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Dionysodorus wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Hi, I'll just set up half my units in Deep Strike, nah that's not gamechanging at all (not saying this is a good idea... yet)

You know how strats work right? You cant use the same one more then 1 time in a phase. that's the deployment phase. So you get a single unit...

There's no such thing as a "deployment phase". There's no limitation on the number of times you can use stratagems before the game starts.

Which is why they've had to FAQ stratagems such as 'Relics of the Chapter' and 'Gifts of Chaos' to only work once per battle.

I mean if we're -really- lucky the secutarii alpha will be ported rather than just Peltasts and shield guys.

We don't need a good secondary HQ in the codex if forge world gives us one after all.


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 Ghaz wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Hi, I'll just set up half my units in Deep Strike, nah that's not gamechanging at all (not saying this is a good idea... yet)

You know how strats work right? You cant use the same one more then 1 time in a phase. that's the deployment phase. So you get a single unit...

There's no such thing as a "deployment phase". There's no limitation on the number of times you can use stratagems before the game starts.

Which is why they've had to FAQ stratagems such as 'Relics of the Chapter' and 'Gifts of Chaos' to only work once per battle.

p

Yeah but the question here is if they did so with the Raven guard stratagem. I'm having trouble finding the marine FAQ for some reason.

The forge world of Lucius is renowned for Luciun, a unique alloy known for its durability. Naturally, the armies of Lucius are armed with war-plate and weapons made of Luciun, lending them considerable durability against small-arms fire.

Hahahaha.

RIP GW's creativity.

Hahahaha.

str00dles1 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Hi, I'll just set up half my units in Deep Strike, nah that's not gamechanging at all (not saying this is a good idea... yet)

You know how strats work right? You cant use the same one more then 1 time in a phase. that's the deployment phase. So you get a single unit...

they specifically stated in a FAQ that stratagems that occur before the game starts are exempt from that rule. So yeah, it's any number of units you want.

Is Mars still highly likely to be the best spamming Cawl and shootybots? Yeah, especially with the mars mortal wound stratagem applied to the shootybots rerolling to hit with cawl, that's gonna be pretty dumb.

But a deep striking squad of electropriests drops in and puts 30 s5 hits on whatever it wants, that's pretty tight. are you still paying 120 points to remove 40 points of conscripts from the field? Yyyyyyep. But, and I thought we had learned this from the stupid endless scatbike/WK comparisons in 7th: Not ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING needs to be compared to the most broken, problematic units in the game and held to their standard. Actually using a Mars Cawl shootybot spam list in a normal gaming group will likely just earn you no opponents willing to play you at the end of the day. Lucius is good because it takes a unit, maybe several units, that were previously just shelfwarmers and puts them into possible use in the game. in my eyes, that's great.

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


I legitimately feel like this argument only ever comes from the die-hard Cult Mechanicus players and is quite frankly why we're stuck in this situation where Skitarii players got boned because Cult/War Convocation players complained loudly about "having to buy three codices for one army".

Most people just want to play an Ad Mech army, you know, the faction that has existed in 40K from the beginning. The separation was made for marketing reasons, and you're probably the only person in the world who wholeheartedly bough it.

I sincerely doubt I'm the only person who felt like the Skitarii were a far more compelling faction on their own than just being "cheaper options than Kataphron Battle-Servitors".

Also: Doctrina Imperatives versus Canticles. That was why the separation was made. The mechanics of the army were vastly different.
As I'm sure a well-read Adeptus Mechanicus player like yourself would know, right?

The fiction of 'two separate factions' was so thin, that even the Skitarii starter box includes a cult HQ. Sure, it would have been nice to throw a bone to those people who want to play pure Skitarii (I'm saying 'those' here, but in reality it is probably just you) and include a Skitarii Aplha Primus or some such, but that didn't happen; though it might in the future based on what they said on the subject.

Yeah, it totally was the 'fiction of two separate factions' and not the fact that people like you couldn't seem to be able to understand that you could make an army without needing an HQ choice.


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changemod wrote:
I mean if we're -really- lucky the secutarii alpha will be ported rather than just Peltasts and shield guys.

We don't need a good secondary HQ in the codex if forge world gives us one after all.

Unfortunately, yes we actually do. There are still people who refuse to play/recognize FW stuff as "legal".

 Ghaz wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Hi, I'll just set up half my units in Deep Strike, nah that's not gamechanging at all (not saying this is a good idea... yet)

You know how strats work right? You cant use the same one more then 1 time in a phase. that's the deployment phase. So you get a single unit...

There's no such thing as a "deployment phase". There's no limitation on the number of times you can use stratagems before the game starts.

Which is why they've had to FAQ stratagems such as 'Relics of the Chapter' and 'Gifts of Chaos' to only work once per battle.

Correct, and why other strats that can be used more than once before any battle rounds begin is because they have not been faqed otherwise.

So far all these Dogmas have been extremely cool because they encourage you to play in a lot of different ways. Question is, will it be worthwhile to play those ways? Maybe or maybe not. I still think it's very fun.

So guys Lucius list

Hq
Tp

Supreme heavy whatever
Knight
Knight
Knight

DEATH FROM ABOVE!!!!

 Lord Damocles wrote:

The forge world of Lucius is renowned for Luciun, a unique alloy known for its durability. Naturally, the armies of Lucius are armed with war-plate and weapons made of Luciun, lending them considerable durability against small-arms fire.

