Ossefactor

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**vipoid**

The Dark Eldar Ossefactor has this rule:

"If a model is slain by this weapon, the model's unit immediately suffers a mortal wound on a D6 roll of 4+."

If the resulting Mortal Wound kills a model, will it cause an additional Mortal Wound on a 4+?

**BaconCatBug**

vipoid wrote:
The Dark Eldar Ossefactor has this rule:

"If a model is slain by this weapon, the model's unit immediately suffers a mortal wound on a D6 roll of 4+."

If the resulting Mortal Wound kills a model, will it cause an additional Mortal Wound on a 4+?

No, because the mortal wounds are being caused by an additional special rule of the weapon, not by the damage (as in the specific rules term damage of the stuff that happens after a save is failed) caused by the weapon itself.

**vipoid**

BaconCatBug wrote:
vipoid wrote:
The Dark Eldar Ossefactor has this rule:

"If a model is slain by this weapon, the model's unit immediately suffers a mortal wound on a D6 roll of 4+."

If the resulting Mortal Wound kills a model, will it cause an additional Mortal Wound on a 4+?
No, because the mortal wounds are being caused by an additional special rule of the weapon, not by the damage (as in the specific rules term damage of the stuff that happens after a save is failed) caused by the weapon itself.

I don't follow.

Surely they're still being slain by the weapon, regardless of whether it's by the initial damage or by a special rule possessed by that weapon?

**BaconCatBug**

vipoid wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
vipoid wrote:
The Dark Eldar Ossefactor has this rule:

"If a model is slain by this weapon, the model's unit immediately suffers a mortal wound on a D6 roll of 4+."

If the resulting Mortal Wound kills a model, will it cause an additional Mortal Wound on a 4+?
No, because the mortal wounds are being caused by an additional special rule of the weapon, not by the damage (as in the specific rules term damage of the stuff that happens after a save is failed) caused by the weapon itself.

I don't follow.

Surely they're still being slain by the weapon, regardless of whether it's by the initial damage or by a special rule possessed by that weapon?

No. Weapons only cause damage via the rules for shooting/combat which causes wounds which can slay models. Extra stuff on top isn't the weapon doing the slaying.

**vipoid**

BaconCatBug wrote:
No. Weapons only cause damage via the rules for shooting/combat which causes wounds which can slay models. Extra stuff on top isn't the weapon doing the slaying.

Do you have any sort of rulebook quote or such to back that up?

**BaconCatBug**

vipoid wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
No. Weapons only cause damage via the rules for shooting/combat which causes wounds which can slay models. Extra stuff on top isn't the weapon doing the slaying.

Do you have any sort of rulebook quote or such to back that up?

Do you have one to back yours up?

All we have to go on is common sense, the English Language and the rulebook definition of damage:

Inflict Damage: The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon used in the attack. A model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers. If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play. If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect.

To me this indicates that if the weapon itself lowers the wounds to 0, it's slain. Only then does the special rule trigger and cause a mortal wound. It's not the weapons damage doing the slaying.

**vipoid**

BaconCatBug wrote:

Do you have any sort of rulebook quote or such to back that up?

Do you have one to back yours up?

**BaconCatBug**

vipoid wrote:
But that rule is on the weapon. If the weapon is not slaying the model then what is?

A special rule? I don't see why that's so hard to understand. The special rule of the weapon causes additional mortal wounds, it's not the weapon as defined by the shooting rules doing the wounds.

Furthermore, you are the one making the claim that a special rule somehow is magically causing the weapon to slay more models despite having zero evidence and ignoring proof to the contrary. It's clear you have made your mind up and are not arguing in good faith. I will leave it to others to debate you.

**vipoid**

BaconCatBug wrote:
A special rule? I don't see why that's so hard to understand.

Because you are making arbitrary distinctions without anything to back them up.

Yes, it is a special rule. but it is a special rule of the weapon. How is that hard to understand?

BaconCatBug wrote:
The special rule of the weapon causes additional mortal wounds, it's not the weapon as defined by the shooting rules doing the wounds.

Again, you are adding rules where none exist.

The Ossefactor's rule does not specify that the models must be slain via shooting. Only that they must be slain by that weapon.

BaconCatBug wrote:

Furthermore, you are the one making the claim that a special rule somehow is magically causing the weapon to slay more models despite having zero evidence

Yes, I am making that claim. My evidence is that the weapon's rule is slaying the models ergo they are being slain by that weapon.

BaconCatBug wrote:
and ignoring proof to the contrary.

I haven't ignored it - you just never provided any in the first place.

BaconCatBug wrote:
It's clear you have made your mind up and are not arguing in good faith.

On the contrary, I am happy to accept I am wrong in this.

However, *you* are the one who has gone into this with a closed mind. You have done nothing but create distinctions where none exist (and have failed to provide a shred of proof to justify them), and fabricated rules because the existing ones contradict how you clearly think it should be played.

You claim that I have not been debating in good faith, yet all I have done is ask for some proof that the distinctions you claim exist actually do exist within the rules. The fact that asking you for proof would get you riled in this manner would seem to indicate that you are the one not debating in good faith.

