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 Xenomancers wrote:
150 conscripts getting to fire twice with no counter play or restriction - Yet I can't cast hammer hand twice with the same army for +1 to wound for a single squad. Which do you think does more damage?

Once again, somehow the 150 conscripts are magically all in range anf LOS of a target. Reminds me of the time where you stated Magnus could be "easily one shotted" by a Shadowsword despite it actually only having a 30% chance of doing 2D6 out of his 18 wounds. I really want to play as this fantasy version of Guard you have in your head, I might actually start placing in tournaments.

you have a very flawed concept of the game. how hard is it to get a unit that cant be killed in range to fire at 24 inches? Oh yeah - its not.

you are right though - volcano cannon is terrible vs magnus...oh yeah it's not.

 Xenomancers wrote:
you have a very flawed concept of the game. how hard is it to get a unit that cant be killed in range to fire at 24 inches? Oh yeah - its not.

you are right though - volcano cannon is terrible vs magnus...oh yeah it's not.

Oh man, now my conscripts are unkillable too! And yes, getting ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY models all in 24" range and LOS without my opponent being an idiot is pretty god damned hard or do you play on a completely flat table?

How is a less than 1 in 3 chance of doing an average of 1/3rd of his wound pool GOOD? Yeah, maybe if I totally luck out and Magnus rolls garbage on his 3++ rerolling 1's save then it's good. Just played a game where I dumped a 60 shot lasgun barrage into him for an astounding 1 damage. By the end of the five round game I got him down to TWELVE. And he had actually hurt himself for one of those from perils. Lascannons just bounced right off of him, and mass lasgun/plasma fire just did chip wounds.

Not to mention the whole idea of pitting one of the considered most OP unit in the game vs something else.

The conscripts arguement always amused me.

I mean, unless you get to circle the enemy unit, I'm not even sure its physically possible to get so many of them in range, let alone doing it in an actual game.

Massive hordes sounds great on paper, until you actually try to put so many models on an actual table and see you are starting to have a rather large distance build up between the front and the back of the blob.
And that's assuming a flat table, once you introduce even a bit of terrain the entire plan goes to hell. and if you actually use a proper amount, you will find that it's nigh-impossible to actually use the blob properly.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:What GW *should* have done IMO was refine the 7e psyker system, so there were more WC per caster, but no "pooling." Rather than casting and denial being all-or-nothing success thresholds, casting would be by "Degrees of Success", and Denial would simply subtract successes from casting, rather than the 7e system of "you needed 5 sixes to deny but only rolled 4", or needing to roll higher than the caster to deny. "Try rolling a 13."

What I mean by degrees of success, is that powers themselves start off weak, but rolling extra successes (up to 4 total) would improve the overall effect, while Denial can reduce the overall strength rather than it being binary pass-fail.

Oh goody, instead of a 45 minute psychic phase where it's completely pointless for me to be even in the goddam building unless I have 14 psykers, it can now be a 2.5 hour psychic phase where I still don't have any real chance of making a significant impact on the game with less than a dozen psychic dice , but now I don't even get a bathroom break.

The 7th ed system was terrible, let it die.

The 7th ed system was terrible, let it die.

Indeed, the psychic phase in the 7th ed was out of hand. Now you can buff or debuff one unit here and there. That's enough for a game with 5 to 7 rounds. The psychic phase shouldnt win or loose you the game.

This is all such a stupid discussion. They even give you the option to not use the matched play rules. It's not their fault if 99.9% of people want to play a game with even the vaguest resemblance of balance.

The matched play rules are pretty much "What made 7th a massive pile of gak? Let's make it so you can't do that!"

No more Taudar superfriends? Done!
No more Eldar or Grey Knights doing idiotic things in the Psychic Phase? Done!
Daemons can't summon an additional 2000 points of models out of thin air for free, thus making the game 2000pts vs 4000pts? Done!
Armies that are entirely in reserve for the majority of the game, thus denying you turns to shoot their objective holding units, can no longer do so? FETHING DONE!

