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Go be a good tactician and buy 6 dreadknights!

Smite smite smite!

What exactly is the issue? GK seem fine to me when looking at their rules, their stats and how they work on the table. Yes, going above 2k points reduces their effectiveness, but the Matched Play rules are intended for just that - 2000 points matches.

Sisters could argue that they get only 1 AoF at all for free, which is really strong when combined with Celestine at 1000 points and fine at 2000 points.

So, yeah. the limit is meant for 2000 points, and it's not like GK are getting run over by everyone else all the time - see actual stats.

Someone kept yelling "but this is not a proper balance mechanic" - what exactly do you propose then? I've not read all of the thread, granted, but I haven't seen an actual suggestion - did I miss that? Letting psyker-heavy forces spam all the powers all the time isn't a solution since then those armies would be way too strong at 2000 points.

MagicJuggler wrote:What GW *should* have done IMO was refine the 7e psyker system, so there were more WC per caster, but no "pooling." Rather than casting and denial being all-or-nothing success thresholds, casting would be by "Degrees of Success", and Denial would simply subtract successes from casting, rather than the 7e system of "you needed 5 sixes to deny but only rolled 4", or needing to roll higher than the caster to deny. "Try rolling a 13."

What I mean by degrees of success, is that powers themselves start off weak, but rolling extra successes (up to 4 total) would improve the overall effect, while Denial can reduce the overall strength rather than it being binary pass-fail.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except our Smite is worse than everybody elses, except against Daemons. We can only do 1 Mortal Wound instead of D3.

Really? So my 1 wound Aspering Sorcerer that I pay 43 points minimum for is better off how? I can very occasionally (~10%) have the chance to do 3 wounds but then I will fail to cast anything twice as much (8% comapred to 19.5%) as you do. Let's not even touch on the fact that when I perils I am losing a minimum of 43 points compared to your 19, and I lose the ability to cast spells with the unit, which can't cast anything but a reduced smite anyways, remind me agian why I'm paying 30 more points for a unit that can't cast spells and can't do any damage with shooting massive points for an upgrade. On top of that I have to make sure my Aspering Sorcerers aren't within 6" of my Charcters or ill be stripping wounds off of them as well. My Aspiring Sorcerers sucks pretty bad but I'm still not willng to say there the worst, because I am almost certain there are the worst.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:What GW *should* have done IMO was refine the 7e psyker system, so there were more WC per caster, but no "pooling." Rather than casting and denial being all-or-nothing success thresholds, casting would be by "Degrees of Success", and Denial would simply subtract successes from casting, rather than the 7e system of "you needed 5 sixes to deny but only rolled 4", or needing to roll higher than the caster to deny. "Try rolling a 13."

What I mean by degrees of success, is that powers themselves start off weak, but rolling extra successes (up to 4 total) would improve the overall effect, while Denial can reduce the overall strength rather than it being binary pass-fail.

Thanks!

I'd say that a refined psyker system slows the game down and the current iteration is a lot faster than what you propose. I don't think the Psychic phase should be much more complex than other "army special rules" like orders or Acts of Faith. It's fair that it is a bit more complex since quite a few armies have access to it, but it shouldn't be too much.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except our Smite is worse than everybody elses, except against Daemons. We can only do 1 Mortal Wound instead of D3.

Really? So my 1 wound Aspering Sorcerer that I pay 43 points minimum for is better off how? I can very occasionally (~10%) have the chance to do 3 wounds but then I will fail to cast anything twice as much (8% comapred to 19.5%) as you do. Let's not even touch on the fact that when I perils I am losing a minimum of 43 points compared to your 19, and I lose the ability to cast spells with the unit, which can't cast anything but a reduced smite anyways, remind me agian why I'm paying 30 more points for a unit that can't cast spells and can't do any damage with shooting massive points for an upgrade. On top of that I have to make sure my Aspering Sorcerers aren't within 6" of my Charcters or ill be stripping wounds off of them as well. My Aspiring Sorcerers sucks pretty bad but I'm still not willng to say there the worst, because I am almost certain there are the worst.

