HH has grown exponentially yet staffing hasn't grown with it (and for the reasons I've already stated, has dramatically shrunken in very key positions) and this edition of 40k is massively different to it's predecessors and we're not grasping, outside of FW, what that means to getting a situation so that players who do already own kits can field them in their 40k games (because despite how much 30k has grown, 40k still dwarfs it by a staggering amount).

I want my Dark Mechanicum lists and new units more than I can express in a typed message and I'm eager to know how it will alter my growing mechanicum force, but right now I'm ok with holding off and have a gak ton of other things to build, paint and field for 30k, in addition to going back to my 40k armies to do some much needed updating.