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Fluff - mid/late HH the Emperor ordered that Land Raiders be reserved for Adeptus Astartes use only. Rules-wise the Mechanicum Land Raider in the early books (which I'd just converted out of a Land Raider Prometheus) became the Macrocarid Explorator.
where is this from? i don't remember this anywhere?
"With Traitor forces advancing on Terra itself and Loyalist forces facing total defeat, the Emperor decreed that all remaining Land Raiders still in loyal service should be recalled and that the Legiones Astartes, His favoured Space Marines, who stood at the forefront of Terra's defence, be given exclusive use of these powerful war machines." From wiki: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Land_Raider
Don't remember where it was from, probably from one of the HH books I read.
Plus the Custodes and Inquisition of course......and anyone else who is an exception to the rule in the current year.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
If you read that carefully it says in current service, it wasn't an order for pupetuity it was recalling all active service vehicles.... so unless they can't be made any more...
gendoikari87 wrote: If you read that carefully it says in current service, it wasn't an order for pupetuity it was recalling all active service vehicles.... so unless they can't be made any more...
Read the article Kandela linked - "but with the Emperor's ascension to the Golden Throne, none dared countermand his order that Land Raiders were for the exclusive use of the Space Marines. Thus has it remained for the last 10,000 years"
gendoikari87 wrote: If you read that carefully it says in current service, it wasn't an order for pupetuity it was recalling all active service vehicles.... so unless they can't be made any more...
Read the article Kandela linked - "but with the Emperor's ascension to the Golden Throne, none dared countermand his order that Land Raiders were for the exclusive use of the Space Marines. Thus has it remained for the last 10,000 years"
Plus the Custodes and Inquisition of course......and anyone else who is an exception to the rule in the current year.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
gendoikari87 wrote: If you read that carefully it says in current service, it wasn't an order for pupetuity it was recalling all active service vehicles.... so unless they can't be made any more...
Read the article Kandela linked - "but with the Emperor's ascension to the Golden Throne, none dared countermand his order that Land Raiders were for the exclusive use of the Space Marines. Thus has it remained for the last 10,000 years"
Plus the Custodes and Inquisition of course......and anyone else who is an exception to the rule in the current year.
Though I knew that Custodes were using it (and to be honest - they are like super close to Emperor, more than regular Marines) I never bothered to read that Inquisition have access to them. That's interesting, thank you.
gendoikari87 wrote: If you read that carefully it says in current service, it wasn't an order for pupetuity it was recalling all active service vehicles.... so unless they can't be made any more...
Read the article Kandela linked - "but with the Emperor's ascension to the Golden Throne, none dared countermand his order that Land Raiders were for the exclusive use of the Space Marines. Thus has it remained for the last 10,000 years"
Plus the Custodes and Inquisition of course......and anyone else who is an exception to the rule in the current year.
Though I knew that Custodes were using it (and to be honest - they are like super close to Emperor, more than regular Marines) I never bothered to read that Inquisition have access to them. That's interesting, thank you.
again it probably comes down to the wording... in service... the order might still be in effect for land raiders from the hh era, but does that apply to land raiders made after? Does it apply to new patterns of land raider?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/30 12:45:27
Either way it would be nice to get some kind of transport, it just seem silly to request Land Raider when we have so much firepower already. Rhino or Razorback would suffice. I'm myself a fan of good old Chimera with double Heavy Flamer, but to each their own. Would kill for a conversion kit for Onager to become transport though.
The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
And who are they in use by?
The Inquisition? The persons who are considered to speak with the voice of the Emperor? The Custodes? The protectors of the Emperor himself?
It'd be a compelling argument if the Guard or Arbites or the Navy had Land Raiders. It would be more compelling still if the Sisters of Battle(since they were founded, as an organization, quite a bit after the Heresy) had access to them.
But none of those organizations have them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/30 15:50:07
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
And who are they in use by?
The Inquisition? The persons who are considered to speak with the voice of the Emperor?
The Custodes? The protectors of the Emperor himself?
It'd be a compelling argument if the Guard or Arbites or the Navy had Land Raiders. It would be more compelling still if the Sisters of Battle(since they were founded, as an organization, quite a bit after the Heresy) had access to them.
