Psychic Focus is fething stupid.

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**nintura**

Grey Templar wrote:
nintura wrote:
So wait, GK's get Smite-Lite AND another power on all their guys?

Yeah. Bad smite and a power that 80% of the time you can never use because you'll have given it to your Librarian to cast. So it really might as well not be there at all.

Only thing that makes them feel like psykers is they can all attempt to deny.

You're getting 2 powers and you're complaining.... We get Smite-Light and that's it. Nothing more. We have to use a strategem just to TRADE in smite-lite.

**Backspacehacker**

I'm gonna be real honest here, this entire thread reads like when the rip tide got needed and all the tau players cried. Sorry your powers are not over powered anymore?

**Breng77**

daedalus wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

You are also not really paying for it.

Regular marine = 13 points
Strike Squad = 19 points
Nemesis Force sword = free
Force Sword = 12 points

If a regular marine could take a force sword he would be 6 points more than a GK. So lets chalk that up to a discount due to having fewer attacks than things that can take Force swords in most marine factions (though your characters benefit from that same discount)

On top of that you get a weak version of smite, re-roll wounds against daemons, the ability to deny psychic powers, and teleport strike vs Chapter tactics. So lets call that a wash for this purpose.

So you are paying 6 points for a force sword, seems to me that maybe you were balanced around not having every squad cast any power every turn.

There is a valid point here, but I have some criticisms. Grey Knights do get a lot for the points spent when you start adding the differences between standard marines and strikes up ala carte. Fundamentally however, any given model in the game should be paying (moderately to significantly) more for optional equipment than a model with it built in. The rationale is because when you can only take as many of them as you need, you can better optimize a unit for a given purpose. There are also some drawbacks to the way this is handled in the current system. GK do not get any point reduction for replacing their NFW with a psycannon, for example. And the Terminator weapons are grossly more expensive for the privilege of... I guess keeping theirs? Since relentless isn't a thing anymore, I'm not sure what the justification is otherwise, but that's probably another topic right there.

Of course, when an army can potentially consist of 20-50 primaris psykers unless you house rule a limit to detachments (and that list would likely be deceptively powerful) I don't see anything out of hand about giving GK the Scooty Puff Senior version of smite, or at least on the HQs. Hell, at least the _librarian_. As it stands now, I don't know why you would take one now.

You'll see that this trend continues if you compare guard to marines as well (though that gets trickier because of the profile changes not having a point cost).

I agree that GK characters should have regular smite, it is dumb that they don't. I don't agree on troops, and the house rule to detachment limits is straight from the rule book recommendations and what most tournaments seem to be using.

I also agree to a point about paying more for optional equipment, however that doesn't mean the force weapons in GK are worth less than 6 points on a strike model when marines pay 12 for them, at least not significantly so. A power sword is 4 points and straight up worse than a NF sword. They also do get a point reduction for giving up the force weapon. Which suggests again that the force weapon is being valued a 6 points (the difference between terminator and power armor weapon costs) by GW. Which is the difference between tactical marines and GK. GK units have the same issue they always have, they have a ton of bells and whistles you don't actually want that you pay some amount of points for. If I could run a strike squad at 15 points per model (with storm bolters included in that price) and no force weapons I would every day.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
pismakron wrote:
Without psychic focus the game would be totally and supremely broken. And the psychich phase in 7th edition was about as much fun as a severe flogging.

Except it goes too far. Sure, it would be broken to get 2+ invulns on every Grey Knight unit. But giving different units all +1 invuln or Hammerhand would be totally fine.

Psychic Focus basically makes psyker heavy armies wasted points.

You have yet to show any place those points have been wasted.

**MagicJuggler**

Breng77 wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
xeen wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
I remember Lash. Lash was a boogeyman used to scare scrub players because it was an infantry-manipulating gimmick in a game of Razorback spam.
Ahh the good ole lash and vindicator trick.

