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Martel732 wrote:
It's also over 400 pts

Its also taking up basically what is a compulsory slot. and is also eating up a heavy support slot leaving it open for more heavy stuff if thats what you are into.

It's actually 340. That's what i get for posting drunk. It's way too much for what it does

Martel732 wrote:
It's actually 340. That's what i get for posting drunk.

Well it is tgiFriday

 Desubot wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

Getting a Lascannon doesn't really make them specialist firepower.

Sure it does. Pop them in cover on a backline objective and they're obsec that can ding a tank. Or give them a plasmagun and combiplasma and now they have more short-ranged firepower vs MEQ even without overcharging. And with overcharging they threaten two-wound models.

camp on an objective in cover, with a lascannon or missile threatening more than half the board. 4 of those and you have a very spread out devastator squad that also is harder to straight kill as the guns are separated. and they take up a troop slot which opens up a higher number of command points.

A single heavy weapon is NOT threatening half the board anymore than it did in 7th. You would need them in bulk, which isn't something you're being provided in this instance.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

Getting a Lascannon doesn't really make them specialist firepower.

Sure it does. Pop them in cover on a backline objective and they're obsec that can ding a tank. Or give them a plasmagun and combiplasma and now they have more short-ranged firepower vs MEQ even without overcharging. And with overcharging they threaten two-wound models.

camp on an objective in cover, with a lascannon or missile threatening more than half the board. 4 of those and you have a very spread out devastator squad that also is harder to straight kill as the guns are separated. and they take up a troop slot which opens up a higher number of command points.

A single heavy weapon is NOT threatening half the board anymore than it did in 7th. You would need them in bulk, which isn't something you're being provided in this instance.

4 tactical squads (heck why not 5 + some other troop to get into brigade) is too much? you are ending up merging the cost of the guns from a dev squad into 4-5 tactical squad. this also opens up a whole heavy slot for more heavy weapon saturation if you need it.
or and while ANY slot can apparently take them it opens up razor backs too if you really want to go ham fisted.

how much bulk do you need?

(bit of pedantry here, that's not merging but splitting)

 Melissia wrote:
(bit of pedantry here, that's not merging but splitting)

shhh

Tacticals, always and forever. There to zig when the enemy wants you to zag.

Ran just salamander tac squads with lascannon and Dev squads (3 marines and 1 Las cannon) tonight and won my game with surprising ease the list is solid almost regretting I'm tourneying with guard now

U02dah4 wrote:
Ran just salamander tac squads with lascannon and Dev squads (3 marines and 1 Las cannon) tonight and won my game with surprising ease the list is solid almost regretting I'm tourneying with guard now

Salamander CT is incredibly powerful on small squads with 1/2 special weapons, if you want to field alot of tac i definitely recommand it.

 Stus67 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
I think this thread really separates the people that actually know how to play the game and people who only know how to crunch numbers.

Out of interest, which group is which? Do you think the people who know how to play like tactical marines, or find them a liability?

I think the people that find them a liability are the ones who focus too much on numbers and not actually playing. I play close to 4 times a week if not more and the local meta has a decent chunk of marine players and almost all of them get some good mileage out of their tac marines, sometimes pulling miracles with them. Not saying they don't have their problems, but when you're actually at the table crunching numbers doesn't help you much if you're just getting outplayed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not that it maters because everybody just losses to the Sisters players anyway.

Do they run them in 5's or 10's? Combat squads? Foot slogging or in transports? Which transports?

Thanks in advance, I only get to play once a week so it takes a whole week for me to try each new tactic beyond just theory information or rolling dice at home.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

Getting a Lascannon doesn't really make them specialist firepower.

Sure it does. Pop them in cover on a backline objective and they're obsec that can ding a tank. Or give them a plasmagun and combiplasma and now they have more short-ranged firepower vs MEQ even without overcharging. And with overcharging they threaten two-wound models.

camp on an objective in cover, with a lascannon or missile threatening more than half the board. 4 of those and you have a very spread out devastator squad that also is harder to straight kill as the guns are separated. and they take up a troop slot which opens up a higher number of command points.

