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Or, y'know, the unique and characterful transport they already have, but in plastic?

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Or, y'know, the unique and characterful transport they already have, but in plastic?

I'd like the Forgeworld vehicles in plastic - they are gorgeous PLUS Ad Mechh Rhinos and Land Raiders

What's wrong with having them in resin ? Genuine question, I never worked with FW resin. I too love the Triaros, and if it can transport 20 models like it does actually (if I remember right) there's no need to buy four of them at least.

 Aaranis wrote:
What's wrong with having them in resin ? Genuine question, I never worked with FW resin. I too love the Triaros, and if it can transport 20 models like it does actually (if I remember right) there's no need to buy four of them at least.

Nothing really against resin but I really hoping for 40k versions and plastic is easier to be honest.

Speaking for personal experience, as a person who is rather new to everything in the hobby, working with resin is a huge pain in the ass for several reason.

First, the model will come covered in a fine coating of some chemical that is apparently used to seperate the resin from the mold. That coating makes it so glue and paint won't stick. You'll need to wash all the pieces prior to gluing. If you missed a spot its going to be a pain in the ass to get glue to stick when assembling.

Second, there are a lot errors/bubbles/voids that need to be fixed with green stuff which isn't easy if you're inexperienced.

Third, anything large and straight is probably going to be warped and will need to be fixed. This isn't actually that hard. I run water through the coffee maker and submerge the pieces and they usually fix themselves.

Fourth, I find that the flash on FW casts are way bigger and way harder to remove compared to plastic which just flakes off with a little scraper. You'll want a good pair of clipper and maybe even a saw to get good looking models.

Finally, and this might be a personal issue, I find that resin breaks extremely easily. it feels softer and more pliable but with even a little too much force it will snap right apart. I am clumsy and oafish and it just doesn't work great for me.

I hate all the resin stuff. A lot of the Forgeworld models look incredible but the thought of building any more vehicles is just completely daunting for me right now. Even characters can be a humungous pain in the ass sometimes if you didn't clean them well enough and the fething arm wont stick no matter what you do melon-fether why wont you stick just stick why the feth isnt it sticking god damnit its been 5 minutes and im still pressing this arm on

 Aaranis wrote:
What's wrong with having them in resin ? Genuine question, I never worked with FW resin. I too love the Triaros, and if it can transport 20 models like it does actually (if I remember right) there's no need to buy four of them at least.

Plastic is cheeper and much easier to work with


What I want is more info on the knights are they just rolling them into the codex or are these new

Qlanth wrote:Speaking for personal experience, as a person who is rather new to everything in the hobby, working with resin is a huge pain in the ass for several reason.

First, the model will come covered in a fine coating of some chemical that is apparently used to seperate the resin from the mold. That coating makes it so glue and paint won't stick. You'll need to wash all the pieces prior to gluing. If you missed a spot its going to be a pain in the ass to get glue to stick when assembling.

Second, there are a lot errors/bubbles/voids that need to be fixed with green stuff which isn't easy if you're inexperienced.

Third, anything large and straight is probably going to be warped and will need to be fixed. This isn't actually that hard. I run water through the coffee maker and submerge the pieces and they usually fix themselves.

Fourth, I find that the flash on FW casts are way bigger and way harder to remove compared to plastic which just flakes off with a little scraper. You'll want a good pair of clipper and maybe even a saw to get good looking models.

Finally, and this might be a personal issue, I find that resin breaks extremely easily. it feels softer and more pliable but with even a little too much force it will snap right apart. I am clumsy and oafish and it just doesn't work great for me.

I hate all the resin stuff. A lot of the Forgeworld models look incredible but the thought of building any more vehicles is just completely daunting for me right now. Even characters can be a humungous pain in the ass sometimes if you didn't clean them well enough and the fething arm wont stick no matter what you do melon-fether why wont you stick just stick why the feth isnt it sticking god damnit its been 5 minutes and im still pressing this arm on

Woah woah okay I think I got it Have courage, you know you want these FW models and you'll fight for it and win !

Oldmike wrote:Plastic is cheeper and much easier to work with


What I want is more info on the knights are they just rolling them into the codex or are these new

I believe they'll just fit in the actual knights with the ability to be affected by Mechanicus abilities. I think it makes sense they're in this book and not another, they're more played by AdMech players than IG players as far as I know.

Being able to repair your Knights with Mechanicus HQ's and the like would be neat enough as is.

