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Jacksmiles wrote:

I agree with your above statements because they're true - a weapon type does not in fact adopt the traits of another weapon type.

PISTOL states "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit..."

Emphasis mine. Pistol. Pistol is a weapon type, only weapons with that weapon type can fire within 1". I don't know how you're not seeing a massive double standard here when you say Grenades get to fire within 1"

How is it a double standard?

The model can fire the pistol

The model shoots the pistol.

The model's unit is shooting.

A grenade can be used "each time a unit shoots."

 Overheal wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

I agree with your above statements because they're true - a weapon type does not in fact adopt the traits of another weapon type.

PISTOL states "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit..."

Emphasis mine. Pistol. Pistol is a weapon type, only weapons with that weapon type can fire within 1". I don't know how you're not seeing a massive double standard here when you say Grenades get to fire within 1"

How is it a double standard?

The model can fire the pistol

The model shoots the pistol.

The model's unit is shooting.

A grenade can be used "each time a unit shoots."

Because by this logic, Characters no longer need to be in range for you to shoot them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Because by this logic, Characters no longer need to be in range for you to shoot them.

No?? Checking Range happens in Step 2 of shooting.

"In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) and be visible to the
shooting model."

provided that (also step 2)

"Models cannot target enemy units that
are within 1" of friendly models – the risk
of hitting your own troops is too great."

 Overheal wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:

I agree with your above statements because they're true - a weapon type does not in fact adopt the traits of another weapon type.

PISTOL states "A model can fire a Pistol even if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit..."

Emphasis mine. Pistol. Pistol is a weapon type, only weapons with that weapon type can fire within 1". I don't know how you're not seeing a massive double standard here when you say Grenades get to fire within 1"

How is it a double standard?

The model can fire the pistol

The model shoots the pistol.

The model's unit is shooting.

A grenade can be used "each time a unit shoots."

No, the UNIT cannot shoot if it is within 1" of an enemy unit. The MODEL can Shoot a Pistol if the unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

The UNIT is not allowed to Shoot, so therefore the model cannot Shoot the Grenade as the UNIT is not shooting.

Do you know the difference between a unit and a model? They are quite different entities in interactions.

Are models not part of the unit they are a part of?

Do units with models shooting not count as units doing shooting?

Charistoph,
I think a better question would be: Does the Authors know the difference between Model and Unit?
But that is a long standing joke when it comes to Game Workshop and an important distinction which they have occasionally ignored themselves....

My answer is to actually Rewrite either the Pistol Rule, or to rewrite Step 1 of the sequence. The Authors could have either written into the Pistol Rule that Units containing Models equipped with pistols may... blah blah blah. They could have also changed step 1, which is what I prefer to do, in order to read "Units within 1 inch of an Enemy Unit may only fire Pistols during the Shooting Phase..." instead of Restricting the Unit from attacking outright. Either way it would still allow Step 1 to effect the Unit, and would also make the whole question about Grenades moot as the Restriction would be a specific and resounding No instead of a 'that is twisted, filled with ill-logic and clearly unintended, No....'

Step 2 and the Targeting Unit Rule also need tweaking to allow the Unit to nominate correctly, but it is more or less the same as above with slightly different wording.

More likely they will errata the Grenades rules in some way, such as "when a model is eligible to shoot" which makes the whooooole problem vanish.

BoLS was just arguing today for buffing grenades in general though. Things like being able to advance and throw or throw in CC (....like this whole thread has suggested)

who knows what GW will ultimately decide for them.

I would like to see a return of the 'can be used in Close Combat against Monstrous Creatures and Vehicle' rule for Krak and Melta Bombs.

It really is a difficult problem for the Authors however, the question of 'how do you make it so Grenades are actually worth using in every game?'
This is because Grenades are found on so many Models, across so many Armies, so any little change made to the default way Grenades work will send ripples throughout the game. If they change the Grenade Rules to make them anything other then 'lacking of luster' they are going to see Grenades go from being something we forget the Unit is even carrying, to being consider the most valuable thing said Units can bring to the table. Additionally, on Units which have a better weapon then 'flash-light' as default, such changes might not even be noticed as Grenades still remain inferior to the Wargear said Unit was chosen for. If they want to improve on grenades, Game Workshop will have to go very slowly and consider the implications of such changes... and we can all now stop laughing.

I would say a better answer would be to give "Grenadier" Units special Rules that allow them more flexibility when using grenades, if they really want to improve on Grenades.
Hell... Orks should get the first lot of Grenadier Units, maybe with some Rules that allow self-inflicted Wounds by mistake, as I have no problem seeing them running around flinging TNT everywhere.

Everyone here seems to have skipped some basics here... The first thing we should be asking is, "Where is the restriction on shooting in CC written?"