Your unit being bad doesn't preclude mine from being bad too. Just because someone has it worse off doesn't mean you lose all rights to want better.

Thousand Sons sound like they got a raw deal, again. Just like the last 4 chaos codices. Doesn't mean that Grey Knights haven't also gotten a raw deal too.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except our Smite is worse than everybody elses, except against Daemons. We can only do 1 Mortal Wound instead of D3.

Really? So my 1 wound Aspering Sorcerer that I pay 43 points minimum for is better off how? I can very occasionally (~10%) have the chance to do 3 wounds but then I will fail to cast anything twice as much (8% comapred to 19.5%) as you do. Let's not even touch on the fact that when I perils I am losing a minimum of 43 points compared to your 19, and I lose the ability to cast spells with the unit, which can't cast anything but a reduced smite anyways, remind me agian why I'm paying 30 more points for a unit that can't cast spells and can't do any damage with shooting massive points for an upgrade. On top of that I have to make sure my Aspering Sorcerers aren't within 6" of my Charcters or ill be stripping wounds off of them as well. My Aspiring Sorcerers sucks pretty bad but I'm still not willng to say there the worst, because I am almost certain there are the worst.

Your unit being bad doesn't preclude mine from being bad too. Just because someone has it worse off doesn't mean you lose all rights to want better.

Thousand Sons sound like they got a raw deal, again. Just like the last 4 chaos codices. Doesn't mean that Grey Knights haven't also gotten a raw deal too.

Primarch. Own Codex soon. Cry me a river.

Let me add: My Scout Marines are even worse psykers than TSons and GK.

Love how this thread has dwindled down into - greyknights aren't a real army.

You know...every chapter has a mortal enemy. For Ultramarines it's tyrandis, crimson fists it orks, dark angels it's CSM, so GK having a daemon mortal enemy doesn't make them "not a real army".

Most people get into greyknights because they have played marines - realized marines aren't really an elite style army and then see greyknights and see the elite units they want. Also - all these bonuses against daemons havn't even resulted in beating daemons in the majority of the games I play against them.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Love how this thread has dwindled down into - greyknights aren't a real army.

You know...every chapter has a mortal enemy. For Ultramarines it's tyrandis, crimson fists it orks, dark angels it's CSM, so GK having a daemon mortal enemy doesn't make them "not a real army".

Because Grey Knights don't have daemons as a "mortal enemy", they have daemons as their ONLY enemy. Tyranids could be chewing Terra alive and the Grey Knights wouldn't fight them because it's not their job.

nekooni wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:What GW *should* have done IMO was refine the 7e psyker system, so there were more WC per caster, but no "pooling." Rather than casting and denial being all-or-nothing success thresholds, casting would be by "Degrees of Success", and Denial would simply subtract successes from casting, rather than the 7e system of "you needed 5 sixes to deny but only rolled 4", or needing to roll higher than the caster to deny. "Try rolling a 13."

What I mean by degrees of success, is that powers themselves start off weak, but rolling extra successes (up to 4 total) would improve the overall effect, while Denial can reduce the overall strength rather than it being binary pass-fail.

Thanks!

I'd say that a refined psyker system slows the game down and the current iteration is a lot faster than what you propose. I don't think the Psychic phase should be much more complex than other "army special rules" like orders or Acts of Faith. It's fair that it is a bit more complex since quite a few armies have access to it, but it shouldn't be too much.

I understand where you're coming from, in terms of simplicity vs complexity. That being said, the non-binary casting system was partially inspired by how Kings of War handles magic, which is...admittedly extremely streamlined. KoW is the sort of game where you roll X dice to hit your own unit, and each success moves it 1" or so.

Of course, you could also add a rule for certain Psykers to be Bound. (Remember how WHFB used to have Bound Spells before 8th made them pointless?). A Bound Psyker can cast one power automatically at X successes (usually only one), thus letting you represent things from Horrors to Eldar Warlocks. What happens to a Lord of Change when it Perils? Does Tzeentch pull it into the Warp to recite spells on a chalkboard, Simpsons-style? ("I will not roll double 1s. I will not roll double 1s.")