A single heavy weapon is NOT threatening half the board anymore than it did in 7th. You would need them in bulk, which isn't something you're being provided in this instance.

4 tactical squads (heck why not 5 + some other troop to get into brigade) is too much? you are ending up merging the cost of the guns from a dev squad into 4-5 tactical squad. this also opens up a whole heavy slot for more heavy weapon saturation if you need it.
or and while ANY slot can apparently take them it opens up razor backs too if you really want to go ham fisted.

how much bulk do you need?

I want at least two minimum Heavy Weapons per squad if I'm rolling with Heavy Weapons. Even the best tactic for your idea involving Salamanders does better with two Lascannons in the squad, because a single Lascannon shot does nothing. One will hit, one might not on average.

OS doesn't make up for it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

Getting a Lascannon doesn't really make them specialist firepower.

Sure it does. Pop them in cover on a backline objective and they're obsec that can ding a tank. Or give them a plasmagun and combiplasma and now they have more short-ranged firepower vs MEQ even without overcharging. And with overcharging they threaten two-wound models.

camp on an objective in cover, with a lascannon or missile threatening more than half the board. 4 of those and you have a very spread out devastator squad that also is harder to straight kill as the guns are separated. and they take up a troop slot which opens up a higher number of command points.

A single heavy weapon is NOT threatening half the board anymore than it did in 7th. You would need them in bulk, which isn't something you're being provided in this instance.

4 tactical squads (heck why not 5 + some other troop to get into brigade) is too much? you are ending up merging the cost of the guns from a dev squad into 4-5 tactical squad. this also opens up a whole heavy slot for more heavy weapon saturation if you need it.
or and while ANY slot can apparently take them it opens up razor backs too if you really want to go ham fisted.

how much bulk do you need?

I want at least two minimum Heavy Weapons per squad if I'm rolling with Heavy Weapons. Even the best tactic for your idea involving Salamanders does better with two Lascannons in the squad, because a single Lascannon shot does nothing. One will hit, one might not on average.

OS doesn't make up for it.

But its not a single lascannon.

the number of lascannons never change

you take a list with 4 tactical squads with lascannons each or 1 dev squad with 4 las cannons. it doesnt change..... now with split fire there shooting 4 single shot for 4 different units isnt any different from 4 single shots from one unit. the only time it could be is with movement or character buffs.

which is mitigated by the sally chapter tactics

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

Getting a Lascannon doesn't really make them specialist firepower.

Sure it does. Pop them in cover on a backline objective and they're obsec that can ding a tank. Or give them a plasmagun and combiplasma and now they have more short-ranged firepower vs MEQ even without overcharging. And with overcharging they threaten two-wound models.

camp on an objective in cover, with a lascannon or missile threatening more than half the board. 4 of those and you have a very spread out devastator squad that also is harder to straight kill as the guns are separated. and they take up a troop slot which opens up a higher number of command points.

A single heavy weapon is NOT threatening half the board anymore than it did in 7th. You would need them in bulk, which isn't something you're being provided in this instance.

4 tactical squads (heck why not 5 + some other troop to get into brigade) is too much? you are ending up merging the cost of the guns from a dev squad into 4-5 tactical squad. this also opens up a whole heavy slot for more heavy weapon saturation if you need it.
or and while ANY slot can apparently take them it opens up razor backs too if you really want to go ham fisted.

how much bulk do you need?

I want at least two minimum Heavy Weapons per squad if I'm rolling with Heavy Weapons. Even the best tactic for your idea involving Salamanders does better with two Lascannons in the squad, because a single Lascannon shot does nothing. One will hit, one might not on average.

OS doesn't make up for it.