Back when blasts were half-strength vs vehicles if they weren't centered? Sure. Oh yeah, but sure you could take T4 Obliterators at 70 points per lascannon shot to help you! Just had to deal with cover being 4+ by default, and 50% cover. Oh yeah, and don't even think of going up against Eldar, since Runes of Warding meant you took Psychic Tests on 3d6, and any roll of 12+ caused Perils. I swear, Eldrad killed more Rune Priests by simply sitting back and putting on a trollface as their heads exploded.

Oh yea Runes of Warding. I forgot about that. Would kill my little, overpriced aspiring sorcerer who was trying to use Bolt of Change for what was basically a laser-cannon shot. I also forgot about Jaws. Actually thinking about it after playing 2nd - 6th, and my little experience with 7th, these are probably the best psychic rules GW ever developed.

I actually liked 7th best because I liked the idea of warp charge, resource allocation, etc. It could be the brief dalliance I had with Warmachine talking though. The system clearly had its flaws, yet they truly didn't become 100% noticable until Wrath of Magnus basically doubled down on said flaws for such a system. Also, Siphon Magic was the worst-designed power ever.

Really, rewriting Wrath of Magnus has been sort of a homebrew obsession of mine, simply because I was so angry over how sloppy the rules for it were.

I disagree with your assessment that the flaws weren't noticeable until wrath of magnus. I saw them from the get go, 7th as written was a terrible set of psychic rules. 8th is by far superior as far as balance is concerned. Could better rules exist sure, but your argument always seems to be "make powers weaker" at that point why not just make powers like auras/attacks from other characters and call it a day. GW wants them to be cool unique things that are risky to use, which is what 8th makes them, better than any previous edition.

And I disagree with your assessment that they're cool unique things, especially ones that are risky to use. The issues with Psyker powers in 7th were that scaling was logarithmic for linear costs, thus making it favor supercasters and buffing super units. Likewise casting and denial were binary. All issues in 8th. The game has changed them from being a support techpiece, to being "another gun" in an extreme form, as armies like Tzeentch Smitespam demonstrate.

**Breng77**

Grey Templar wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

Show me those points, I broke it down for you you pay 6 points per model more than a regular marine, and have a forceweapon. Is you argument that having a force weapon is not worth 6 points when a power sword is 4? SO tell me where these extra points are? You are paying for having force weapons on every model, there is not a lot of points for Smite + 1 power, you are paying a minimal amount for these abilities at best. remember you also get teleport strike.

You're not taking into account losing the vanilla marine rules and options. Opportunity cost is a thing you know.

What rules and options?

Combat squads - both have it
ATSKNF - both have it
Chapter tactics - GK get psychic powers/deny, teleport strike on tons of units, re-roll wounds against daemons so that is a wash at worst. now maybe you like other CT better but this would be the GK chapter tactic.
Other units? - I guess but you have units they don't have as well.
Weapon options? I guess you cannot take things like devestators, or predators, but you have some access to alternatives that fill those roles.

**Grey Templar**

Backspacehacker wrote:
I'm gonna be real honest here, this entire thread reads like when the rip tide got needed and all the tau players cried. Sorry your powers are not over powered anymore?

First off, you'll have to prove that they were overpowered last edition. Psychic powers were just the one thing Grey Knights were actually strong at doing.

Second, even if they were OP. Thats no excuse for nerfing them below the power curve. If you just disallowed targeting the same friendly unit with the same power it would be perfectly fine.

**Marmatag**

So, I play Grey Knights as my main army. I go to at least 1 tournament a month.

Psychic Focus isn't inherently the problem with our army. 6 spells per turn is actually pretty good, we are one of few armies in the game that will actually be doing this. Also, every one of our powers is useful. Hammerhand is probably the most situational, and i'd imagine it's the least cast.

In a general sense, I would say that if you fail a power, you should be allowed to attempt it again from a different psyker. But, that's a broad change that could easily imbalance other, stronger psychic armies.