But none of those organizations have them.
The Custodes and Inquisition are not Space Marines, so...
But Inquisition and Custodes have absolute autorithy over everything in the Imperium, so if someone has access to land raiders besides Space Marines should be them.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
And who are they in use by?
The Inquisition? The persons who are considered to speak with the voice of the Emperor?
The Custodes? The protectors of the Emperor himself?
It'd be a compelling argument if the Guard or Arbites or the Navy had Land Raiders. It would be more compelling still if the Sisters of Battle(since they were founded, as an organization, quite a bit after the Heresy) had access to them.
But none of those organizations have them.
The Custodes and Inquisition are not Space Marines, so...
Custodes are closer to Space Marines/Primarchs than they are to humanity.
The Inquisition is a law unto itself.
What's your point? That because these two organizations have Land Raiders the AdMech should too?
How about instead of just rebranding yet another old kit for a faction, we get some of that archaic tech that the AdMech have been holding out on us?
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
And who are they in use by?
The Inquisition? The persons who are considered to speak with the voice of the Emperor?
The Custodes? The protectors of the Emperor himself?
It'd be a compelling argument if the Guard or Arbites or the Navy had Land Raiders. It would be more compelling still if the Sisters of Battle(since they were founded, as an organization, quite a bit after the Heresy) had access to them.
But none of those organizations have them.
The Custodes and Inquisition are not Space Marines, so...
Custodes are closer to Space Marines/Primarchs than they are to humanity.
The Inquisition is a law unto itself.
What's your point? That because these two organizations have Land Raiders the AdMech should too?
How about instead of just rebranding yet another old kit for a faction, we get some of that archaic tech that the AdMech have been holding out on us?
Why? Because I want to paint my MkIIB Land Raider in my Metalica colors and insignia and be able to use it for my Fulgurite Priests.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
And who are they in use by?
The Inquisition? The persons who are considered to speak with the voice of the Emperor?
The Custodes? The protectors of the Emperor himself?
It'd be a compelling argument if the Guard or Arbites or the Navy had Land Raiders. It would be more compelling still if the Sisters of Battle(since they were founded, as an organization, quite a bit after the Heresy) had access to them.
But none of those organizations have them.
The Custodes and Inquisition are not Space Marines, so...
Custodes are closer to Space Marines/Primarchs than they are to humanity.
The Inquisition is a law unto itself.
What's your point? That because these two organizations have Land Raiders the AdMech should too?
How about instead of just rebranding yet another old kit for a faction, we get some of that archaic tech that the AdMech have been holding out on us?
Why? Because I want to paint my MkIIB Land Raider in my Metalica colors and insignia and be able to use it for my Fulgurite Priests.
We make the things, we should get to use them!
There's always Open Play for that...
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
And who are they in use by?
The Inquisition? The persons who are considered to speak with the voice of the Emperor?
The Custodes? The protectors of the Emperor himself?
It'd be a compelling argument if the Guard or Arbites or the Navy had Land Raiders. It would be more compelling still if the Sisters of Battle(since they were founded, as an organization, quite a bit after the Heresy) had access to them.
But none of those organizations have them.
The Custodes and Inquisition are not Space Marines, so...
Custodes are closer to Space Marines/Primarchs than they are to humanity.
The Inquisition is a law unto itself.
What's your point? That because these two organizations have Land Raiders the AdMech should too?
How about instead of just rebranding yet another old kit for a faction, we get some of that archaic tech that the AdMech have been holding out on us?
Why? Because I want to paint my MkIIB Land Raider in my Metalica colors and insignia and be able to use it for my Fulgurite Priests.
We make the things, we should get to use them!
There's always Open Play for that...
Which is great... until you realize no one does Open Play! My shop is all about that Matched. And I am just as guilty of it myself. I want it official!
I mean, logically there is no reason normal vanguard and ranger squads couldn't be equipped with any special or heavy weapon in the imperium as well, because they mechanicus makes it. They just don't for gameplay reasons and to keep the army from being a slight variation of every other imperial army.