But its not a single lascannon.

the number of lascannons never change

you take a list with 4 tactical squads with lascannons each or 1 dev squad with 4 las cannons. it doesnt change..... now with split fire there shooting 4 single shot for 4 different units isnt any different from 4 single shots from one unit. the only time it could be is with movement or character buffs.

which is mitigated by the sally chapter tactics

The number of Lascannons is more important than the number of Marines. I already have two separate objective grabbers in my troops that do it better. If I'm holding a home objective, and I WANT a Lascannon for whatever reason, Devastators make a better choice thanks to the Cherub and Signum (which I assume is still available). So I can either take your four squads of Tactical Marines with 4 Lascannons, or 3 Devastator squads with 6-8 Lascannons, Signums and Cherubs. Choice is pretty damn clear. If you refuse to see it, that's purposeful blindness on your end.

Obviously, you take Tacs AND Devastators. Thats what I do.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Obviously, you take Tacs AND Devastators. Thats what I do.

But why bother?

Because its more Lascannons and more Marines, and its a troops choice.

I'm not that big on scouts.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Because its more Lascannons and more Marines, and its a troops choice.

I'm not that big on scouts.

I already provided how tactical marines aren't doing anything useful, and your response is to take both units, and your reasoning is this. Even though I showed it WAS less Lascannons, and you're just not that big on Scouts.

Can you contribute something better than that?

Lascannons, obsec, command points via formation, access to other special weapon options and a flexible, resilient battle line.

The deal with Tacs is that theyre best used, imo, in largish numbers and in a flexible disposition in terms of army strategy. Use whatever heavy hitters you bring to shape what the enemy can do, and then use tacticals to take advantage of that.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Lascannons, obsec, command points via formation, access to other special weapon options and a flexible, resilient battle line.

The deal with Tacs is that theyre best used, imo, in largish numbers and in a flexible disposition in terms of army strategy. Use whatever heavy hitters you bring to shape what the enemy can do, and then use tacticals to take advantage of that.

1. Too few Lascannons to actually damage anything and are definitely the worst source to use them effectively.
2. You have better choices for OS via Intercessors and Scouts. OS doesn't matter with Devastators since you kill things better with them. Refer to earlier in the thread when I pointed that out but you ignored it.
3. Scouts are getting you the Command Points cheaper. If you desperately need Command Points, spam Scions and a cheap HQ.
4. Command squads are still a thing. Also Bikes got a good point discount but I don't have a good idea if they'll be popular yet.

Tactical Marines are the worst kind of unit. You claim they do all these things but they actually don't. This supposed niche is one being purposely made up to make them look good because nobody wants or needs that niche. They aren't used competitively for a reason outside when Gladius existed. Even then that was for the free OS Rhinos and Razorbacks (nobody used a lone Demi Company did they?). Scouts (and I suspect soon Intercessors once the whole big Marines thing is over with) will ALWAYS be the better choice.

I dont think youd listen to any argument Id put forth, so I wont bother. But Imo, youre not seeing them in the right perspective. Tacs take part of a larger picture, but the larger picture has to fit them. If youre limiting youself to just comparing units to units without the bigger picture, youre going to pass them over.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I dont think youd listen to any argument Id put forth, so I wont bother. But Imo, youre not seeing them in the right perspective. Tacs take part of a larger picture, but the larger picture has to fit them. If youre limiting youself to just comparing units to units without the bigger picture, youre going to pass them over.

I GAVE the bigger picture. They've got literally nothing over Devastators besides OS, and it isn't hard to shift 5 Marines. So that's why you get more Lascannons on a better platform, thanks to the Signum and the 5 point cherub (which acts as an extra wound now, which is nice) There's one bigger picture for you.

If you want to actively capture objectives, Scouts don't need a transport, ergo making them cheaper, and only get one less special weapon (got in the form of a Combi) as the trade off. Then you get the option of CCW for better melee ability, Shotguns to advance quickly, or stock Bolters (which you shouldn't bother doing, because Bolters exist elsewhere). The unit can also camp and use Sniper Rifles + ML or Heavy Bolter, which is comparable to your idea of how to use the Tactical Marine. You lose the 3+ in exchange for better weapons and more deployment options. There's another bigger picture for you: Scouts have more tactical uses than Tactical Marines themselves.