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Love how this thread has dwindled down into - greyknights aren't a real army.

You know...every chapter has a mortal enemy. For Ultramarines it's tyrandis, crimson fists it orks, dark angels it's CSM, so GK having a daemon mortal enemy doesn't make them "not a real army".

Because Grey Knights don't have daemons as a "mortal enemy", they have daemons as their ONLY enemy. Tyranids could be chewing Terra alive and the Grey Knights wouldn't fight them because it's not their job.

This, essentially.

A rivalry and hatred between armies is not the same thing as "built to task".

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except our Smite is worse than everybody elses, except against Daemons. We can only do 1 Mortal Wound instead of D3.

Really? So my 1 wound Aspering Sorcerer that I pay 43 points minimum for is better off how? I can very occasionally (~10%) have the chance to do 3 wounds but then I will fail to cast anything twice as much (8% comapred to 19.5%) as you do. Let's not even touch on the fact that when I perils I am losing a minimum of 43 points compared to your 19, and I lose the ability to cast spells with the unit, which can't cast anything but a reduced smite anyways, remind me agian why I'm paying 30 more points for a unit that can't cast spells and can't do any damage with shooting massive points for an upgrade. On top of that I have to make sure my Aspering Sorcerers aren't within 6" of my Charcters or ill be stripping wounds off of them as well. My Aspiring Sorcerers sucks pretty bad but I'm still not willng to say there the worst, because I am almost certain there are the worst.

Lets not forget, GK get a second psyker power as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except our Smite is worse than everybody elses, except against Daemons. We can only do 1 Mortal Wound instead of D3.

Really? So my 1 wound Aspering Sorcerer that I pay 43 points minimum for is better off how? I can very occasionally (~10%) have the chance to do 3 wounds but then I will fail to cast anything twice as much (8% comapred to 19.5%) as you do. Let's not even touch on the fact that when I perils I am losing a minimum of 43 points compared to your 19, and I lose the ability to cast spells with the unit, which can't cast anything but a reduced smite anyways, remind me agian why I'm paying 30 more points for a unit that can't cast spells and can't do any damage with shooting massive points for an upgrade. On top of that I have to make sure my Aspering Sorcerers aren't within 6" of my Charcters or ill be stripping wounds off of them as well. My Aspiring Sorcerers sucks pretty bad but I'm still not willng to say there the worst, because I am almost certain there are the worst.

Your unit being bad doesn't preclude mine from being bad too. Just because someone has it worse off doesn't mean you lose all rights to want better.

Thousand Sons sound like they got a raw deal, again. Just like the last 4 chaos codices. Doesn't mean that Grey Knights haven't also gotten a raw deal too.

Primarch. Own Codex soon. Cry me a river.

Let me add: My Scout Marines are even worse psykers than TSons and GK.

Own codex soon? You've got yours already. So what? Primarch? You mean that 400+ point unit that dies in a turn of shooting if you're not careful and slow him down? He's awesome, sure. But people will refuse to play against him, or he'll do very little and you just lost 25% of your army. Sure, you can cheese him by taking the Changeling and other support units. But by himself, he's not a game winner.

I've seen a few people (or maybe it was just one?) saying that, if psychic focus was removed, every GK unit would have +1 Invuln, +1 to melee wound rolls, be Gating left and right and still be casting Vortex of Doom.

Two things to that:

1) You're going to fail some powers. You do have +1, so you'll succeed on more than you fail. But you will NOT make them all.
2) Limited powers. Unless you somehow get three casts per unit, you cannot have Hammerhand, Gate, and Sanctuary up on every unit, let alone be Vortexing as well.

As to the thread's purpose, I agree that Psychic Focus is dumb. Better to make balanced powers (which, honestly, most are) than put unneeded limitations on them.

The problem with making "balanced powers" is that they are still essentially free bonuses.

An example of a balanced power would be like "this unit gains a 6++ save" which people would then complain is awful and rarely used

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Love how this thread has dwindled down into - greyknights aren't a real army.