So I really wouldn't expect to ever gain access to rhinos or landraiders anymore than I'd expect rangers and vanguard to be given flamers, heavy bolters and lascannons as options for their special weapons. The mechanicus has better more interesting technology to gift to it's adherents.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/30 17:51:48
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
And who are they in use by?
The Inquisition? The persons who are considered to speak with the voice of the Emperor?
The Custodes? The protectors of the Emperor himself?
It'd be a compelling argument if the Guard or Arbites or the Navy had Land Raiders. It would be more compelling still if the Sisters of Battle(since they were founded, as an organization, quite a bit after the Heresy) had access to them.
But none of those organizations have them.
The Custodes and Inquisition are not Space Marines, so...
Custodes are closer to Space Marines/Primarchs than they are to humanity.
The Inquisition is a law unto itself.
What's your point? That because these two organizations have Land Raiders the AdMech should too?
How about instead of just rebranding yet another old kit for a faction, we get some of that archaic tech that the AdMech have been holding out on us?
Why? Because I want to paint my MkIIB Land Raider in my Metalica colors and insignia and be able to use it for my Fulgurite Priests.
We make the things, we should get to use them!
There's always Open Play for that...
As far as I understand it (and when keywords come into play, that's not very far) you can't do this even in open play. Marine Landy 's can only carry <chapter> infantry, and Custodes Landy's can only carry Custodes infantry.
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MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
And who are they in use by?
The Inquisition? The persons who are considered to speak with the voice of the Emperor?
The Custodes? The protectors of the Emperor himself?
It'd be a compelling argument if the Guard or Arbites or the Navy had Land Raiders. It would be more compelling still if the Sisters of Battle(since they were founded, as an organization, quite a bit after the Heresy) had access to them.
But none of those organizations have them.
The Custodes and Inquisition are not Space Marines, so...
Custodes are closer to Space Marines/Primarchs than they are to humanity.
The Inquisition is a law unto itself.
What's your point? That because these two organizations have Land Raiders the AdMech should too?
How about instead of just rebranding yet another old kit for a faction, we get some of that archaic tech that the AdMech have been holding out on us?
Why? Because I want to paint my MkIIB Land Raider in my Metalica colors and insignia and be able to use it for my Fulgurite Priests.
We make the things, we should get to use them!
There's always Open Play for that...
Which is great... until you realize no one does Open Play! My shop is all about that Matched. And I am just as guilty of it myself. I want it official!
You should try it with those cards they sell. You draw one from each category and end up with really wild rules and deployement zones. It's actually extremely fun to try!
This is what I want, an Onegar Transport. Option for Heavy Stubber on top ans Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters or Cognis Flamers on the front. 10 person transport capacity. Would only require GW to produce one sprue.
SilverAlien wrote: I mean, logically there is no reason normal vanguard and ranger squads couldn't be equipped with any special or heavy weapon in the imperium as well, because they mechanicus makes it. They just don't for gameplay reasons and to keep the army from being a slight variation of every other imperial army.
So I really wouldn't expect to ever gain access to rhinos or landraiders anymore than I'd expect rangers and vanguard to be given flamers, heavy bolters and lascannons as options for their special weapons. The mechanicus has better more interesting technology to gift to it's adherents.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future we get flamers for the Mechanicus.
We have a lascannon equivalent in the form of the Transauranic Arquebi on our foot troops, we don't really have a heavy bolter equivalent(not sure I'd really want one to be honest).
One of the things I was seriously expecting/speculating was that we would see Vanguard and Ranger "special weapon" squads that numbered 4 models and a Skitarii Alpha, toting a dedicated specific special weapon(Arc, Transauranic, or Plasma Caliver) with some kind of special fluffy rule.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The whole restricting Land Raiders to the Astartes was just the justification in the switchover from 1st to 2nd edition. Land Raiders used to be for everyone. It's not current fluff anymore.
Seems to be pretty current fluff since Land Raiders aren't used by everyone.
But they are in use beyond just Astartes, so it appears to have exceptions.
And who are they in use by?
The Inquisition? The persons who are considered to speak with the voice of the Emperor?
The Custodes? The protectors of the Emperor himself?
