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 Arkaine wrote:
Which thankfully isn't what's being done here. Breaking down the rule is another way of saying something like parse the verb or comprehend the meaning of the sentence.

GW's own words concerning this ability are:

"Q: Can a Noise Marine that is slain use his Music of the
Apocalypse ability to shoot any viable target, or does it have to
target the unit that killed him?
A: It can shoot at any viable target."

Keywords: VIABLE TARGET! A rule that grants you permission to shoot while within 1" of an enemy does not grant you permission to shoot -at- an enemy within 1". Models cannot target those except with a pistol.

Actually the rule for Grenades is being broken up here in this thread. Saying that you can use a Grenade in the place of another Shooting Weapon in a situation where only that Shooting Weapon is allowed to fire is doing exactly that. It is completely ignoring all other rules in favor of what a person is wanting to do with it.

You can't use granades in CC.

You can use them instead, when you shooting. Sure, but they still need to be able to do so in general rules.

If we go that way, that if something is able to shoot you can throw granade instead, then i can use them at range 48' if i have weapon able to shoot at that range. And that is not true, cuz granade still need be able to shoot following general rules and they have there own range that need to match distance.

They can be used instead of shooting AND they still need to follow general rules (they are not able to be used only cuz you are can shoot with something else) and they cant be thrown at 1' cuz they are not a pistol weapon.

TL;DR: To use granades you need to obey all general rules about shooting AND rule of granade (shooting with other weapon). Not only rule of granade, like some people trying to do. Its additional rule, not rule that replace rest rules.

Reggi wrote:
You can't use granades in CC.

You can use them instead, when you shooting. Sure, but they still need to be able to do so in general rules.

If we go that way, that if something is able to shoot you can throw granade instead, then i can use them at range 48' if i have weapon able to shoot at that range. And that is not true, cuz granade still need be able to shoot following general rules and they have there own range that need to match distance.

They can be used instead of shooting AND they still need to follow general rules (they are not able to be used only cuz you are can shoot with something else) and they cant be thrown at 1' cuz they are not a pistol weapon.

TL;DR: To use granades you need to obey all general rules about shooting AND rule of granade. Not only rule of granade, like some people trying to do. Its additional rule, not rule that replace rest rules.

^What this man said. Following the logic of the people in this thread I might as well use my grenades as rapid-fire weapons, because we can right ?

Common sense has left this thread a long time ago, I can't believe it's 4 pages long.

According to the logic in this thread, grenades auto-hit if you have a flamer, and characters don't have to be in range in order to shoot them.

I think it's safe to say that this logical process is flawed and incorrect.

All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

 puma713 wrote:
All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

Reggi wrote:


If we go that way, that if something is able to shoot you can throw granade instead, then i can use them at range 48' if i have weapon able to shoot at that range. And that is not true, cuz granade still need be able to shoot following general rules and they have there own range that need to match distance.

So, if you have a devastator squad with 4 lascannons and a sergeant with a bolter, the unit can't fire because the bolter isn't 48" range? No, that is incorrect. You can't throw a grenade from 48" because it doesn't have that much range. Again, everyone is overcomplicating this by thinking too much about what is firing, when it doesn't matter what is firing, only that it is firing.

 puma713 wrote:

Reggi wrote:


If we go that way, that if something is able to shoot you can throw granade instead, then i can use them at range 48' if i have weapon able to shoot at that range. And that is not true, cuz granade still need be able to shoot following general rules and they have there own range that need to match distance.

So, if you have a devastator squad with 4 lascannons and a sergeant with a bolter, the unit can't fire because the bolter isn't 48" range? No, that is incorrect. You can't throw a grenade from 48" because it doesn't have that much range. Again, everyone is overcomplicating this by thinking too much about what is firing, when it doesn't matter what is firing, only that it is firing.

But like I said, By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

Except that's not what the rule says. The rule says that if they're the closest visible enemy unit, they can be chosen as a target for a shooting attack. Then, the rules for shooting attacks would then follow.

The Grenade rule only says "Each time a unit is shooting..."

That is the only qualifier for grenades.

 puma713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 puma713 wrote:
All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

Except that's not what the rule says. The rule says that if they're the closest visible enemy unit, they can be chosen as a target for a shooting attack. Then, the rules for shooting attacks would then follow.

The Grenade rule only says "Each time a unit is shooting..."

That is the only qualifier for grenades.

That isn't what the character rule says at all. Please re-read it.

p180 in the BRB, first paragraph

There are five types of ranged weapon: Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire, Grenade and Pistol

p180 in the BRB, PISTOL section, 3rd para

Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons.

From the first quote, Grenade is a weapon type.

The second quote says you cannot use another weapon type and a Pistol in the same shooting action.