Play open. Pick and choose the rules from matched that make the game balanced/fun. House rule to flavor.

Just plain matched isn't even that great. You basically need advanced rules beyond it to make the game any kind of playable. Cities of death have a few good ones. Death from the skies allowing fliers to leave the table and come back. Without Advanced Terrain rule you might as well being playing on a flat table.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This is all such a stupid discussion. They even give you the option to not use the matched play rules. It's not their fault if 99.9% of people want to play a game with even the vaguest resemblance of balance.

The matched play rules are pretty much "What made 7th a massive pile of gak? Let's make it so you can't do that!"

No more Taudar superfriends? Done!
No more Eldar or Grey Knights doing idiotic things in the Psychic Phase? Done!
Daemons can't summon an additional 2000 points of models out of thin air for free, thus making the game 2000pts vs 4000pts? Done!
Armies that are entirely in reserve for the majority of the game, thus denying you turns to shoot their objective holding units, can no longer do so? FETHING DONE!

You... really don't know 7th do you?

 Lance845 wrote:
Play open. Pick and choose the rules from matched that make the game balanced/fun. House rule to flavor.

Just plain matched isn't even that great. You basically need advanced rules beyond it to make the game any kind of playable. Cities of death have a few good ones. Death from the skies allowing fliers to leave the table and come back. Without Advanced Terrain rule you might as well being playing on a flat table.

Might as well play a different game at that rate. Shame company-level gaming in general is dying in lieu of skirmish-scale gaming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This is all such a stupid discussion. They even give you the option to not use the matched play rules. It's not their fault if 99.9% of people want to play a game with even the vaguest resemblance of balance.

The matched play rules are pretty much "What made 7th a massive pile of gak? Let's make it so you can't do that!"

No more Taudar superfriends? Done!
No more Eldar or Grey Knights doing idiotic things in the Psychic Phase? Done!
Daemons can't summon an additional 2000 points of models out of thin air for free, thus making the game 2000pts vs 4000pts? Done!
Armies that are entirely in reserve for the majority of the game, thus denying you turns to shoot their objective holding units, can no longer do so? FETHING DONE!

You... really don't know 7th do you?

The hyperbole is real in this thread. Especially since most Eldar armies in tournaments didn't even bother with Psykers.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This is all such a stupid discussion. They even give you the option to not use the matched play rules. It's not their fault if 99.9% of people want to play a game with even the vaguest resemblance of balance.

The matched play rules are pretty much "What made 7th a massive pile of gak? Let's make it so you can't do that!"

No more Taudar superfriends? Done!
No more Eldar or Grey Knights doing idiotic things in the Psychic Phase? Done!
Daemons can't summon an additional 2000 points of models out of thin air for free, thus making the game 2000pts vs 4000pts? Done!
Armies that are entirely in reserve for the majority of the game, thus denying you turns to shoot their objective holding units, can no longer do so? FETHING DONE!

Also you still have yet to respond to me about Grey Knights fighting other forces. Just saying.

 wuestenfux wrote:

The 7th ed system was terrible, let it die.

Indeed, the psychic phase in the 7th ed was out of hand. Now you can buff or debuff one unit here and there. That's enough for a game with 5 to 7 rounds. The psychic phase shouldnt win or loose you the game.

The shooting phase shouldn't win or lose you the game.

The fight phase shouldn't win or lose you the game.

Kinda stupid if you apply it elsewhere. Not all armies get each phase equally. And that's ok.

The psychic phase is just as much of a phase as the shooting and fight. No reason an army whose main unique flavor is "they're all psykers" shouldn't be able to do a lot of it's "winning" during the psychic phase. Instead of relegating it into obscurity. Especially when the fluff clearly portrays psykers as things which can potentially annihilate whole planets.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

The 7th ed system was terrible, let it die.