If you just want sole objective camping, you can use the Devastators I already made mention of, or go straight to Intercessors. What they do instead of dealing straight damage is camp super hard. You NEED charged Plasma Guns to get rid of them, and the simple extra 6" bonus on their default weapons goes a long way to ensure they can move a little as needed.

Instead, what you get with Tactical Marines is a unit you want to do each of these things, but it does them so poorly you shouldn't buy into them at all. Specialization is key.

Tacticals unlock the battallion detachment for +3CP, without them you can field 1 CP with any other detachment. Lascannons really want some CP since those D6 can be a roll of 1 or 2. I usually spend my CP with drukhari rerolling dark lances D6 damage rolls.

Scouts are also troops but they need a different strategy, they still unlock dedicated transports but no one is going to embark them. With 3-4 tac squads in transports the SM lists gain mobility and become more tough with 30+ wounds with T7 and 3+ save.

Killing scouts is easier than killing rhinos/razorbacks. I've never had problems with lists based around scouts.

Devastators and other toys are more expensive than tac squads, in a regular game (with 5-7 turns, I'm not referring to those stupid tournaments that end turn 3) cheap bodies should be helpful.

 Blackie wrote:
Tacticals unlock the battallion detachment for +3CP, without them you can field 1 CP with any other detachment. Lascannons really want some CP since those D6 can be a roll of 1 or 2. I usually spend my CP with drukhari rerolling dark lances D6 damage rolls.

Devastator squads do get +1 to hit for one model in the unit each shooting phase, that's better than getting one reroll once if that's all you are going to do with your CP.

 Blackie wrote:
Scouts are also troops but they need a different strategy, they still unlock dedicated transports but no one is going to embark them. With 3-4 tac squads in transports the SM lists gain mobility and become more tough with 30+ wounds with T7 and 3+ save.

Killing scouts is easier than killing rhinos/razorbacks. I've never had problems with lists based around scouts.

I'd rather put vanguard veterans in rhinos if anything. If the choice is between a tac squad in a rhino or a scout squad and a razorback I'd choose the latter.

 Blackie wrote:
Devastators and other toys are more expensive than tac squads, in a regular game (with 5-7 turns, I'm not referring to those stupid tournaments that end turn 3) cheap bodies should be helpful.

Devastators and tac marines are equally expensive. If the plan is to bring a squad with at least one lascannon the choice is this: You either get signum, the option of a cherub and the option of three more heavy weapons or you get obsec, a partial extra CP, one optional special weapon if you run a 10 man squad and the option to replace the sergeant's bolt pistol (both sergeants may replace their boltgun). Unless you intend to do something special with your CP I think devastators get a slightly better end of the stick. Having that lascannon fire twice on turn 1 with 2+ to hit is pretty good.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Intercessors are tougher, but they still cost more per model and for the same price, tacticals can have more specialist firepower than they have. It's a good example of a legitimate trade-off in the game right now rather than an outright upgrade.

Getting a Lascannon doesn't really make them specialist firepower.

Sure it does. Pop them in cover on a backline objective and they're obsec that can ding a tank. Or give them a plasmagun and combiplasma and now they have more short-ranged firepower vs MEQ even without overcharging. And with overcharging they threaten two-wound models.

camp on an objective in cover, with a lascannon or missile threatening more than half the board. 4 of those and you have a very spread out devastator squad that also is harder to straight kill as the guns are separated. and they take up a troop slot which opens up a higher number of command points.

A single heavy weapon is NOT threatening half the board anymore than it did in 7th. You would need them in bulk, which isn't something you're being provided in this instance.

4 tactical squads (heck why not 5 + some other troop to get into brigade) is too much? you are ending up merging the cost of the guns from a dev squad into 4-5 tactical squad. this also opens up a whole heavy slot for more heavy weapon saturation if you need it.
or and while ANY slot can apparently take them it opens up razor backs too if you really want to go ham fisted.

how much bulk do you need?

I want at least two minimum Heavy Weapons per squad if I'm rolling with Heavy Weapons. Even the best tactic for your idea involving Salamanders does better with two Lascannons in the squad, because a single Lascannon shot does nothing. One will hit, one might not on average.