"You may not pick a unit that has advanced or fell back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit"

Nothing, not even the pistol's rule gets around this. This is technically the end of a RaW discussion on the topic. As written, units within 1" of an enemy cannot be nominated to shoot, period.

Let's say we're willing to move past that, and accept that the rule for pistols allows you to nominate the bearer's unit to shoot.

Technically, as written, there is no restriction on firing any weapons at this point. There never was a rule prohibiting you from *firing* weapons while within 1" of an enemy in the first place - the rule was against nominating the unit to shoot.

Buuut all of that goes back to the inferred authority to nominate a squad with at least one model equipped with a pistol.

Bottom line is that GW did a lame job writing the rules. We all know what they meant. Pistols only in CC - any other argument (while perhaps technically correct) is mental masturbation.

znelson wrote:

Bottom line is that GW did a lame job writing the rules. We all know what they meant. Pistols only in CC - any other argument (while perhaps technically correct) is mental masturbation.

Pretty much this. I can't believe there are currently 5 pages of people arguing that you can or can't throw a grenade at someone who's punching you in the face. While you can't necessarily use realism in a game where orks are teleporting around and BDSM space pirates are shooting at you, there is still a pretty clear distinction that RAI pistols are the only thing you can shoot in CQC without any specific special rules stating otherwise. Tiptoeing around the rules may be fun to think up for hypercompetitive people, but it completely sucks the fun out of general pick-up games.

znelson wrote:
Everyone here seems to have skipped some basics here... The first thing we should be asking is, "Where is the restriction on shooting in CC written?"

"You may not pick a unit that has advanced or fell back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit"

Nothing, not even the pistol's rule gets around this. This is technically the end of a RaW discussion on the topic. As written, units within 1" of an enemy cannot be nominated to shoot, period.

Let's say we're willing to move past that, and accept that the rule for pistols allows you to nominate the bearer's unit to shoot.

Technically, as written, there is no restriction on firing any weapons at this point. There never was a rule prohibiting you from *firing* weapons while within 1" of an enemy in the first place - the rule was against nominating the unit to shoot.

Buuut all of that goes back to the inferred authority to nominate a squad with at least one model equipped with a pistol.

Bottom line is that GW did a lame job writing the rules. We all know what they meant. Pistols only in CC - any other argument (while perhaps technically correct) is mental masturbation.

Actually, there is a separate restriction on firing weapons within 1" of a model beyond not being able to select a unit. The following is from step two of the shooting phase:

Models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models – the risk of hitting your own troops is too great.

When assigning a target for each model to use their particular weapons on, you can not select a target unit that is within 1" of friendly models. Your own unit is made of friendly models, so you can pick the unit within 1" as a target. The pistol rules allow you to get by this on a per model basis, as all targeting is done per model. The following is also from the second step of the shooting phase:

In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model.

So, if we assume that you are allowed to select a unit to shoot with that is within 1" as long as it has Pistols (which seems to be intent otherwise pistols wouldn't work at all), you then move to a selecting targets for each model in the unit for each weapon they are firing/throwing. If we have a unit of 2 models, one with a Pistol and one with a Grenade, you target both of them separately. If this unit is within 1" of an enemy, it can be selected to shoot at all in the phase due to having the Pistol as long as it shoot the closest unit (this is not RAW but is the only intent by which the Pistol rules work at all). When targeting the model with the Pistol, you have explicit permission to target the unit within 1" as it allows you to ignore the friendly model restriction. However, if you try to target the model with a Grenade on the unit within 1", the rules specifically forbid you from doing this as there are friendly models within 1" and you have no permission to bypass this restriction with a Grenade (or any weapon that isn't a Pistol)

Znelson,
I was going to say 'oh yes, we know...' but you took the argument to another logical level that I never considered before... so.
*Slow Clap, building up to a roaring applause*
Nice, it is more broken then we originally thought!

Overheal wrote:Are models not part of the unit they are a part of?

They are, but actions taken by a model aren't necessarily taken by the unit. When you remove a model from play, are you removing a unit? Only if that is the last model of the unit.

Overheal wrote:Do units with models shooting not count as units doing shooting?

Where does it state they do?

The simple fact that Pistols allow Models to shoot at that range, but you can't select the unit to shoot in the first place. In this case, it must either be the models are able to take action on their own without being included in a unit action, or the Pistol's advantage means absolutely nothing as you never are able to select the Pistol in Shooting's Step 3, because you cannot get past Step 1.

Not matter which way you look at it, there is nothing that allows a unit armed with Pistols to use Grenades when they can't use Rapid Fire Weapons.

znelson wrote:Everyone here seems to have skipped some basics here... The first thing we should be asking is, "Where is the restriction on shooting in CC written?"

"You may not pick a unit that has advanced or fell back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit"

Nothing, not even the pistol's rule gets around this. This is technically the end of a RaW discussion on the topic. As written, units within 1" of an enemy cannot be nominated to shoot, period.