Indeed, the psychic phase in the 7th ed was out of hand. Now you can buff or debuff one unit here and there. That's enough for a game with 5 to 7 rounds. The psychic phase shouldnt win or loose you the game.

The shooting phase shouldn't win or lose you the game.

The fight phase shouldn't win or lose you the game.

Kinda stupid if you apply it elsewhere. Not all armies get each phase equally. And that's ok.

The psychic phase is just as much of a phase as the shooting and fight. No reason an army whose main unique flavor is "they're all psykers" shouldn't be able to do a lot of it's "winning" during the psychic phase. Instead of relegating it into obscurity. Especially when the fluff clearly portrays psykers as things which can potentially annihilate whole planets.

So long as the army that wins in the psychic phase sacrifices as much shooting and fighting to not win in those phases.

Khorne Zerkers give up a lot to win the fight phase.

I am not convinced that an army with a storm bolter and force weapon on every single model will lose the other phases badly enough to make them justified in winning the psychic phase.

We practically give up the shooting phase with nothing >24'' except on expensive vehicles.

We aren't great in shooting, and our melee is good but not the best. Seems fair that we could be the best psykers. Especially since our dudes are hideously expensive.

 Grey Templar wrote:
We practically give up the shooting phase with nothing >24'' except on expensive vehicles.

We aren't great in shooting, and our melee is good but not the best. Seems fair that we could be the best psykers. Especially since our dudes are hideously expensive.

Compared to what Berserkers give up to win the fight phase, being "not great" in shooting and "not the best" in melee simply isn't bad enough.

Units exist that focus on one phase instead of any others. The Malefic Lord has "bare fists" as his close combat weapon and no shooting weapon. That is a unit that focuses to win one phase and one phase only.

Grey Knights absolutely do not focus on the psychic phase the way Khorne Berzerkers focus on the fight phase. They have no business "winning" the Psychic Phase.

My gaming group house ruled the whole psychic thing, every parker can cast without Psychic Focus, but the same unit cannot be affected by the same spell twice. Every game with my Thousand sons has been very close so far(around 50% win).

Just an idea, I know it doesn't matter for tourney play. But has anyone considered the possibility that TS might ignore this when the codex comes out, or get a different version?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
We practically give up the shooting phase with nothing >24'' except on expensive vehicles.

We aren't great in shooting, and our melee is good but not the best. Seems fair that we could be the best psykers. Especially since our dudes are hideously expensive.

Compared to what Berserkers give up to win the fight phase, being "not great" in shooting and "not the best" in melee simply isn't bad enough.

Units exist that focus on one phase instead of any others. The Malefic Lord has "bare fists" as his close combat weapon and no shooting weapon. That is a unit that focuses to win one phase and one phase only.

Grey Knights absolutely do not focus on the psychic phase the way Khorne Berzerkers focus on the fight phase. They have no business "winning" the Psychic Phase.

Having fought and krumped GK quite a fair bit, I'll throw in my 2 cents. Realistically, back in 7th edition, Grey Knights were not exactly that good. Yes, they could throw down more Warp Charge than most armies, but they didn't have the powers to use it on. Force, Hammerhand and that's it. The cost to use such powers generally outpaced the investment in extra Psykers too.

For anti-tank they got Psycannons. Now, they were good in 5th. 7th made them Salvo weapons. They were costly, and required forfeiting your Nemesis Weapon if you weren't a Terminator. Consider that for the same cost as a single Strike Squad, you got a Tacsquad with Grav Cannon, and said squad probably got a turn of rerolling hits due to Tactical Doctrine. Pretty much every other weapon in the GK arsenal lacked a range of > 24, and other than the Interceptors and Dreadknights, the entire army moves at infantry speed.

In many ways, the real advantage the GK had over other armies was being resilient to Witchfires and Maledictions. Alas, the 7e Psy system made it disproportionately difficult to deny Blessings or Summons, and a Culexus could assist in the first. As far as units capable of using their excess Warp Charge, it was either Librarians or Purifiers, and points were generally so tight that adding in allied Psykers wasn't exactly economical.