It'd be a compelling argument if the Guard or Arbites or the Navy had Land Raiders. It would be more compelling still if the Sisters of Battle(since they were founded, as an organization, quite a bit after the Heresy) had access to them.
But none of those organizations have them.
The Custodes and Inquisition are not Space Marines, so...
Custodes are closer to Space Marines/Primarchs than they are to humanity.
The Inquisition is a law unto itself.
What's your point? That because these two organizations have Land Raiders the AdMech should too?
How about instead of just rebranding yet another old kit for a faction, we get some of that archaic tech that the AdMech have been holding out on us?
The archaic stuff is what FW is for, and everyone knows fine-well we're getting a ton of it when Cyraxus drops.
As for why AdMech should get Land Raiders - because they've been depicted using them, most recently in the HH series, and because they sodding *build them*. Is it even remotely plausible to argue on the one hand that the "only Space Marines" thing doesn't have to apply to Inquisitors or Custodes because they're laws unto themselves, but it absolutely should apply to the semi-independent empire that actually build the things and supply them to the Imperium in the first place? I mean if they can manage to "hold out" horrifying twisted Dark Age tech for their armies I don't think running off a couple of extra companies of Raider hulls for their own use is somehow beyond them, or any more likely to result in their censure given a lot of that old Dark Age tech was also banned by Golden Boy.
Personally I'd be happy with Rhinos, but them having Raiders isn't even remotely as implausible or difficult as you're presenting it.
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Debatable, actually. Most Marine Chapters have they own manufacturing capabilities. It's how the Land Raider Crusader came about and why it was Black Templar exclusive until the design was authorized as being official by both Imperial and Mechanicus officials.
Arkhan Land designed it, but evidence points to Marines actually holding the STC construction facilities to build them.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/30 21:47:53
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Debatable, actually. Most Marine Chapters have they own manufacturing capabilities. It's how the Land Raider Crusader came about and why it was Black Templar exclusive until the design was authorized as being official by both Imperial and Mechanicus officials.
Arkhan Land designed it, but evidence points to Marines actually holding the STC construction facilities to build them.
Is that correct? I was under the impression Land Raider Crusaders were simply Land Raiders which were further modified with simple weapons replacements.
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Debatable, actually. Most Marine Chapters have they own manufacturing capabilities. It's how the Land Raider Crusader came about and why it was Black Templar exclusive until the design was authorized as being official by both Imperial and Mechanicus officials.
Arkhan Land designed it, but evidence points to Marines actually holding the STC construction facilities to build them.
Is that correct? I was under the impression Land Raider Crusaders were simply Land Raiders which were further modified with simple weapons replacements.
The problem that comes up with things like the LRC is that you have to remember the Mechanicus are the ones who "approve" something.
Black Templars created the Crusader by basically doing a field refit; the other Chapters saw its effectiveness and eventually it started getting copied and the AdMech basically retconned it in.
Destroyer Tank Hunter->Thunderer Siege Tank is another good example of this. When the Laser Destroyer would be put out of commission, some field workshops would strip them out and replace them with a hull mounted Demolisher cannon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/30 22:00:18
Debatable, actually. Most Marine Chapters have they own manufacturing capabilities. It's how the Land Raider Crusader came about and why it was Black Templar exclusive until the design was authorized as being official by both Imperial and Mechanicus officials.
Arkhan Land designed it, but evidence points to Marines actually holding the STC construction facilities to build them.
Is that correct? I was under the impression Land Raider Crusaders were simply Land Raiders which were further modified with simple weapons replacements.
The problem that comes up with things like the LRC is that you have to remember the Mechanicus are the ones who "approve" something.
Black Templars created the Crusader by basically doing a field refit; the other Chapters saw its effectiveness and eventually it started getting copied and the AdMech basically retconned it in.
Destroyer Tank Hunter->Thunderer Siege Tank is another good example of this. When the Laser Destroyer would be put out of commission, some field workshops would strip them out and replace them with a hull mounted Demolisher cannon.
Equally, the twin lascannon Predator turret was a field refit that saw centuries of field use amongst various Chapters before the Adeptus Mechanicus finished testing, concluding that the "new" design was actually always a part of the design of the Predator, just that no-one had bothered with it before…
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