Therefore you cannot swap your Pistol for a Grenade.

 puma713 wrote:
Except that's not what the rule says. The rule says that if they're the closest visible enemy unit, they can be chosen as a target for a shooting attack. Then, the rules for shooting attacks would then follow.

The Grenade rule only says "Each time a unit is shooting..."

That is the only qualifier for grenades.

That is not the only qualifier for Grenades. Grenades still need to follow all other basic rules for Shooting. You still need to be in Range. You still need to have line of sight. Among those qualifiers that applies to all Ranged Weapons is not being within 1" of an enemy unit. Pistols have a rule to get out of this qualifier and Grenades do not.

One rule that talks about general availability does nothing to address this restriction on being engaged.

BaconCatBug wrote:That isn't what the character rule says at all. Please re-read it.

What's your point? Again, you're trying to assert arguments that have no bearing on the Grenade rule. But, to humor you, the rule says, verbatim: "A character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting." So what? So, let's take it out of context, what are we left with? A character can only be targeted if it is the closest visible enemy unit. So, I target it. Then what do I do? What rules do I follow to determine what to do with my "targeted" state? The rest of the shooting rules, obviously, which cover range, weapon types, etc. Without the rest of the shooting rules, the character clause means nothing.

Conversely, the Grenades rule has assumed that you've met all qualifications for shooting - otherwise you wouldn't be able to throw a grenade. That is what the "Each time a unit shoots..." clause is doing - it assumes the unit is in a "shooting" state and says, if that is true, then you may throw a grenade.

So, when a unit is shooting pistols, they're not shooting? Is that what you're saying?

MadSpy wrote:

The second quote says you cannot use another weapon type and a Pistol in the same shooting action.

Therefore you cannot swap your Pistol for a Grenade.

You are not using another weapon type AND a pistol. You're using just a grenade. Remember, the grenade rule only cares that the UNIT is shooting. It does not care what a MODEL is doing. So, if a UNIT is shooting pistols, then one MODEL may exchange a grenade for ANY OTHER WEAPON (including, but not limited to, pistols).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:


One rule that talks about general availability does nothing to address this restriction on being engaged.

This is where we disagree. I believe the grenade rule is written in such a way that gives you permission to throw a grenade, no matter the circumstances, as long as your unit is shooting. "Each time a unit shoots..." gives you explicit permission and assumes that the rules for shooting have already been qualified. If the rules for shooting have not already been qualified (LOS and range), then you have no permission to throw grenades in the first place. LOS and range do not get qualified when the unit shoots, they get qualified before the unit has shot.




However, I am going to bow out of the conversation now, because I am arguing the RAW and not the RAI. As far as the RAI goes, I agree that they are not intended to be used in CC. And arguing RAW without the RAI behind it is pointless.

 puma713 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:


One rule that talks about general availability does nothing to address this restriction on being engaged.

This is where we disagree. I believe the grenade rule is written in such a way that gives you permission to throw a grenade, no matter the circumstances, as long as your unit is shooting. "Each time a unit shoots..." gives you explicit permission and assumes that the rules for shooting have already been qualified. If the rules for shooting have not already been qualified (LOS and range), then you have no permission to throw grenades in the first place. LOS and range do not get qualified when the unit shoots, they get qualified before the unit has shot.

However, I am going to bow out of the conversation now, because I am arguing the RAW and not the RAI. As far as the RAI goes, I agree that they are not intended to be used in CC. And arguing RAW without the RAI behind it is pointless.

You can disagree all you want, but it still does not specifically address this restriction like the Pistol rule does. As has been pointed out, going by this standard would allow a model to ignore Line of Sight or Range. A Weapon Type does not get to use another Weapon Type's rules unless it specifically states it. Without the specific permission, you are NOT operating on RAW as there is nothing Written to override this basic restriction.

MadSpy wrote:
p180 in the BRB, first paragraph

There are five types of ranged weapon: Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire, Grenade and Pistol

p180 in the BRB, PISTOL section, 3rd para

Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons.

From the first quote, Grenade is a weapon type.

The second quote says you cannot use another weapon type and a Pistol in the same shooting action.

Therefore you cannot swap your Pistol for a Grenade.

RAW grenades can only be thrown in this scenario by a unit with 2+ models where one fires a pistol.

You're arguing the situation for one model. And that is largely correct.

RAW also means a unit of 2+ models may throw a grenade after advancing if at least one model fires with an Assault weapon.

The language is fairly specific.

RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

 Overheal wrote:


RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

RAW also do not treat grenades like pistol weapons, ergo they do not function within 1" of an enemy.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Overheal wrote:


RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

RAW also do not treat grenades like pistol weapons, ergo they do not function within 1" of an enemy.