If you saw GK in tournaments, it was to add Draigo to a Gravcent unit since he was a guaranteed Gate vector for them This was before the Gladius of course. There arguably wasn't any unit in the GK army worth using Gate for in the first place.

The army as a whole became Terminators & Dreadknights, Final Destination, and Purifiers were an excellent unit without a purpose.

I don't know if you are talking to me or someone else but if you are talking to me, conscripts can't make acts of faith…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I don't know if you are talking to me or someone else but if you are talking to me, conscripts can't make acts of faith…

Ah, but they can! Just like they can freely march across the board, are immune to enemies attacks and never have any terrain blocking their fire and are always within short range and always have FRFSRF applied to them.

This thread is so funny.

The thing that hurts us the most in this edition is boots on the ground. We're a deep strike army only a few vehicles eligible to take weapons with a range >24". Yet we can't actually deep strike because boots on the ground. Interceptors are not an answer. In my competitive list i'll deep strike maybe 1 unit. If you really want to buff Grey Knights give us some way to get higher than 50% in reserve / off the table - provided the units are performing an actual deep strike. We don't need Grey Knights being a vehicle to exploit ravenspam.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:
Smite should be: 1 wound, on a 10+ it's D3. It's always 3 against Daemons regardless of roll.

RogueApiary wrote:
Yeah, maybe if I totally luck out and Magnus rolls garbage on his 3++ rerolling 1's save then it's good.

With a CP saved for those occasional 2s. Shooting a single big gun at Magnus while CP is around is a fools errand.

Then you get to giggle as they watch Magnus use 2 out of 3 spells to smite.

 Marmatag wrote:
This thread is so funny.

The thing that hurts us the most in this edition is boots on the ground. We're a deep strike army only a few vehicles eligible to take weapons with a range >24". Yet we can't actually deep strike because boots on the ground. Interceptors are not an answer. In my competitive list i'll deep strike maybe 1 unit. If you really want to buff Grey Knights give us some way to get higher than 50% in reserve / off the table - provided the units are performing an actual deep strike. We don't need Grey Knights being a vehicle to exploit ravenspam.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:
Smite should be: 1 wound, on a 10+ it's D3. It's always 3 against Daemons regardless of roll.

Why aren't interceptors an answer? I'd rather they just be strike squads but since we can only cast 1 spell of each a turn. I can only gate in 1 additional strike squad. The way i play greyknights is to get as many units as close as possible turn1. Intercepts help me move that number closer to 100% - storm ravens help too. The opponent having to deploy a huge amount of his army before I even place a model is a big benefit to. Best part is on a typical board the only thing that can go wrong for me is losing a storm raven - every game so far lives even If I don't go first. 3-4 las cannons is the most that an army can get on it usually. 2 strikes can hop into the raven - 1 can gate and 3 interceptors shunt. This gives the raven a nice punch turn 2 when 10 strikes basically auto-charge anything I chose.

It's been really brutal - I've actually be asked to tone it down with my friends so far. They are playing with indexes mind you.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This thread is so funny.

The thing that hurts us the most in this edition is boots on the ground. We're a deep strike army only a few vehicles eligible to take weapons with a range >24". Yet we can't actually deep strike because boots on the ground. Interceptors are not an answer. In my competitive list i'll deep strike maybe 1 unit. If you really want to buff Grey Knights give us some way to get higher than 50% in reserve / off the table - provided the units are performing an actual deep strike. We don't need Grey Knights being a vehicle to exploit ravenspam.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:
Smite should be: 1 wound, on a 10+ it's D3. It's always 3 against Daemons regardless of roll.