If they allow that maybe there will be a change in rules some way to counter-balance that ? Or not, after all Chaos Knights can be repaired as far as I know.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
The whole concept of STC's is an idea I wouldn't mind seeing retconned out of existence. I'm sure that back when GW only made 2 vehicle kits, the rhino and the landraider, the whole idea of STC was invented to justify why every army used exactly the same vehicles, i.e. to sell more models.

Not really - STC was there from the start as a example of how the Imperium works (or rather doesn't) - originally they had not even intended to sell actual vehicles - at most bikes - they had a huge section in Rogue Trader to tell you have to make vehicles from odds and ends

but eventually they brought out a Land Raider kit but it was a big thing.

I like the STC aspect and it means there are plenty of story hooks for the Ad Mech and their exploratory as well as politicizing between Imperium powers.

STC's were mentioned in Rogue Trader? I had forgotten that.

I think the idea of STCs is fine as a concept and it provides an explanation as to why all Imperial vehicles, from every part of the Imperium follow the same design. What I don't like though, is when some people try to use it to straightjacket the designers. I've heard people basically arguing that if it isn't already in the background, then GW are going against their own fluff when they come out with something new.

Sometimes designers should be "straightjacketed" - they're working on a major IP not their own little personal projects, and maintaining the integrity of that IP through respecting its established material wherever possible should be a consideration for GW when they produce new product. It often isn't, evidently, but it should be.

As to that argument at the end there, eh, that depends on what the fluff is and what the new thing is. Skitarii(nee Tech Guard) were specifically called out as using esoteric variants of STC vehicles for decades, so yeah, the more recent material that expressly states the opposite is definitely going against their own fluff. They did the same thing when producing the various new fighter craft for Space Marines, who had previously been explicitly banned from fielding dedicated air superiority craft in the same way they were prohibited from fielding "ship of the line" starships rather than vessels designed to facilitate and support planetary assaults. There are other instances where they made additions that weren't against existing fluff per se but were simply unnecessary(ie they served no real purpose that wasn't adequately served already by another model or by a concept in the fluff they didn't bother using). Adding a newshiny transport("relic" Triaros don't count because regardless of how often they show up on the table, like Relic dreadnoughts they'll be rare as all bugger in the fluff FW puts out) for Skitarii fits the latter scenario as well, since there are also existing, well described Rhino variants to make if they want to give Skitarii a transport that reflects the fluff but is also different to the normal Rhino.

In the end though it's not adding random wierd nonsense like Ironstriders and Onagers and Chibihawks etc I object to per se - hell sometimes the wierd additions end up being great - it's the fact that adding them comes at the expense of giving us the choice to build armies based on the existing fluff. Because we have Ironstriders, we're not allowed Sentinels. Because we have Onagers, we're not allowed Russes. And you can be damn sure that if they come out with some bizarro ten-legged spidertank transport thingie they'll double-down on preventing us from using Rhinos, Chimeras etc. It's the naked, cynical sales tactics of it all that really biles my piss.

 Aaranis wrote:
What's wrong with having them in resin ? Genuine question, I never worked with FW resin. I too love the Triaros, and if it can transport 20 models like it does actually (if I remember right) there's no need to buy four of them at least.

Two words: Super Glue

Hate it. Hate using it. Much prefer plastic cement.

But do we need an army that uses all the same things we already have? I didn't start collecting Admech because I wanted to use those godawful box looking vehicles, I liked the Admech asthetic. Anyone who wants to play guard or space marines already can, I'd just as soon Admech stayed focused on new releases, not just give us old handmedowns.

If the old fluff has to go away, so be it. New necrons are more fun than old necrons. Primaris don't bother me. Sometimes getting rid of old boring fluff has to happen to make room for something better.

The Macrocarid Exploritor could provide a nice mid point. Until recently it was even called the Mechanicum Land Raider and it does look similar to the Land Raider whilst maintaining a distinct Mechanicum flair.

Well, Onagers Dunecrawlers are 100 times better and more fitting to the Ad Mech aesthetics that just Leman Russes. As Silveralien said, if all Imperial Armies need to be all of the already existing vehicles and units with some new sparkling and colours to be "fluffy", I'm be very glad that they just abandon that fluff.
Personally I fully understand why a universe like this needs to add constant new things that they pull out of the end of their backs.

This kind of constant expansive universe can't be all made since the first day, guys. Haven't you add a work of yours that has been running from maybe 5 or10 or 15 years, and after some years you see your first versions of that work and tought "Well, this is crap, I can do it much better now".