BaconCatBug wrote:
I will leave it to others to debate you.

Suits me.

**Jimsolo**

Absent an FAQ, of course it can cause additional wounds.

A model that is killed by the special rule of a weapon was still killed by that weapon.

**usernamesareannoying**

fwiw i agree with cat.
do you really believe that this ability should have the chance to wipe out entire squads as long as you keep rolling a 4+?

as an aside... its kind of poor form to ask a question and then argue its answer because you don't like the result.

**vipoid**

usernamesareannoying wrote:
fwiw i agree with cat.
do you really believe that this ability should have the chance to wipe out entire squads as long as you keep rolling a 4+?

Given that it is available on a single squad, basically comprises the entire shooting of that squad, is all but worthless useless against vehicles and doesn't work against multi-wound models I certainly don't see it as being overpowered. Indeed, this would seem to be the only means by which this weapon would actually be worth a damn.

usernamesareannoying wrote:
as an aside... its kind of poor form to ask a question and then argue its answer because you don't like the result.

I would have thought it was also poor form to sanctimoniously declare yourself right without providing a shred of evidence in your favour other than 'I don't think it should work this way and I must be right'.

What's more, to my mind at least, asking the question does not mean I have to forgo all logic or reason. If an answer makes no sense or appears to be based on faulty (or nonexistent) logic, then it seems perfectly reasonable to question that answer or ask that more solid proof be provided for it.

**Overheal**

"One blast from the weapon sees the victim undergo uncontrollable bone growth, with their skeleton suddenly sprouting spurs and spears that slay them instantly – and may even impale their brothers-in-arms"

So I'm to believe the entire unit is killed by one dude sprouting bone spurs?

**vipoid**

Overheal wrote:
"One blast from the weapon sees the victim undergo uncontrollable bone growth, with their skeleton suddenly sprouting spurs and spears that slay them instantly – and may even impale their brothers-in-arms"

So I'm to believe the entire unit is killed by one dude sprouting bone spurs?

Don't start a verisimilitude-war that you can't finish, sir!

**Overheal**

Alright,

"If a model’s wounds
are reduced to 0, it is either slain
or destroyed and removed from
play."

The additional model, as I read it, would be destroyed by the mortal wounds rolled over to it from the original model slain, and is not considered slain itself for the purpose of re-applying the effect.

Worth an FAQ though for sure as one could also interpret that as referring to Plasma or Ion weapons overheating.

HYWPI this can only ever kill 2 models per attack.

**JohnnyHell**

BaconCatBug is correct... the literal wording of the rules tells you how it works, without need for additional rules:

"If a model is slain by this weapon" = Trigger for rule to come into effect

"...the model's unit immediately suffers a Mortal Wound on a D6 roll of 4+."

= the effect that triggers. 'The unit suffers a Mortal Wound' =/= 'suffers another wound from the weapon' so it can't retrigger from the additional effect.

**vipoid**

Overheal wrote:
Alright,

"If a model’s wounds
are reduced to 0, it is either slain
or destroyed and removed from
play."

The additional model, as I read it, would be destroyed by the mortal wounds rolled over to it from the original model slain, and is not considered slain itself for the purpose of re-applying the effect.

Sorry, I'm confused. How is the second dead model not considered slain?

Overheal wrote:
Worth an FAQ though for sure as one could also interpret that as referring to Plasma or Ion weapons overheating.

Yeah, an faq would be useful.

**Tristanleo**

vipoid wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
vipoid wrote:
The Dark Eldar Ossefactor has this rule:

"If a model is slain by this weapon, the model's unit immediately suffers a mortal wound on a D6 roll of 4+."

If the resulting Mortal Wound kills a model, will it cause an additional Mortal Wound on a 4+?
No, because the mortal wounds are being caused by an additional special rule of the weapon, not by the damage (as in the specific rules term damage of the stuff that happens after a save is failed) caused by the weapon itself.

I don't follow.

Surely they're still being slain by the weapon, regardless of whether it's by the initial damage or by a special rule possessed by that weapon?

To resolve this (In some way), let's go through how you would check step by step.

Did you slay a model with this weapon?

If yes, then you get a roll of a 4+ to inflict a mortal wound on the models unit.

There is no additional step that means you check again if a model is slain. I would interpret however that this does not mean it only proc's once. going by the definition of "fast dice" in the rulebook and that in an ideal world where time is more forgiving, each attack would be rolled to completion before moving on to the next that would include the additional effect of this weapon.

Furthermore, if you go by the fluff. it's the blade causing the bones to rapidly ossify with explosive effect that causes the additional damage. Those damaged in this way do not begin to ossify themselves, they are merely victims of the throes of their ossifying comrade.

**vipoid**

Tristanleo wrote:

To resolve this (In some way), let's go through how you would check step by step.

Did you slay a model with this weapon?

If yes, then you get a roll of a 4+ to inflict a mortal wound on the models unit.

There is no additional step that means you check again if a model is slain.

But surely there is also nothing preventing it from triggering again?

**Overheal**

Well if it "happens immediately" that implies it only procs once at the same time the damage is resolved normally. So in almost surely never procs again, else you could potentially table an entire 50x conscript unit with one swing.