Why aren't interceptors an answer? I'd rather they just be strike squads but since we can only cast 1 spell of each a turn. I can only gate in 1 additional strike squad. The way i play greyknights is to get as many units as close as possible turn1. Intercepts help me move that number closer to 100% - storm ravens help too. The opponent having to deploy a huge amount of his army before I even place a model is a big benefit to. Best part is on a typical board the only thing that can go wrong for me is losing a storm raven - every game so far lives even If I don't go first. 3-4 las cannons is the most that an army can get on it usually. 2 strikes can hop into the raven - 1 can gate and 3 interceptors shunt. This gives the raven a nice punch turn 2 when 10 strikes basically auto-charge anything I chose.

It's been really brutal - I've actually be asked to tone it down with my friends so far. They are playing with indexes mind you.

2 storm ravens and 2 units of interceptors is almost 900 points, or almost half your list. If you're using a GMNDK, you're looking at roughly 1150 points right there for 2 ravens, 2 interceptors, and a GMNDK. And you haven't met force org requirements yet to get even 1 command point.

We can talk in the GK tactica thread and share lists if you want. If you give up on a battalion and are comfortable running with only 4 command points then interceptors are fine.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
My gaming group house ruled the whole psychic thing, every parker can cast without Psychic Focus, but the same unit cannot be affected by the same spell twice. Every game with my Thousand sons has been very close so far(around 50% win).

Just an idea, I know it doesn't matter for tourney play. But has anyone considered the possibility that TS might ignore this when the codex comes out, or get a different version?

I hope they don't because if they dont the only other option is to give them a gak ton of spells. Like 15 spells 5 tables of 3 maybe?

 Xenomancers wrote:
150 conscripts getting to fire twice with no counter play or restriction - Yet I can't cast hammer hand twice with the same army for +1 to wound for a single squad. Which do you think does more damage?

Also consider: An entire army of Supreme Command Detachments with Daemon Princes casting warptime on themselves.

Psychic Focus exists for a reason.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
150 conscripts getting to fire twice with no counter play or restriction - Yet I can't cast hammer hand twice with the same army for +1 to wound for a single squad. Which do you think does more damage?

Also consider: An entire army of Supreme Command Detachments with Daemon Princes casting warptime on themselves.

Psychic Focus exists for a reason.

Yeah remember Psychic focus isnt there to screw GKs over it s there to screw every army over.

I will say this again. GKs have one of the best Psychic buffs they get +1 to ALL casts if you changed thier smite to do D3 mortal wounds on 10+ they would put out 5 mortal wound per 4 squads. 16 squads would dish out 20 mortal wounds and be beasts in CC and have decent mid range shooting. As a comparison my actual army of Psykers only puts out 3.75 mortal wounds per turn with 4 squads compared to your 3.95 mortal wounds per turn. That is the difference a +1 makes with psychic powers.

So 16 Strike Squads would cost you roughly 1700 points.

Comparatively, 16 Primaris Psykers would cost you 640, and they know real smite.

If the problem is cheap smite logically a 40 point unit should not know 18" full smite.

I understand the logic behind nerfed smite. I do feel that for the cost of our units, we should get a better smite. It doesn't need to be fully powerful smite. But the minimum cost of our troop squad is 105 points. We inherently lose out on things other factions can get, for instance, it is not really possible to run a Grey Knights brigade.

Remember, we only get the +1 if we have a detachment that is Grey Knights. So it's not free.

 Marmatag wrote:
So 16 Strike Squads would cost you roughly 1700 points.

Comparatively, 16 Primaris Psykers would cost you 640, and they know real smite.

That's a false equivalence and you know it.

Yea, said primaris psykers die to a stiff breeze, and can't do much other than smite.

The 16 strike squads bring forth 80 sets of stormbolters and force weapons, while wearing actual armor.

SLIGHT difference in value.


If all GK had is psyker power, giving them real smite might be proper, but its far from it.
They have decent shooting, decent durablity and very good melee abilities.
Not even counting the super hard counter they present to deamons.