This is why I find so annoying the "But this hasn't been mentioned since the beginning of this universe 30 years ago, why are you doing it now!".

DC, Marvel, Warhammer, Warcraft with every new expansion of the universe. They all add new things, and many times they are great (Like how in WoTLK they added the Vrykul race and made them the Ancestors of the humans, making the origin of warcraft's humans titanic), and other times is just crap that goes agains't well stablised fluff.
But that isn't about the "fact" of adding new things to an universe. Is how you do it.

This isn't a "Complete and done" universe like the Lord of the Rings one of Tolkien. They need to add new things to stay in business. And made changes, and retcon things, etc...

SilverAlien wrote:
But do we need an army that uses all the same things we already have? I didn't start collecting Admech because I wanted to use those godawful box looking vehicles, I liked the Admech asthetic. Anyone who wants to play guard or space marines already can, I'd just as soon Admech stayed focused on new releases, not just give us old handmedowns.

If the old fluff has to go away, so be it. New necrons are more fun than old necrons. Primaris don't bother me. Sometimes getting rid of old boring fluff has to happen to make room for something better.

Boring for you. Don't bother you. Appealing for you. Better for you.

Some of us actually quite like 40K.

 Yodhrin wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
But do we need an army that uses all the same things we already have? I didn't start collecting Admech because I wanted to use those godawful box looking vehicles, I liked the Admech asthetic. Anyone who wants to play guard or space marines already can, I'd just as soon Admech stayed focused on new releases, not just give us old handmedowns.

If the old fluff has to go away, so be it. New necrons are more fun than old necrons. Primaris don't bother me. Sometimes getting rid of old boring fluff has to happen to make room for something better.

Boring for you. Don't bother you. Appealing for you. Better for you.

Some of us actually quite like 40K.

Oh no, not this "Not true 40k-fan" again.

I totally agree that sometimes people just doesn't like 40k and they should look for another universe (Like when they say that the Imperium is stupid being this oppresive and totally xenophobic regime). But this isn't the case. Is about making factions unique, and not having all of the universe anchored to the foundatins done 25 years ago.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I've heard people basically arguing that if it isn't already in the background, then GW are going against their own fluff when they come out with something new.

This is clearly not true in the slightest.

GW can, and does, do whatever they want. They've been inventing new units that have 'always been there' forever. Even the Primaris Marines have "always been there... just in stasis!".

Those working with GW's licenses, well that's a different story.

 Yodhrin wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
But do we need an army that uses all the same things we already have? I didn't start collecting Admech because I wanted to use those godawful box looking vehicles, I liked the Admech asthetic. Anyone who wants to play guard or space marines already can, I'd just as soon Admech stayed focused on new releases, not just give us old handmedowns.

If the old fluff has to go away, so be it. New necrons are more fun than old necrons. Primaris don't bother me. Sometimes getting rid of old boring fluff has to happen to make room for something better.

Boring for you. Don't bother you. Appealing for you. Better for you.

Some of us actually quite like 40K.

Which 40k? The rogue trader silly 40k? 2nd edition, back with squats? 6th/7th, before the various new fluff such as Admech retcons, end times events, and primaris?

Your idea of 40k is just a very specific snap shot in time, no more true than the ones preceding it or following it.

AdMech retcons?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
AdMech retcons?

The army list basically having no bearing on how they were previously portrayed.

Yeah, people needs to understand that no canon rules forever, my son... I mean. Just look at Star Wars with the Disney era and totally decanonization of the Expanded Universe..

The 3rd-7th edition Canon of 40k lasted a very LONG time, but now they have entered a new era for the lore of the universe. People just need to accept that.
And I remark "accept". Accepting that something has changed doesn't mean liking it. But being in negation mode is like being a Creationist. It only gives mental anguish.

Considering how long humans where out in the galaxy during the golden age of technology, would it not be conceivable that the STC databases used in the initial colonizations be somewhat different than STCs used in later colonies. The version 1.0 only being able to produce template for very basic versions of rhinos and russes and STC Prime v45.2 being able to build, say, a uber obital defence russ
Also local needs would likely have dictated what manufacturing infrastucture was built. What we see in the imperium today is most likely the most commonly manufactured items of the day.