OS doesn't make up for it.

But its not a single lascannon.

the number of lascannons never change

you take a list with 4 tactical squads with lascannons each or 1 dev squad with 4 las cannons. it doesnt change..... now with split fire there shooting 4 single shot for 4 different units isnt any different from 4 single shots from one unit. the only time it could be is with movement or character buffs.

which is mitigated by the sally chapter tactics

some times you may have problems to bring 4 Tacticals each with one Lascannon. For example, when facing a couple Rhinos each loaded with 10 Berserkers, You might want Lascannon to bust that Rhino first then unleash a hail of Bolters and a few plasma shots into those Berserkers. If you take 4 squads of Tactical Marines each with one Lascannon, your Bolters in each might still wasted in this scenario Due to the sequence of shooting (i.e. a Squad must shoot / fight at the same time Even they can all split fire now).

sossen wrote:

Devastators and tac marines are equally expensive.

They're not since you pay the heavy weapons but you can run tac squads even with no upgrades and don't regretting it. 5 marines with a plasma gun are 83 points, 185 with a razorback equipped with a storm bolter and twin assault cannon. Very cheap for the unit overall.

The plan is to bring 3 tac squads and 1-2 dev squads. I wouldn't bother with lascannons in tac squads, I'd go with plasma guns, or heavy flamers if I was a BA. More CPs and more bodies than a full elite oriented SM list with no tacticals. That's what I usually do with SW, they can be effective even with units of wolf guards instead of grey hunters but you'll end up with less bodies and less CP for the same cost. Sometimes you may face a list in which lascannons are not that good, like an ork horde, and having more cheap bodies is better than having super elites that fires apocaliptic weapons with more accuracy.

A list with scouts, dev and veterans as the only infantries can be more than decent, IMHO SM are a very very good army overall, but I think tac squads are quite helpful for their cost and more Take-All-Comers oriented.

Tac Squads are still fine choices. I think they're the best troops choice in the book, but that's not saying a ton. Intercessors can have their place, as can Scouts, but I wouldn't use either of them to full out the bulk of my troops choices.

The Advantages that Tac Squads have is the ability to outfit them with a combi- and special weapon that match to perform a specific task. It can get you extra plasma for attacking elite units, or melta for anti-tank or whatever. And they can ride in Twin Assault Cannon Razors, which are some of the better units in the book ATM. Being able to give them a pair of specials in 5-man min squads lets you decide what role you want your troops choices to bolster, and get more of that kind of effect into your list. While Scouts and Intercessors can be survivable objective campers, you can have Tac Squads driving around the board and attacking specific targets that they've been outfitted to handle. There's a benefit to having troops that can be given those specific tasks.

They're not amazing by any stretch, but betweren the transport firepower/mobility, the combi-/special-weapon combo in 5-man squads and ObSec, I think they're the most useful Troop choice to take in multiples. Particularly not that you can pair not only captains, but also lieutenants with matching weapons as the 6th rider in the Razor; giving them more dedicated special weapons, and making them more effective at wielding them. It's one of the few ways to get 3x Plasma or 3x Melta (with rerolls) into a mobile squad and still satisfy what equates to a "troops tax" in this codex.

Just my $0.02.

 Blackie wrote:
Tacticals unlock the battallion detachment for +3CP, without them you can field 1 CP with any other detachment. Lascannons really want some CP since those D6 can be a roll of 1 or 2. I usually spend my CP with drukhari rerolling dark lances D6 damage rolls.

Scouts are also troops but they need a different strategy, they still unlock dedicated transports but no one is going to embark them. With 3-4 tac squads in transports the SM lists gain mobility and become more tough with 30+ wounds with T7 and 3+ save.

Killing scouts is easier than killing rhinos/razorbacks. I've never had problems with lists based around scouts.

Devastators and other toys are more expensive than tac squads, in a regular game (with 5-7 turns, I'm not referring to those stupid tournaments that end turn 3) cheap bodies should be helpful.