My core problem is that our smite is simply too weak.

I would revise it as follows:
Base Range: 18"
Base Damage: 1 mortal wound
Vs Daemons: 3 mortal wounds, regardless of casting score
Vs Non-Daemons: a roll of 10+ results in D3 mortal wounds

This would generally give me a reason to cast it. If they insist on keeping it at 12", we should be able to pick the *model* that's affected.

I would also alter Grey Knights such that we can ignore perils on double sixes once per phase. Call it Legendary Psykers rule.

If i'm being a bit greedy, i would also give us back Cleansing Flame as a 7th power. Yeah, I know, it breaks the mould, but still.

Cleansing Flame
All enemy units within 3D6" of the Psyker suffer 1 mortal wound, and suffer a -1 to hit penalty for the controlling player's next turn on a 4+.

**Breng77**

MagicJuggler wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
xeen wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
I remember Lash. Lash was a boogeyman used to scare scrub players because it was an infantry-manipulating gimmick in a game of Razorback spam.
Ahh the good ole lash and vindicator trick.

Back when blasts were half-strength vs vehicles if they weren't centered? Sure. Oh yeah, but sure you could take T4 Obliterators at 70 points per lascannon shot to help you! Just had to deal with cover being 4+ by default, and 50% cover. Oh yeah, and don't even think of going up against Eldar, since Runes of Warding meant you took Psychic Tests on 3d6, and any roll of 12+ caused Perils. I swear, Eldrad killed more Rune Priests by simply sitting back and putting on a trollface as their heads exploded.

Oh yea Runes of Warding. I forgot about that. Would kill my little, overpriced aspiring sorcerer who was trying to use Bolt of Change for what was basically a laser-cannon shot. I also forgot about Jaws. Actually thinking about it after playing 2nd - 6th, and my little experience with 7th, these are probably the best psychic rules GW ever developed.

I actually liked 7th best because I liked the idea of warp charge, resource allocation, etc. It could be the brief dalliance I had with Warmachine talking though. The system clearly had its flaws, yet they truly didn't become 100% noticable until Wrath of Magnus basically doubled down on said flaws for such a system. Also, Siphon Magic was the worst-designed power ever.

Really, rewriting Wrath of Magnus has been sort of a homebrew obsession of mine, simply because I was so angry over how sloppy the rules for it were.

I disagree with your assessment that the flaws weren't noticeable until wrath of magnus. I saw them from the get go, 7th as written was a terrible set of psychic rules. 8th is by far superior as far as balance is concerned. Could better rules exist sure, but your argument always seems to be "make powers weaker" at that point why not just make powers like auras/attacks from other characters and call it a day. GW wants them to be cool unique things that are risky to use, which is what 8th makes them, better than any previous edition.

And I disagree with your assessment that they're cool unique things, especially ones that are risky to use. The issues with Psyker powers in 7th were that scaling was logarithmic for linear costs, thus making it favor supercasters and buffing super units. Likewise casting and denial were binary. All issues in 8th. The game has changed them from being a support techpiece, to being "another gun" in an extreme form, as armies like Tzeentch Smitespam demonstrate.

8th has allowed armies with single psykers to actually use them, unlike 7th. Denial is even to cast in 8th, 7th if you were a super psyker army, you got off all your powers, and denied your opponents. Far less all or nothing in 8th than in 7th.

You can design a system that is different, but that isn't what exists in the game. You can think they aren't cool unique things, but it is how they are written for most armies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Backspacehacker wrote:
I'm gonna be real honest here, this entire thread reads like when the rip tide got needed and all the tau players cried. Sorry your powers are not over powered anymore?

First off, you'll have to prove that they were overpowered last edition. Psychic powers were just the one thing Grey Knights were actually strong at doing.

Second, even if they were OP. Thats no excuse for nerfing them below the power curve. If you just disallowed targeting the same friendly unit with the same power it would be perfectly fine.