And that's the point the some are missing. When using a Grenade like a Pistol they are mixing Weapon Types and weapon rules without explicit permission.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Overheal wrote:


RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

RAW also do not treat grenades like pistol weapons, ergo they do not function within 1" of an enemy.

Correct per step 2 of shooting they would only be fired at another unit within range of the grenade but not within 1" of friendlies.

The unit being ineligible to be selected for shooting is only in step 1. Pistols have an exception to this step, (assault weapons too for the case of advancing). Pistols activate the unit for shooting and supersede step 1. It activates the unit for shooting and the unit proceeds to step 2.

 Overheal wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

 Overheal wrote:


RAW do NOT treat grenades like heavy or rapid fire or flamer weapons and people are throwing that in here as a scoff without actually absorbing the discussion here.

RAW also do not treat grenades like pistol weapons, ergo they do not function within 1" of an enemy.

Correct per step 2 of shooting they would only be fired at another unit within range of the grenade but not within 1" of friendlies.

The unit being ineligible to be selected for shooting is only in step 1. Pistols have an exception to this step, (assault weapons too for the case of advancing). Pistols activate the unit for shooting and supersede step 1. It activates the unit for shooting and the unit proceeds to step 2.

But that doesn't make the word "Grenade" into "Pistol." The weapon type "Pistol" is what gives THAT weapon permission to fire into combat. Otherwise yes, if you replace a "Rapid Fire" weapon with a "Grenade" your argument would let me rapid fire that grenade. Or if my devastator throws a Grenade instead of firing a Heavy weapon after moving, it would get a -1 to hit.

I agree with above posters who have said "Okay, you switch to grenade. Now it's a grenade, and you don't get to shoot with that model at all." Because you're trying to use Pistol rules to change restrictions on other weapons, but that's not how it works.

But again it doesn't matter.

Whether it be

A pistol
A flamer
A lascannon
A Bolter
A Nexus Meteor System

If the unit is shooting, the rule says a model in the unit may throw a grenade.

That model would then check its range et all per step 2 of the shooting phase.

In this case the unit has already surpassed step 1 because pistols can be shot. So the unit is shooting. So you go to step 2, where your restrictions for firing the grenade have already been tackled except that which says the risk to your allies is too great to target a unit with 1" of friendlies.

Anywho I can confirm GW has passed the details of the issue to the studio for future clarification.

 Overheal wrote:


A pistol
A flamer
A lascannon
A Bolter
A Nexus Meteor System

One of those is a weapon type, the others are weapon names.

Pistol - weapon type with rules to be able to fire this weapon within 1" of enemies
Flamer - Assault weapon with rules to be able to fire after advancing with a -1 to hit
Lascannon - Heavy weapon with rules that force a -1 to hit if firing after moving
Bolter - Rapid Fire weapon with rules that allow double shots in half range
Nexus Meteor System - presumably Macro weapon that glasses the table

Your logic with the Pistol rules would mean that you could exchange a grenade for any of these weapons and the following would happen:

Pistol - Grenade gets to be fired within 1" of enemies
Flamer - Grenade gets to be fired after advancing with a -1 to hit
Lascannon - Grenade gets to be fired but you have to take a -1 to hit if you moved
Bolter - Grenade gets to be fired twice if you're within half range

But Grenade type doesn't adopt the rules of the other types, it has its own rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
But like I said, By that logic, shooting at characters is only qualified by a single rule: is it the closest visible enemy unit? It doesn't matter if it's in range or what have you. All that matters is that it's the closest visible enemy unit. If that is true, I can shoot it.

This is quite obviously true. Step 1 is "Choose Unit to Shoot With"; Step 2 is "Choose Targets." So yes, if a character is the closest visible enemy unit you may select it as a target.
Then in Step 3 you might be sol because the character is 28" away and your unit only has boltguns.
But there's nothing preventing this course of events from occurring. So you've shot the target. You've just failed to affect any change.

Me tossing a grenade with only 6" range doesn't alter that process.

Jacksmiles wrote:

Your logic with the Pistol rules would mean that you could exchange a grenade for any of these weapons and the following would happen:

Pistol - Grenade gets to be fired within 1" of enemies
Flamer - Grenade gets to be fired after advancing with a -1 to hit
Lascannon - Grenade gets to be fired but you have to take a -1 to hit if you moved
Bolter - Grenade gets to be fired twice if you're within half range

But Grenade type doesn't adopt the rules of the other types, it has its own rules.

No. I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion either, or how others did.

The rules for Assault Weapons say

"A model with an Assault weapon can fire it even if it Advanced earlier that turn. If it does so, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn."

Therefore, the ASSAULT weapon would be -1 to hit.

The unit is still shooting though, and per GRENADE rules the unit is shooting so "a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon."

The rules for HEAVY weapons state "If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn."