Correct. The Pistol rule is an allowance for the MODEL to Shoot when in that range, not the unit.

The question then is, when are models allowed to Shoot? Usually only when the unit goes to Shoot.

znelson wrote:Let's say we're willing to move past that, and accept that the rule for pistols allows you to nominate the bearer's unit to shoot.

Technically, as written, there is no restriction on firing any weapons at this point. There never was a rule prohibiting you from *firing* weapons while within 1" of an enemy in the first place - the rule was against nominating the unit to shoot.

Correction. There is no restriction on MODELS firing any Weapons at this point, because models cannot normally Shoot unless the unit is shooting.

znelson wrote:Bottom line is that GW did a lame job writing the rules. We all know what they meant. Pistols only in CC - any other argument (while perhaps technically correct) is mental masturbation.

It is not technically correct, it is Easter egg hunting on Christmas, i.e. looking for advantages where there aren't any and trying to make a similarity between two separate things and trying to present them as the same.

When a model is removed does the unit not suffer casualties and take a morale test?

Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

How does the pistol fire if the unit it's in is not active for shooting in order to declare a target?

As above no I don't see this working for Assault, Heavy or Rapid Fire weapons. Only Grenades have the qualifier "every time a unit shoots"

 Overheal wrote:


Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

Step 2, where it says "models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models - the risk of hitting your own tropps is too great.". Of perhaps step 3 "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit." Strangely, they don't mention this in step 2 where you declare the targets you're shooting at. It looks like things that apply in step 3 are meant to be retroactive to step 2 also given that.

The more I read this thread, the more confusing it gets.

Assault Weapon: allows you to do a shooting attack at -1 if you advance. Grenade allows you to give up a shooting attack with one Assault Weapon to throw a grenade. Is this different than:

Rapid Fire 1 Weapon: allows you to do an extra shooting attack with the weapon if the target is at half range. Grenade allows you to give up a shooting attack with one Rapid Fire 1 Weapon to throw a grenade. Is this different than:

Heavy Weapon: requires you to do your shooting attack at -1 if you moved. Grenade allows you to give up a shooting attack with one Heavy Weapon to throw a grenade. Is this different than:

Pistol Weapon: allows you to a do a shooting attack with the Pistol Weapon when closer than 1" to a enemy unit. Grenade allows you to give up a shooting attack with one Pistol Weapon to throw a grenade.

It's either all these are true or you can't throw grenades if you're shooting assault weapons after advancing, you can't throw grenades if you're using rapid fire and you can't throw grenades when you're shooting pistols in melee.

I'd go by being allowed to throw grenades in any case where a shooting attack is being made. e.g. Can you make a shooting attack? Is the enemy unit in range? Can you throw a grenade with a model instead of firing any other of it's weapons? Is the enemy unit in grenade range?

 doctortom wrote:

 Overheal wrote:


Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

Step 2, where it says "models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models - the risk of hitting your own tropps is too great.". Of perhaps step 3 "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit." Strangely, they don't mention this in step 2 where you declare the targets you're shooting at. It looks like things that apply in step 3 are meant to be retroactive to step 2 also given that.

Again, I'm not suggesting grenades can ever be thrown, RAW or RAI, into enemy units within 1" of friendly models.

So I don't see what your saying.

doctortom wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

Step 2, where it says "models cannot target enemy units that are within 1" of friendly models - the risk of hitting your own tropps is too great.". Of perhaps step 3 "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit." Strangely, they don't mention this in step 2 where you declare the targets you're shooting at. It looks like things that apply in step 3 are meant to be retroactive to step 2 also given that.

One cannot reach Step 2 or Step 3 without crossing Step 1. If you have crossed Step 1, then the unit is Shooting.

Overheal wrote:When a model is removed does the unit not suffer casualties and take a morale test?

Indeed it does, as it is stated as such. But unless that is the last (or only) model of the unit, we do not remove the unit when we remove a model.

Overheal wrote:Where in The Shooting Phase do you elect models and not units, to shoot?

How does the pistol fire if the unit it's in is not active for shooting in order to declare a target?

A point I raised if you were bothering to pay attention. It is only if we accept the Pistol's rule to override this restriction as well as the 1" restriction, can we have the model shooting when the unit does not.

Overheal wrote:As above no I don't see this working for Assault, Heavy or Rapid Fire weapons. Only Grenades have the qualifier "every time a unit shoots"

Well, when an Assault Weapon Shoots after the unit Advances, would that not also apply?

No matter how you try and twist and bend it, you are attributing the rules of one Weapon Type to another without explicit and direct instructions to do so. A Grenade is not allowed to be Shot when the unit is within 1" of a unit. A Grenade is not allowed to be Shot at a unit that is within 1" of a friendly unit. Your attribution of "when the unit shoots" is a red herring as it involves cherry picking what rules you are willing to follow whilst also ignoring the rules you do not want to follow.