Again no it wouldn't, a whole army that can gate is not fine, a whole army that can snipe characters with mortal wounds, not fine, a whole army that deals D3 mortal wounds per unit ever turn not fine (which is why they don't have full smite.)

The only fix needed is to make it limited to a single successful cast. The rule forces variety of powers. Otherwise people would spam only the single best power.

**Grey Templar**

Breng77 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

Show me those points, I broke it down for you you pay 6 points per model more than a regular marine, and have a forceweapon. Is you argument that having a force weapon is not worth 6 points when a power sword is 4? SO tell me where these extra points are? You are paying for having force weapons on every model, there is not a lot of points for Smite + 1 power, you are paying a minimal amount for these abilities at best. remember you also get teleport strike.

You're not taking into account losing the vanilla marine rules and options. Opportunity cost is a thing you know.

What rules and options?

Combat squads - both have it
ATSKNF - both have it
Chapter tactics - GK get psychic powers/deny, teleport strike on tons of units, re-roll wounds against daemons so that is a wash at worst. now maybe you like other CT better but this would be the GK chapter tactic.
Other units? - I guess but you have units they don't have as well.
Weapon options? I guess you cannot take things like devestators, or predators, but you have some access to alternatives that fill those roles.

No weapons with >24" range on our basic infantry.
Overreliance on our Strategems, which means we have to take lots of troops choices and HQs to get a decent number of command points. Which means very few points to spend on those "other units nobody else gets".
Only half of our units can use Teleport strike in matched play. How would you like it if only half your Vanilla marine units could benefit from your chapter tactics?
Most of the time, the only power half to 2/3 of our lists can cast is Smite. At range 12 and only 1 mortal wound(with the chance of perils killing D3 of your models). Again, how would you like it if only half your units could use your chapter tactics?

**daedalus**

Grey Templar wrote:

No weapons with >24" range on our basic infantry.

I'm honestly unconvinced that any of the special weapons are worth taking.

**Marmatag**

Daemons can pretty much do the same thing with a real smite.

Rites of Banishment was too harsh in its nerf of our smite.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

No weapons with >24" range on our basic infantry.

I'm honestly unconvinced that any of the special weapons are worth taking.

Psilencers and Incinerators are.

Actually with the new stratagem psilencers can be absolutely devastating.

**Breng77**

Grey Templar wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Breng77 wrote:

Show me those points, I broke it down for you you pay 6 points per model more than a regular marine, and have a forceweapon. Is you argument that having a force weapon is not worth 6 points when a power sword is 4? SO tell me where these extra points are? You are paying for having force weapons on every model, there is not a lot of points for Smite + 1 power, you are paying a minimal amount for these abilities at best. remember you also get teleport strike.

You're not taking into account losing the vanilla marine rules and options. Opportunity cost is a thing you know.

What rules and options?

Combat squads - both have it
ATSKNF - both have it
Chapter tactics - GK get psychic powers/deny, teleport strike on tons of units, re-roll wounds against daemons so that is a wash at worst. now maybe you like other CT better but this would be the GK chapter tactic.
Other units? - I guess but you have units they don't have as well.
Weapon options? I guess you cannot take things like devestators, or predators, but you have some access to alternatives that fill those roles.

No weapons with >24" range on our basic infantry.
Overreliance on our Strategems, which means we have to take lots of troops choices and HQs to get a decent number of command points. Which means very few points to spend on those "other units nobody else gets".
Only half of our units can use Teleport strike in matched play. How would you like it if only half your Vanilla marine units could benefit from your chapter tactics?
Most of the time, the only power half to 2/3 of our lists can cast is Smite. At range 12 and only 1 mortal wound(with the chance of perils killing D3 of your models). Again, how would you like it if only half your units could use your chapter tactics?

Except they all get smite, and deny, and another power, so they all still benefit. Any over 24+ weapon is paid for on other troops, usually at high cost. Also, if a space marine player makes you of you know vehicles it is quite possible that half their units don't use their chapter tactics....or any imperial fist assault units, shoot black Templars etc etc. Not uncommon at all.