Only the HEAVY weapon would be -1 to hit.

RAPID FIRE states "A model firing a Rapid Fire weapon doubles the number of attacks it makes if its target is within half the weapon’s maximum range."

The model throwing a grenade "may throw one instead of firing any other weapon." It is not firing a rapid fire weapon, so it never doubles the number of attacks [the weapon] makes if its target is within half the weapon's maximum range."

 puma713 wrote:
All of you people are conflating so many issues and over complicating this. Grenades don't get the abilities of other weapons or any of this other nonsense.

Again, the grenade rule is only qualified by a single rule: is my unit shooting? It doesn't matter if they're using pistols or flamers or what have you. All that matters is that my unit is shooting. If that is true, then a grenade may be used.

You all are getting too wrapped up in the minutiae of which weapon is used, when that detail has no bearing on the Grenade rule whatsoever.

Wrong. The grenade rule is qualified by a second rule: is my unit within 1" of an enemy unit?. This is a qualification that always applies to grenades. Having a pistol that lets you shoot within 1" does not mean that that rule transfers to using a grenade instead. If you try to use a grenade, you still have the basic limiation on grenades that it can not be used if your unit is within 1" of an enemy unit; only pistols have something that overrides that. Switch to using a grenade, you no longer have anything that lets you shoot while within 1". This is not "minutiae", it's a fundamental rule.

And the Chaos FAQ backs this up.

"Wrong. The grenade rule is qualified by a second rule: is my unit within 1" of an enemy unit?. This is a qualification that always applies to grenades. "

No.

you

1) Choose the Unit to Shoot with

normally the unit cant shoot, but because it fell back, or it advanced, or it is within 1" of an enemy.

Pistols get by this. So the unit has been chosen to shoot with. You move to steps 2, 3, + +

When you elect a grenade to be thrown, you are not re-choosing the unit to shoot with, you have already chosen the unit to shoot with.

But then when you try to choose the grenade instead, you have a ranged weapon that does not have permission to be used when within 1" of an enemy unit, so when you go to select that weapon you find that it's an invalid choice to be used then.

 doctortom wrote:
But then when you try to choose the grenade instead, you have a ranged weapon that does not have permission to be used when within 1" of an enemy unit, so when you go to select that weapon you find that it's an invalid choice to be used then.

This has been stated about 4 thousand times. Certain people will just ignore this. This thread has zero reason to exist.

 doctortom wrote:
But then when you try to choose the grenade instead, you have a ranged weapon that does not have permission to be used when within 1" of an enemy unit, so when you go to select that weapon you find that it's an invalid choice to be used then.

Where do the rules state that Grenades do not have permission to be used within 1" of an enemy unit?

The rules say

"You may not pick a unit
that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or
a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit."

The DO NOT say

"You may not pick a unit
that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or
a WEAPON that is within 1" of an enemy unit."

 Overheal wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

Your logic with the Pistol rules would mean that you could exchange a grenade for any of these weapons and the following would happen:

Pistol - Grenade gets to be fired within 1" of enemies
Flamer - Grenade gets to be fired after advancing with a -1 to hit
Lascannon - Grenade gets to be fired but you have to take a -1 to hit if you moved
Bolter - Grenade gets to be fired twice if you're within half range

But Grenade type doesn't adopt the rules of the other types, it has its own rules.

No. I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion either, or how others did.

The rules for Assault Weapons say

"A model with an Assault weapon can fire it even if it Advanced earlier that turn. If it does so, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn."

Therefore, the ASSAULT weapon would be -1 to hit.

The unit is still shooting though, and per GRENADE rules the unit is shooting so "a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon."

The rules for HEAVY weapons state "If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn."

Only the HEAVY weapon would be -1 to hit.

RAPID FIRE states "A model firing a Rapid Fire weapon doubles the number of attacks it makes if its target is within half the weapon’s maximum range."

The model throwing a grenade "may throw one instead of firing any other weapon." It is not firing a rapid fire weapon, so it never doubles the number of attacks [the weapon] makes if its target is within half the weapon's maximum range."

I agree with your above statements because they're true - a weapon type does not in fact adopt the traits of another weapon type.

PISTOL states "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit..."

Emphasis mine. Pistol. Pistol is a weapon type, only weapons with that weapon type can fire within 1". I don't know how you're not seeing a massive double standard here when you say Grenades get to fire within 1".

They are not Pistols. They are Grenades.

Using the exact same reasoning as you used above - they are not Rapid Fire, Heavy, or Assault weapons. They are Grenades.

I get that the argument is that you can fire Grenades in place of any other weapon, but they don't take on the aspects of that weapon, and don't follow that weapon's type rules, so the 1" restriction still applies.

text removed.

Reds8n