It is a nice little loophole, but I concur:
If you are doing X instead of Y, you can not proceed to use Rules specific to Y.

A point I raised if you were bothering to pay attention.

text removed. reds8n

The model is still shooting and is part of the unit.

"Well, when an Assault Weapon Shoots after the unit Advances, would that not also apply? "

As mentioned earlier in the thread ("if you bothered to read it" we good?) yeah, it would/does. Assault weapons can be fired after advancing. A model in a unit firing an assault weapon -> unit is shooting -> "Every time a unit shoots..."

 Overheal wrote:

A point I raised if you were bothering to pay attention.

The model is still shooting and is part of the unit.

But the model cannot shoot as part of the unit as the unit is not allowed to be shooting. While models are part of a unit, just because a model does something does not necessarily mean it is because the unit is also doing it, and vice versa, unless we are specifically informed to address it as such. We do not remove units from play when we remove models from play.

For example, a model going to shoot a Heavy Weapon cares little if the unit moved, it only matters if the model moved. By this standard you are operating under, if one model moved in a unit, than a Devastator shooting his Lascannon would suffer a deficit to his To Hit roll.

 Overheal wrote:

Well, when an Assault Weapon Shoots after the unit Advances, would that not also apply?

As mentioned earlier in the thread ("if you bothered to read it" we good?) yeah, it would/does. Assault weapons can be fired after advancing. A model in a unit firing an assault weapon -> unit is shooting -> "Every time a unit shoots..."

But you are still mixing Weapon Types, something that is not allowed to do, nor have you been given permission to do so. You are attributing an action available to a model to one being performed by the unit. It says when the unit is shooting. A unit is not allowed to shoot in these circumstances, so a Grenade may not be shot any more than an Assault, Rapid Fire, or Heavy Weapon, and for the exact same reasons: they are operating under the same conditions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The statement, "Each time a unit shoots", is tied to the rest of the sentence. This sentence is actually a limitation and restriction on the number of models in the unit which may use this Weapon Type and the number of Weapons the model may shoot. At no point is it a removal of a restriction.

So if the unit is not allowed to be shooting how are pistols and assault weapons ever fired in CC or after advancing respectively?

 Overheal wrote:
So if the unit is not allowed to be shooting how are pistols and assault weapons ever fired in CC or after advancing respectively?

They aren't if you follow strict RAW to the letter.

 Overheal wrote:
So if the unit is not allowed to be shooting how are pistols and assault weapons ever fired in CC or after advancing respectively?

RaW you can't. So while you're making a unsound (at best) argument to using grenades within 1", I can point out a rock solid argument for you never being able to fire in the first place, which is what I would personally do if anyone tried to do this in a game I played.

 Overheal wrote:
So if the unit is not allowed to be shooting how are pistols and assault weapons ever fired in CC or after advancing respectively?

As I stated earlier, the statement that allows those models to shoot those weapons in particular is permission to bypass the step which requires the unit to be shooting to select the Weapon in the first place.

There is far less to jump over and fewer shenanigans employed here than striving to give a Weapon Type the ability of another Weapon Type without specific direction.

 Charistoph wrote:
As I stated earlier, the statement that allows those models to shoot those weapons in particular is permission to bypass the step which requires the unit to be shooting to select the Weapon in the first place.

Except strictly speaking it isn't.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
As I stated earlier, the statement that allows those models to shoot those weapons in particular is permission to bypass the step which requires the unit to be shooting to select the Weapon in the first place.

Except strictly speaking it isn't.

It's as close as any of the rules quoted so far go when considered in their entirety. I also stated earlier it isn't perfect and requires some leaps of logic to reach, but it is far less complicated and brings in fewer shenanigans than allowing a Weapon Type another Weapon Type's rules.

I think we all agree it is just another Game Workshop screw-up, and that it is easy to see what they where attempting to do:
Turn that +1 attack on Pistols into an actual shot that is fired into the face of the person you are stabbing.

Throwing a grenade into the face of the person you are stabbing is very unlikely to be what the Authors intended....

Got another message back GW. No you cannot use grenades in melee. However they gave he obligtory play how you want and to have fun blah blah blah. They also said the pass this on to the FAQ team for further evaluation.

I know many people on this forum don't take any rule clarifications unless it's in the published FAQ, but for me this debate is over.

 Tsol wrote:
Got another message back GW. No you cannot use grenades in melee. However they gave he obligtory play how you want and to have fun blah blah blah. They also said the pass this on to the FAQ team for further evaluation.

I know many people on this forum don't take any rule clarifications unless it's in the published FAQ, but for me this debate is over.

The debate was over after the first reply to be honest. Hopefully we get a one of those "Stop being dum" FAQs like the "Can I call my guard regiment Ultramarines" FAQ denial.