You trade not having long range weapons for better mid range shooting. So....still not showing how you are paying a ton of points for something, that you just flat are not paying a ton of points for.

**nintura**

I dont get this. Grey Knights are not the most powerful psykers. They are just all psykers. That's the stipulation for getting into the chapter. They are not super psykers. The fact that you can have two powers on each squad, and still be cheaper than say Rubrics, is just disgusting. The fact that you want your every day Grey Knight trooper to be a better Psyker than a Thousand Sons Scarab Occult Terminator Psyker is just disgusting and pointless.

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
So, I play Grey Knights as my main army. I go to at least 1 tournament a month.

Psychic Focus isn't inherently the problem with our army. 6 spells per turn is actually pretty good, we are one of few armies in the game that will actually be doing this. Also, every one of our powers is useful. Hammerhand is probably the most situational, and i'd imagine it's the least cast.

In a general sense, I would say that if you fail a power, you should be allowed to attempt it again from a different psyker. But, that's a broad change that could easily imbalance other, stronger psychic armies.

My core problem is that our smite is simply too weak.

I would revise it as follows:
Base Range: 18"
Base Damage: 1 mortal wound
Vs Daemons: 3 mortal wounds, regardless of casting score
Vs Non-Daemons: a roll of 10+ results in D3 mortal wounds

This would generally give me a reason to cast it. If they insist on keeping it at 12", we should be able to pick the *model* that's affected.

I would also alter Grey Knights such that we can ignore perils on double sixes once per phase. Call it Legendary Psykers rule.

If i'm being a bit greedy, i would also give us back Cleansing Flame as a 7th power. Yeah, I know, it breaks the mould, but still.

Cleansing Flame
All enemy units within 3D6" of the Psyker suffer 1 mortal wound, and suffer a -1 to hit penalty for the controlling player's next turn on a 4+.

Yeah - I agree. The problem is baby smite.

**Kap'n Krump**

I agree that it feels like it unfairly limits psychic heavy armies.

That being said, however, if it didn't exist, GKs would be pretty damn broken. Every single unit being able to teleport more or less at will, every turn? One librarian spamming vortex of doom, or granting multiple units sanctuary?

I wish there were a bit more middle ground, but an all-teleporting-all-the-time army is completely broken in just about every mission.

**MagicJuggler**

Breng77 wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
xeen wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
I remember Lash. Lash was a boogeyman used to scare scrub players because it was an infantry-manipulating gimmick in a game of Razorback spam.
Ahh the good ole lash and vindicator trick.

Back when blasts were half-strength vs vehicles if they weren't centered? Sure. Oh yeah, but sure you could take T4 Obliterators at 70 points per lascannon shot to help you! Just had to deal with cover being 4+ by default, and 50% cover. Oh yeah, and don't even think of going up against Eldar, since Runes of Warding meant you took Psychic Tests on 3d6, and any roll of 12+ caused Perils. I swear, Eldrad killed more Rune Priests by simply sitting back and putting on a trollface as their heads exploded.

Oh yea Runes of Warding. I forgot about that. Would kill my little, overpriced aspiring sorcerer who was trying to use Bolt of Change for what was basically a laser-cannon shot. I also forgot about Jaws. Actually thinking about it after playing 2nd - 6th, and my little experience with 7th, these are probably the best psychic rules GW ever developed.

I actually liked 7th best because I liked the idea of warp charge, resource allocation, etc. It could be the brief dalliance I had with Warmachine talking though. The system clearly had its flaws, yet they truly didn't become 100% noticable until Wrath of Magnus basically doubled down on said flaws for such a system. Also, Siphon Magic was the worst-designed power ever.

Really, rewriting Wrath of Magnus has been sort of a homebrew obsession of mine, simply because I was so angry over how sloppy the rules for it were.