You know...every chapter has a mortal enemy. For Ultramarines it's tyrandis, crimson fists it orks, dark angels it's CSM, so GK having a daemon mortal enemy doesn't make them "not a real army".

Because Grey Knights don't have daemons as a "mortal enemy", they have daemons as their ONLY enemy. Tyranids could be chewing Terra alive and the Grey Knights wouldn't fight them because it's not their job.

Totally incorrect. If Terra was under siege, the Grey Knights would defend it. Their headquarters is in the same system too for crying out loud.

The old daemon hunters codex had specific justifications for grey knights to fight every army. The leader of the opposing force could be secretly possessed, be in possession of a daemonic artifact, or be an unwitting pawn in some daemon's schemes. The enemy force could have witnessed a daemonic incursion and needs to be eliminated to contain the taint. The damn codex has them fighting most other factions in the game. Remember the first war for Armageddon?

So something like ignoring penalties for running away, or doubling your number of shots with your basic gun, or fighting twice on your turn...

Would those are considered balanced?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem with making "balanced powers" is that they are still essentially free bonuses.

An example of a balanced power would be like "this unit gains a 6++ save" which people would then complain is awful and rarely used

Except they are not. Because every psyker pays for the ability to cast it's powers. And if they can cast more than one a turn they pay for that ability too. Unless you have more than (Number of powers) psykers. Then you pay for the ability to cast more than one power a turn but only cast smite with most of them.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So something like ignoring penalties for running away, or doubling your number of shots with your basic gun, or fighting twice on your turn...

Would those are considered balanced?

Two Orders usable only on a unit within 6"... only one Order per unit... on a 30pt T3 W4 5++ character that isn't a close combat machine or can cast mortal wound-causing 18" powers on anybody around him too?

Outside of Conscripts, which is an argument tread so often that even the Death Guard want nothing to do with that horse, Orders are balanced in the context of the army they're usable in.

The Sanctic Powers list is balanced around the use of Psychic Focus. +1 to Wound is absolutely better in 8th Ed than a +1 to Strength would be, and being able to cast it more than once per turn would easily become unbalanced. Gating units with a free deep strike move on a 5+ with 2d6 would absolutely be broken if you could cast it more than once per turn.

So sure, give GK a rule to ignore Psychic Focus. But then the entire Sanctic Psychic powers list needs to be redone to accommodate it.

 nintura wrote:

Own codex soon? You've got yours already. So what? Primarch? You mean that 400+ point unit that dies in a turn of shooting if you're not careful and slow him down? He's awesome, sure. But people will refuse to play against him, or he'll do very little and you just lost 25% of your army. Sure, you can cheese him by taking the Changeling and other support units. But by himself, he's not a game winner.

3++ ? How do you reliably kill that in one turn?

nekooni wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Own codex soon? You've got yours already. So what? Primarch? You mean that 400+ point unit that dies in a turn of shooting if you're not careful and slow him down? He's awesome, sure. But people will refuse to play against him, or he'll do very little and you just lost 25% of your army. Sure, you can cheese him by taking the Changeling and other support units. But by himself, he's not a game winner.

3++ ? How do you reliably kill that in one turn?

Go watch some batreps. it happens more often than you think. Even then you dont need to kill him, only get him low enough to where he loses effectiveness.

 nintura wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Own codex soon? You've got yours already. So what? Primarch? You mean that 400+ point unit that dies in a turn of shooting if you're not careful and slow him down? He's awesome, sure. But people will refuse to play against him, or he'll do very little and you just lost 25% of your army. Sure, you can cheese him by taking the Changeling and other support units. But by himself, he's not a game winner.

3++ ? How do you reliably kill that in one turn?

Go watch some batreps. it happens more often than you think. Even then you dont need to kill him, only get him low enough to where he loses effectiveness.

I've played against him myself. Even at 3 wounds he's not bad. A Land Raider loses HALF its movement speed just by dropping one tier, by comparison. Magnus loses what at half wounds, 2 inches of movement, 1 attack and his plus to psychic tests goes down to +1? Oh no!