**vipoid**

Overheal wrote:
Well if it "happens immediately" that implies it only procs once at the same time the damage is resolved normally. So in almost surely never procs again, else you could potentially table an entire 50x conscript unit with one swing.

Do you see this as being different to abilities like Death to the False Emperor then?

I ask because that allows models with that can immediately make an additional attack if they roll a 6 to-hit. However, it also has to put in a qualifier that these attacks cannot generate additional attacks.

I appreciate that it's not an exact comparison, but would this not indicate that (unless stated otherwise) 'immediate' effects can still be triggered multiple times?

**Overheal**

Hmm

"FAQ it." Lol

That rule could be worded that way because it's triggering the player to start another shooting attack entirely. So in that case it would have to stipulate a one-proc-only clause.

I'm thinking "immediately" was meant to cover it.

**TheBaconPope**

I'm sorry, but if we really go of the preposition that being killed as a result of an ability does not count as being slain by the weapon, it's impossible for the Ossefactor to trigger at all!

Note that the Abilities section of the Ossefactor already states that it wounds Infantry of a 2+. If the above interpretations were correct, no model would ever count as being slain because it doesn't have a strength value at all, and relies on its ability!

Now I'm not overly professing the intelligence of the DE index designers, but I find it hard to believe they'd write an ability that could not be triggered under any circumstances.

**JohnnyHell**

TheBaconPope wrote:
I'm sorry, but if we really go of the preposition that being killed as a result of an ability does not count as being slain by the weapon, it's impossible for the Ossefactor to trigger at all!

Note that the Abilities section of the Ossefactor already states that it wounds Infantry of a 2+. If the above interpretations were correct, no model would ever count as being slain because it doesn't have a strength value at all, and relies on its ability!

Now I'm not overly professing the intelligence of the DE index designers, but I find it hard to believe they'd write an ability that could not be triggered under any circumstances.

I disagree. Wounding on a 2+ still means the weapon is wounding you, and could slay you. Some weapon effects affect the base mechanics, the one in the OP doesn't. This seems a bit of a straw man position to take.

**vipoid**

JohnnyHell wrote:
I disagree. Wounding on a 2+ still means the weapon is wounding you, and could slay you. Some weapon effects affect the base mechanics, the one in the OP doesn't. This seems a bit of a straw man position to take.

I believe TheBaconPope's main assertion is still correct though - in that it seems rather strange to say that models killed by a weapon's special rules (which are nothing more than the mechanical properties of that weapon), somehow don't count as being killed by said weapon.

To use a different example, if a model is killed via the mortal wound from a sniper rifle's special rule, would you not count the sniper rifle as having killed them?

I mean, I suppose we could get philosophical and say that the sniper rifle didn't kill anyone - it was the model who pulled the trigger.

Incidentally, someone mentioned earlier that an Ossefactor could potentially wipe out a n entire 50-man Conscript squad. While this is technically true, the probability of it happening is 0.00000000000000049. To put that in context, the probability of you winning the lottery is about 0.000000000099 (about 200,000 times more likely).

(Not a rules argument, just food for thought.)

**JohnnyHell**

It seems far stranger to assume that the rule is written to allow you to keep rolling 50/50 rolls to cause Mortal Wounds until you fail (vs 1W models unit obvs).

Given this is the Common Sense Edition (tm) i find it hard to believe that's its intent.

**JNAProductions**

I mean, not really? Let's assume you kill one guy with the regular attack.

Then, you have a 50% chance of killing another guy.
25% chance of two more.
12.5% chance of three.
6.25% chance of four.
And it just keeps getting smaller.

I believe, with my limited math knowledge, that averages out to one extra death. Hardly OP.

**MageStorm**

Shrieker Ammunition kills even more Guys...

**Tristanleo**

vipoid wrote:
Overheal wrote:
Well if it "happens immediately" that implies it only procs once at the same time the damage is resolved normally. So in almost surely never procs again, else you could potentially table an entire 50x conscript unit with one swing.

Do you see this as being different to abilities like Death to the False Emperor then?

I ask because that allows models with that can immediately make an additional attack if they roll a 6 to-hit. However, it also has to put in a qualifier that these attacks cannot generate additional attacks.

I appreciate that it's not an exact comparison, but would this not indicate that (unless stated otherwise) 'immediate' effects can still be triggered multiple times?

Yes I do. The way it works speaks for itself. An attack rolling a 6 triggers another attack and potentially roll another 6, fulfilling it's own requirement.

The ossifier has no stipulation of this. If a model is slain by this weapon, so you can only trigger it up to tnlhe number of times it fires as anyone killed by its effect isn't killed by the weapon, it's killed by the effect of the weapon of another. So not the ossifier itself, but the ossifier bone of the victim. There's no need to Faq it because you cam only trigger with as many attacks that actually kill once each.

**p5freak**

How do you know what models unit suffers that mortal wound ?

"If a model is slain by this weapon, the model's unit immediately suffers a mortal wound on a D6 roll of 4+."

It doesnt say that the unit with the slain model suffers that mortal wound. It could be the models unit who is attacking with the ossefactor. Dark eldar like to hurt themselves.