I disagree with your assessment that the flaws weren't noticeable until wrath of magnus. I saw them from the get go, 7th as written was a terrible set of psychic rules. 8th is by far superior as far as balance is concerned. Could better rules exist sure, but your argument always seems to be "make powers weaker" at that point why not just make powers like auras/attacks from other characters and call it a day. GW wants them to be cool unique things that are risky to use, which is what 8th makes them, better than any previous edition.

And I disagree with your assessment that they're cool unique things, especially ones that are risky to use. The issues with Psyker powers in 7th were that scaling was logarithmic for linear costs, thus making it favor supercasters and buffing super units. Likewise casting and denial were binary. All issues in 8th. The game has changed them from being a support techpiece, to being "another gun" in an extreme form, as armies like Tzeentch Smitespam demonstrate.

8th has allowed armies with single psykers to actually use them, unlike 7th. Denial is even to cast in 8th, 7th if you were a super psyker army, you got off all your powers, and denied your opponents. Far less all or nothing in 8th than in 7th.

You can design a system that is different, but that isn't what exists in the game. You can think they aren't cool unique things, but it is how they are written for most armies.

In 8th, the attacker wins ties versus denial, and the strongest powers are high in WC cost, so the powers you want to deny the most are the ones you have the least chance of doing so. Either way, it's binary. Unlike a squad of Marines shooting at a squad of Orks, you don't get a normalized distribution. Either you cast the power or you don't.

And as mentioned, Wrath of Magnus compounded this. While Daemon armies could get large amounts of WC already, such armies tended to rely on Fateweaver, Grimoire, and stacking defensive buffs on Plague Drones and Screamers. True summoning didn't really take off until Wrath of Magnus added Horror Splitting, and Heralds Anarchic. That the top LVO list this year was able to combine that with an Ordnance Tyrant gunline is what took it over the top. Summoning by itself was an annoyance, but deadly as support to an army that was actually doing something.

**Xenomancers**

nintura wrote:
I dont get this. Grey Knights are not the most powerful psykers. They are just all psykers. That's the stipulation for getting into the chapter. They are not super psykers. The fact that you can have two powers on each squad, and still be cheaper than say Rubrics, is just disgusting. The fact that you want your every day Gray Knight trooper to be a better Psyker than a Thousand Sons Scarab Occult Terminator Psyker is just disgusting and pointless.

False - greyknights are the most powerful psykers. They are specifically chosen based on their psychic abilities. They don't recruit like a regular chapter.

**nintura**

Kap'n Krump wrote:
I agree that it feels like it unfairly limits psychic heavy armies.

That being said, however, if it didn't exist, GKs would be pretty damn broken. Every single unit being able to teleport more or less at will, every turn? One librarian spamming vortex of doom, or granting multiple units sanctuary?

I wish there were a bit more middle ground, but an all-teleporting-all-the-time army is completely broken in just about every mission.

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
nintura wrote:
I dont get this. Grey Knights are not the most powerful psykers. They are just all psykers. That's the stipulation for getting into the chapter. They are not super psykers. The fact that you can have two powers on each squad, and still be cheaper than say Rubrics, is just disgusting. The fact that you want your every day Gray Knight trooper to be a better Psyker than a Thousand Sons Scarab Occult Terminator Psyker is just disgusting and pointless.
False - greyknights are the most powerful psykers. They are specifically chosen based on their psychic abilities. They don't recruit like a regular chapter.

False. 1k Sons were the original sorcerer chapter and fluff wise are still more powerful psychically. The only other faction that you would put above them would be Ulthwe.

**Marmatag**

nintura wrote:
Kap'n Krump wrote:
I agree that it feels like it unfairly limits psychic heavy armies.

That being said, however, if it didn't exist, GKs would be pretty damn broken. Every single unit being able to teleport more or less at will, every turn? One librarian spamming vortex of doom, or granting multiple units sanctuary?