*edit* And that Land Raider might have a 2+ save, but it has no invuln save, most assuredly not a 3++ rerolling 1's. And they're not that far apart in points. A Land Raider (Godhammer) is 391 points if I give him all 3 addon weapons.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Said armies should be "Turing complete" in a way, having tools to be all-comers.

That's not what Turing-complete means. At all. Doesn't even work as an analogy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:
It's also disingenious to compare Acts Of Faith to Psychic Powers.

Acts Of Faith you're looking at MAYBE 3 of them a turn. One army wide one, one from Celestine and one from a Imagifier which has a 50% chance of failure.

And the way they are designed makes them useless on most units. Anything that is in a transport can't make use of them. Units that wants to move fast can't use them either except for one per army (if you don't roll a 1) can't use them either because they will distance their imagifer. Seriously acts of faith are SO restricted that comparing them to psychic power is pretty damn shortsighted.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem with making "balanced powers" is that they are still essentially free bonuses.

An example of a balanced power would be like "this unit gains a 6++ save" which people would then complain is awful and rarely used

Except they are not. Because every psyker pays for the ability to cast it's powers. And if they can cast more than one a turn they pay for that ability too. Unless you have more than (Number of powers) psykers. Then you pay for the ability to cast more than one power a turn but only cast smite with most of them.

Someone already crunched the numbers earlier, they really don't pay for it that much.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Said armies should be "Turing complete" in a way, having tools to be all-comers.

That's not what Turing-complete means. At all. Doesn't even work as an analogy.

I used quotes for a reason. Unless you're arguing that GW should keep publishing incomplete rules for armies, in which case we're not seeing eye to eye on things. 7e gave us its share of gak armies that simply didn't work on their own without proper formations: Deathwatch, both Admech, and Harlequins, were all painfully one-dimensional additions, and the argument that "they're not real armies anyway" is a cop-out. Why make models with rules that render them unplayable except in the most casual of games? Of all the "new armies" that came out, only Genestealer Cults had an army with the tools to truly run "all comers", and that was the result of looting small bits of the Guard codex.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And the way they are designed makes them useless on most units. Anything that is in a transport can't make use of them. Units that wants to move fast can't use them either except for one per army (if you don't roll a 1) can't use them either because they will distance their imagifer. Seriously acts of faith are SO restricted that comparing them to psychic power is pretty damn shortsighted.

You also cannot Deny them, they don't blow up on you, and are far better for saving CP rerolls on compared to any other "free action" army non-Imperials get. And, they give extra actions, period. When was the last time Orks were rooting about Flash Gitz being awesome? Oh wait, they weren't, because building abilities that rely on triggering a 6 on a single d6 is shoddy and creates power roulette.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Love how this thread has dwindled down into - greyknights aren't a real army.

You know...every chapter has a mortal enemy. For Ultramarines it's tyrandis, crimson fists it orks, dark angels it's CSM, so GK having a daemon mortal enemy doesn't make them "not a real army".

Because Grey Knights don't have daemons as a "mortal enemy", they have daemons as their ONLY enemy. Tyranids could be chewing Terra alive and the Grey Knights wouldn't fight them because it's not their job.

And they're trained to fight where there is a Daemon insurrection and to get to that they might have to fight other enemies. One of several dozen justifications in the old codex, because one might ask why Daemonhunters might not always fight daemons. Another one was that the particular army might have a tainted artifact and they need to retrieve it and destroy it before it falls in the wrong hands.

If you really want to talk about fitting fluff, maybe you should've read it first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we at least agree the regular HQ units should have regular Smite?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Love how this thread has dwindled down into - greyknights aren't a real army.

You know...every chapter has a mortal enemy. For Ultramarines it's tyrandis, crimson fists it orks, dark angels it's CSM, so GK having a daemon mortal enemy doesn't make them "not a real army".

Because Grey Knights don't have daemons as a "mortal enemy", they have daemons as their ONLY enemy. Tyranids could be chewing Terra alive and the Grey Knights wouldn't fight them because it's not their job.