1. Scouts do that for cheaper and get the ML, which is basically as good as the Lascannon.
2. That's because Scouts don't NEED to be embarked. So they unlock the Razorbacks they don't need to actually ride if you're using them up close.
3. I already gave a scenario. You can either use 4 Tactical Squads with 4 Lascannons, or 3 Devastators squads with 6 Lascannons and Cherubs. Once you add the Signum the choice is pretty darn clear. 5 extra bodies does nothing for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Tac Squads are still fine choices. I think they're the best troops choice in the book, but that's not saying a ton. Intercessors can have their place, as can Scouts, but I wouldn't use either of them to full out the bulk of my troops choices.

The Advantages that Tac Squads have is the ability to outfit them with a combi- and special weapon that match to perform a specific task. It can get you extra plasma for attacking elite units, or melta for anti-tank or whatever. And they can ride in Twin Assault Cannon Razors, which are some of the better units in the book ATM. Being able to give them a pair of specials in 5-man min squads lets you decide what role you want your troops choices to bolster, and get more of that kind of effect into your list. While Scouts and Intercessors can be survivable objective campers, you can have Tac Squads driving around the board and attacking specific targets that they've been outfitted to handle. There's a benefit to having troops that can be given those specific tasks.

They're not amazing by any stretch, but betweren the transport firepower/mobility, the combi-/special-weapon combo in 5-man squads and ObSec, I think they're the most useful Troop choice to take in multiples. Particularly not that you can pair not only captains, but also lieutenants with matching weapons as the 6th rider in the Razor; giving them more dedicated special weapons, and making them more effective at wielding them. It's one of the few ways to get 3x Plasma or 3x Melta (with rerolls) into a mobile squad and still satisfy what equates to a "troops tax" in this codex.

Just my $0.02.

Scouts do the special weapons thing cheaper. You need to get the Tactical Marines in a Transport which is expensive. Instead, you can run 2 Scout squads with Combi Weapons and be cheaper about it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

sossen wrote:

Devastators and tac marines are equally expensive.

They're not since you pay the heavy weapons but you can run tac squads even with no upgrades and don't regretting it. 5 marines with a plasma gun are 83 points, 185 with a razorback equipped with a storm bolter and twin assault cannon. Very cheap for the unit overall.

The plan is to bring 3 tac squads and 1-2 dev squads. I wouldn't bother with lascannons in tac squads, I'd go with plasma guns, or heavy flamers if I was a BA. More CPs and more bodies than a full elite oriented SM list with no tacticals. That's what I usually do with SW, they can be effective even with units of wolf guards instead of grey hunters but you'll end up with less bodies and less CP for the same cost. Sometimes you may face a list in which lascannons are not that good, like an ork horde, and having more cheap bodies is better than having super elites that fires apocaliptic weapons with more accuracy.

A list with scouts, dev and veterans as the only infantries can be more than decent, IMHO SM are a very very good army overall, but I think tac squads are quite helpful for their cost and more Take-All-Comers oriented.

You can use Scouts and Devastators instead and save points.

Tactical squads have been among the top performers in my lists lately. I run them ten strong with one plasma gun in a double storm bolter Rhino. Cheap and versatile. 26 bolter shots at rapid fire range is surprisingly effective, especially if you can scrounge a re-roll aura from somewhere. As has been said before, a storm bolter on the sergeant is a steal at 2 points and would push this number to 28. They can screen, reinforce, rush objectives, hold objectives, murder light infantry. I've made more than one "hero shot" with the plasma gun engaging a target on supercharge, stripping the last couple of wounds off a vehicle or monster.

Intercessors don't get the mobility and scouts don't get the armor and weapon options. Devastators get more heavy kit but I'm reluctant to put such expensive guns on such fragile platforms. In my army, tactical marines hit a sweet spot and I normally include two or three of these squads.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Scouts do the special weapons thing cheaper.

Except they don't. You can only take one special weapon per 5 guys instead of 2, which keeps you from being able to do ...everything I described using Tac Squads for.