I wish there were a bit more middle ground, but an all-teleporting-all-the-time army is completely broken in just about every mission.

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Actually, Astra Militarum can cast a lot more, with Primaris Psykers. Daemons can also cast a lot more full power smites.

Even if our smite isn't full power smite, it's not hard to see that 1 mortal wound is simply too weak.

**nintura**

Marmatag wrote:
nintura wrote:
Kap'n Krump wrote:
I agree that it feels like it unfairly limits psychic heavy armies.

That being said, however, if it didn't exist, GKs would be pretty damn broken. Every single unit being able to teleport more or less at will, every turn? One librarian spamming vortex of doom, or granting multiple units sanctuary?

I wish there were a bit more middle ground, but an all-teleporting-all-the-time army is completely broken in just about every mission.

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Actually, Astra Militarum can cast a lot more, with Primaris Psykers. Daemons can also cast a lot more full power smites.

Im not talking about who can cast more. These people are talking about every greyknight squad being able to cast a full on smite skill. Every squad. Hitting for multiple mortal wounds.

**Marmatag**

nintura wrote:

False. 1k Sons were the original sorcerer chapter and fluff wise are still more powerful psychically. The only other faction that you would put above them would be Ulthwe.

Grey Knights could easily be the loyal offshoot of Magnus' army.

**daedalus**

nintura wrote:

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Primaris psykers can net you 10 papa-smites. And that's something doable in a two detachment, 1850 point list. Wouldn't even be a quarter of the points.

**Marmatag**

nintura wrote:

Im not talking about who can cast more. These people are talking about every greyknight squad being able to cast a full on smite skill. Every squad. Hitting for multiple mortal wounds.

Right, and they'd have to be within 12" to do it, and as a faction, their infantry casting smite don't have any weapons outside of psilencers, incinerators, psycannons, and storm bolters.

We're not going to deep strike melta, plasma, etc.

We should get a normal smite on a cast of 10+, and should have an 18" smite.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
nintura wrote:

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Primaris psykers can net you 10 papa-smites. And that's something doable in a two detachment, 1850 point list. Wouldn't even be a quarter of the points.

Thank you, a million times this. it's something present in ETC lists.

**Grey Templar**

nintura wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
nintura wrote:
Kap'n Krump wrote:
I agree that it feels like it unfairly limits psychic heavy armies.

That being said, however, if it didn't exist, GKs would be pretty damn broken. Every single unit being able to teleport more or less at will, every turn? One librarian spamming vortex of doom, or granting multiple units sanctuary?

I wish there were a bit more middle ground, but an all-teleporting-all-the-time army is completely broken in just about every mission.

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Actually, Astra Militarum can cast a lot more, with Primaris Psykers. Daemons can also cast a lot more full power smites.

Im not talking about who can cast more. These people are talking about every greyknight squad being able to cast a full on smite skill. Every squad. Hitting for multiple mortal wounds.

I don't know about full on smite. But at least D3 wounds. Range 12 instead of 18 is already a big drawback. Especially since its not just 1 psyker, its 5-10 psykers.

Thousand Sons were not all psykers, unlike Grey Knights. Just a lot of them. Grey Knights every member is a full on psyker capable of being a librarian. The basic dudes in the terminator and strike squads just aren't there yet. Its why they'd get slightly worse smite and only one power of choice. But they should at least be allowed to use that power of choice, and not be relegated to being "bad smite" monkeys.

**nintura**

daedalus wrote:
nintura wrote:

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Primaris psykers can net you 10 papa-smites. And that's something doable in a two detachment, 1850 point list. Wouldn't even be a quarter of the points.

That's because they are the new shiny marines and they need to sell. All this bitching about not being equal. Imagine being a 300 point troops unit and still ONLY getting smite-lite and NO second power.

**Marmatag**

nintura wrote:
daedalus wrote:
nintura wrote:

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Primaris psykers can net you 10 papa-smites. And that's something doable in a two detachment, 1850 point list. Wouldn't even be a quarter of the points.