And they're trained to fight where there is a Daemon insurrection and to get to that they might have to fight other enemies. One of several dozen justifications in the old codex, because one might ask why Daemonhunters might not always fight daemons. Another one was that the particular army might have a tainted artifact and they need to retrieve it and destroy it before it falls in the wrong hands.

If you really want to talk about fitting fluff, maybe you should've read it first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we at least agree the regular HQ units should have regular Smite?

OK now... see, I could see myself agreeing to this, because it *does* make sense. I wouldn't necessarily say *all* HQ units, but I would say that the Grand Master and the Librarian should get the full version of smite. Basically, any model that can choose two psychic powers, should be powerful enough to use the full version of smite.

Actually, looking at the codex... the Librarian already gets the full version of smite! So it would just need to be the Grand Master that gets the change.

What I really wish they did was this. You can cast as many powers as you want but each psychic power had a power level. Say vortex is lvl 3 - so only libby and grand masters can use it. strike squads would be lvl 1 so they could only cast maybe hammer hand or purge soul. they could have used a system like that across the board. It has it's own intrinsic limit on how many times you can cast the big powers. Because at 2k points you can only fit so many grand masters and libby in your list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Love how this thread has dwindled down into - greyknights aren't a real army.

You know...every chapter has a mortal enemy. For Ultramarines it's tyrandis, crimson fists it orks, dark angels it's CSM, so GK having a daemon mortal enemy doesn't make them "not a real army".

Because Grey Knights don't have daemons as a "mortal enemy", they have daemons as their ONLY enemy. Tyranids could be chewing Terra alive and the Grey Knights wouldn't fight them because it's not their job.

And they're trained to fight where there is a Daemon insurrection and to get to that they might have to fight other enemies. One of several dozen justifications in the old codex, because one might ask why Daemonhunters might not always fight daemons. Another one was that the particular army might have a tainted artifact and they need to retrieve it and destroy it before it falls in the wrong hands.

If you really want to talk about fitting fluff, maybe you should've read it first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can we at least agree the regular HQ units should have regular Smite?

OK now... see, I could see myself agreeing to this, because it *does* make sense. I wouldn't necessarily say *all* HQ units, but I would say that the Grand Master and the Librarian should get the full version of smite. Basically, any model that can choose two psychic powers, should be powerful enough to use the full version of smite.

Actually, looking at the codex... the Librarian already gets the full version of smite! So it would just need to be the Grand Master that gets the change.

Libby has rights of banishment. it makes your smite baby smite.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
-Snip-
Can we at least agree the regular HQ units should have regular Smite?

OK now... see, I could see myself agreeing to this, because it *does* make sense. I wouldn't necessarily say *all* HQ units, but I would say that the Grand Master and the Librarian should get the full version of smite. Basically, any model that can choose two psychic powers, should be powerful enough to use the full version of smite.

Actually, looking at the codex... the Librarian already gets the full version of smite! So it would just need to be the Grand Master that gets the change.

Libby has rights of banishment. it makes your smite baby smite.

Ahh, I saw they got the Libby from the standard Space Marine codex, I just didn't read on to see that he gains the Rites of Banish ability in the process. I just assumed he was standard Libby with <GREY KNIGHTS> keyword as his chapter.

Ok so yeh, I'd agree that the Librarian should really have the full smite, and probably the Grand Master too. I doubt many people on here would disagree with that. I wouldn't even argue that as a house rule.

It does mean that you could make sure you cast your normal spells with lowly grey knights, so that your HQ's are always free to smite away. But I don't think this would be unbalanced tbh.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I used quotes for a reason.

Yeah that's what I'm talking about: even with the quotes it makes little to no sense. Unless you found a way to compute stuff with your armies?

 MagicJuggler wrote:
You also cannot Deny them, they don't blow up on you, and are far better for saving CP rerolls on compared to any other "free action" army non-Imperials get.

Given they don't work with most of the army there really isn't any necessity to do anything more with them to prevent spam though, is there?

150 conscripts getting to fire twice with no counter play or restriction - Yet I can't cast hammer hand twice with the same army for +1 to wound for a single squad. Which do you think does more damage?