The galaxy is pretty big and i think its possible to fit a large number of wildly different toys for the imperium with out betraying the (machine) spirit of the fluff. Even it contradicts certain specific details

For myself i wouldn't mind some 'hand me downs' to get us by until they can supply us with something new. As stated above the Macrocarid is basicaly a souped up land raider

SilverAlien wrote:
The army list basically having no bearing on how they were previously portrayed.

I'd argue that AdMech were never portrayed in any specific way. Really, they were left undefined.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
The army list basically having no bearing on how they were previously portrayed.

I'd argue that AdMech were never portrayed in any specific way. Really, they were left undefined.

I seem to recall certain things (like skitarii having hellguns) being fairly consistent, but that may have not be "canon". Same with rhinos etc.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, people needs to understand that no canon rules forever, my son... I mean. Just look at Star Wars with the Disney era and totally decanonization of the Expanded Universe..

The 3rd-7th edition Canon of 40k lasted a very LONG time, but now they have entered a new era for the lore of the universe. People just need to accept that.
And I remark "accept". Accepting that something has changed doesn't mean liking it. But being in negation mode is like being a Creationist. It only gives mental anguish.

I view it the way I view comic books: Since it's a 30 year long collaborative fictional setting that constantly contradicts itself, canon is a fuzzy, nebulous concept even when the IP holder tries to pretend otherwise. Just use the lore you like and ignore the rest, just as you don't try to reconcile the ever-shifting canon of a superhero setting.

I'm glad the fluff advances as long as it stays true to its roots. It's easier for newer players to say that new fluff is needed to avoid stagnation (and I think so too), but you have to remember the older players who are here from the start. Advancing or changing the fluff without much consideration for its basis can ruin some people's ideas about their own fluff, like you built an entire badass Space Wolves force full of lore about Scandinavian culture with historical names for everyone, because they were like that in the beginning (as I have heard, don't shoot me if I'm wrong), and now you must witness the horror that are Wolfus Wolfborn the Wolflord and his flock of weird wolf worshippers. All I'm saying is that it's a thing to move up the fluff, you just need to at least keep it's foundations running, because in a game like 40k where some people represent the fluff with their models they can be out of fashion with too much drastic changes. I believe that a background is not good just because it's old and the first, and sometimes in my D&D campaign I figure out I wrote something badly and I'd like to change it if my players are okay, so that the whole setting can be on the same page, and so overall better than before. Retconning is a ugly method in my opinion and is to be avoided most of the time, but other times it ought to be used for the sake of the present days needs.

Concerning the Mechanicus, they went from "they use pimped up Rhinos and Land Raider" through "they use Dunecrawlers and flying transports (Rob Sanders novels) to "they walk to the battlefield everytime lol" in a short amount of time. So I believe if GW wants to change its fluff once more, listening to the outcry of many AdMech players about their lack of transports, currently forcing people to play AdMech as an immobile artillery force while picking up better models from the whole Imperium range to fill other roles, they'll disregard their old fluff if that means selling new models by droves, and I'm okay with that. I'd like to play a complete AdMech force and that's very hard to do against serious players without using the Kastelan/Onager spam supported by Cawl.

So bring forth new fluff if needs be, we already have the Cawl abomination so what's popping some new vehicles besides that ?

The Imperium has ten thousand years of history give or take and spans the entire galaxy. Plenty of room for changes and variations in its armed forces. Especially given the "current" events of the setting.

Cawl could just come along and use the mystical powers of common sense to give his troops transports. It'd not even be too much of a stretch in fluff I think.

SilverAlien wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
The army list basically having no bearing on how they were previously portrayed.

I'd argue that AdMech were never portrayed in any specific way. Really, they were left undefined.

I seem to recall certain things (like skitarii having hellguns) being fairly consistent, but that may have not be "canon". Same with rhinos etc.

Skitarii vary from forgeworld to forgeworld - from Tech-Guard (Imperial Guard++), to their description in Priests of Mars:



and things in Titanicus that are mistaken for Chaos:


The 7th Codex dealt with Mars-type Skitarii.

(They also have armour in Titanicus - "A three kilometre-long convoy of skitarii armour had led the procession: tanks and guntracks and mobile Hydra platforms. Vultures and, higher up, Thunderbolts, had skimmed down the line of the convoy like dense flocks of migrating birds.").

 kastelen wrote:
Cawl could just come along and use the mystical powers of common sense to give his troops transports. It'd not even be too much of a stretch in fluff I think.

like this exists in forge world they're call triarios ...seriously gw just give us the forge world stuff