That's because they are the new shiny marines and they need to sell. All this bitching about not being equal. Imagine being a 300 point troops unit and still ONLY getting smite-lite and NO second power.

No, primaris psykers are NOT marines, they're Astra Militarum. They're like 40 points.

Imagine a 250 point infantry unit with 1 cast that IS smite lite. That's grey knights.

**Grey Templar**

nintura wrote:
daedalus wrote:
nintura wrote:

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Primaris psykers can net you 10 papa-smites. And that's something doable in a two detachment, 1850 point list. Wouldn't even be a quarter of the points.

That's because they are the new shiny marines and they need to sell. All this bitching about not being equal. Imagine being a 300 point troops unit and still ONLY getting smite-lite and NO second power.

Primarus Psykers are Imperial guard. They're super cheap.

Grey Knights are ~300 points a squad and I only get smite-lite and a 2nd power that realistically I will never use.

**nintura**

Marmatag wrote:
nintura wrote:
daedalus wrote:
nintura wrote:

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Primaris psykers can net you 10 papa-smites. And that's something doable in a two detachment, 1850 point list. Wouldn't even be a quarter of the points.

That's because they are the new shiny marines and they need to sell. All this bitching about not being equal. Imagine being a 300 point troops unit and still ONLY getting smite-lite and NO second power.

No, primaris psykers are NOT marines, they're Astra Militarum. They're like 40 points.

Imagine a 250 point infantry unit with 1 cast that IS smite lite. That's grey knights.

272 point infantry unit with 1 cast that IS smite lite. That's Thousand Sons. You at least get a second power for more options. Oh and all your weapons are force right?

**Grey Templar**

nintura wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
nintura wrote:
daedalus wrote:
nintura wrote:

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Primaris psykers can net you 10 papa-smites. And that's something doable in a two detachment, 1850 point list. Wouldn't even be a quarter of the points.

That's because they are the new shiny marines and they need to sell. All this bitching about not being equal. Imagine being a 300 point troops unit and still ONLY getting smite-lite and NO second power.

No, primaris psykers are NOT marines, they're Astra Militarum. They're like 40 points.

Imagine a 250 point infantry unit with 1 cast that IS smite lite. That's grey knights.

272 point infantry unit with 1 cast that IS smite lite. That's Thousand Sons. You at least get a second power for more options.

Thousand Sons are not all psykers, unlike Grey Knights. Only the Sorcerors of the thousand sons were psykers. Their rank and file were normal marines. Grey Knights, everybody is a psyker.

**nintura**

Grey Templar wrote:
nintura wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
nintura wrote:
daedalus wrote:
nintura wrote:

Forget spamming powers. These people are talking about each unit being able to cast a full powered Smite. Could you imagine that? How many smites would you fit into an 1850 list? 6? 10?

Primaris psykers can net you 10 papa-smites. And that's something doable in a two detachment, 1850 point list. Wouldn't even be a quarter of the points.

That's because they are the new shiny marines and they need to sell. All this bitching about not being equal. Imagine being a 300 point troops unit and still ONLY getting smite-lite and NO second power.

No, primaris psykers are NOT marines, they're Astra Militarum. They're like 40 points.

Imagine a 250 point infantry unit with 1 cast that IS smite lite. That's grey knights.

272 point infantry unit with 1 cast that IS smite lite. That's Thousand Sons. You at least get a second power for more options.

Thousand Sons are not all psykers, unlike Grey Knights. Only the Sorcerors of the thousand sons were psykers. Their rank and file were normal marines. Grey Knights, everybody is a psyker.

I believe I said that right? Pretty sure. Thousand Sons were the original psykers, and now backed up by the god of sorcery. They were the most devastating legion prior to the Heresy because of their sorcery.

Having your whole faction as psykers does not make you the most powerful. 100 white belts does not a Chuck Norris make.