Hahahaha.

RIP GW's creativity.

Hahahaha.

Why sir, you've just made me laugh so hard that I dropped my Apple Macbook on the ground and spit out my Mcdonalds Mcnuggets! No planet would be so crass as to name their main monopolized export after the name of the planet, that's terrible uncreative branding! Now I shall need to get some Wet Wipes brand Wet Wipes to clean up the mess!

gendoikari87 wrote:
So guys Lucius list

Hq
Tp

Supreme heavy whatever
Knight
Knight
Knight

Knights won't get FW keyword. At least, not if they are at all sane. Even still, Mars is better because Cawl's re-rolls. A Crusader re-rolling all hits is... well that is just horrifying.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
So guys Lucius list

Hq
Tp

Supreme heavy whatever
Knight
Knight
Knight

Knights won't get FW keyword. At least, not if they are at all sane. Even still, Mars is better because Cawl's re-rolls. A Crusader re-rolling all hits is... well that is just horrifying.

shhhhhh let me dream

 Kanluwen wrote:

Also: Doctrina Imperatives versus Canticles. That was why the separation was made. The mechanics of the army were vastly different.

They were pretty similar. Stuff you used once per turn to gain some bonuses. They just made two different set once they had decided to split the army in two.

Yeah, it totally was the 'fiction of two separate factions' and not the fact that people like you couldn't seem to be able to understand that you could make an army without needing an HQ choice.

Lack of HQ's was super annoying, just as it was with the Harlequins. I'm glad it is gone.

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
So guys Lucius list

Hq
Tp

Supreme heavy whatever
Knight
Knight
Knight

Knights won't get FW keyword. At least, not if they are at all sane. Even still, Mars is better because Cawl's re-rolls. A Crusader re-rolling all hits is... well that is just horrifying.

shhhhhh let me dream

Also illegal list. I refuse to let you have this!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
So guys Lucius list

Hq
Tp

Supreme heavy whatever
Knight
Knight
Knight

Knights won't get FW keyword. At least, not if they are at all sane. Even still, Mars is better because Cawl's re-rolls. A Crusader re-rolling all hits is... well that is just horrifying.

shhhhhh let me dream

Also illegal list. I refuse to let you have this!

gak your right the only way to do it is supreme command detachment....... but that can be arranged


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After all 52 point hqs now

Lucius seems solid. Both the tactic and stratagem are pretty good.

Scratch that how many points would a crusader 5 tpds a tp 2 neutronagers and some robots be? Thinking I'd ds in a crusader and a gaggle of tpds


Also


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Nm forgot it says not itself in small print

Qlanth wrote:
You're just describing the problems with close-combat units. And units who deep strike and hope for a first turn charge. I know you're used to 7e where you got a free bonus to your charges, but now you're more in line with the rest of the game. It's a risk we all have to take when deep striking and charging. Welcome!

There are a lot of units than can semi reliably charge out of deep strike, either due to bonuses on charge rolls or the ability to reroll charges without the stratagem. Not to mention psychic powers like warptime. So... it's not so much he is discounting it due to the edition as the fact none of our units have anything that would make them reliable at charging out of deepstrike.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
How about using one of the most point efficient units in the game - shooty priests to unload 80+ shots into anything you want.

They are very good with deepstrike, but we have to consider how they fit into an army. Is it worth using your entire army as said faction? No, I honestly can't say that it looks that good to me. Is it worth dedicating a formation to? Possibly, but it'll be hard to manage, the CT really isn't much use to anyone so the only thing the faction is good for is deepstriking, and you really have to do that in moderation as we can't formation spam for CP like some factions, even with the HQ changes.

I think it might be useful, in some metas, to run an entire detachment of deepstriking corpus priests. Three units of 10-20 with a dominus means four cp to deepstrike everything and between 500-1000 points. It would be a nasty alpha strike on infantry heavy armies, which is most of them these days.

I think you underestimate just how disruptive deep striking in a couple of full str units of priests will be


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That is a threat that will kill you dead if you do not deal with it

Am I the only that is not feeling the deepstrike possibility? I mean it's game changing but you could just as well get some Infiltrators I suppose.

 Kandela wrote:
Am I the only that is not feeling the deepstrike possibility? I mean it's game changing but you could just as well get some Infiltrators I suppose.

It opens up a few options that look potentially good. We will still need the whole Codex to make a final assessment. I like that I can bring more elements out of deep strike though, because we have such a lack of mobility.

 Kandela wrote:
Am I the only that is not feeling the deepstrike possibility? I mean it's game changing but you could just as well get some Infiltrators I suppose.

infiltrators are really looking to charge corps priests don't need to


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Also ain't gonna lie really hoping knights get keyword forge world because that will be hilarious

An advantage to deep strike that may be overlooked: units off the table cannot be shot at until after they arrive and shoot first. You probably know what your opponents highest priority target will be: keep it safe for a turn or two. That's easily worth a CP, and you have the flexibility to decide before each game.

gendoikari87 wrote:
I think you underestimate just how disruptive deep striking in a couple of full str units of priests will be


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is a threat that will kill you dead if you do not deal with it

I think you over estimate how deadly it will be.

Its really all or nothing. You either get them in, and completely cripple your opponent or its all over.

Its a lot of shots I guess, but its just STR 5 no AP. So maybe you kill lots of conscripts? Or....? Most infantry are in transports. So chances of even killing a rhino is pretty slim. You don't get Wrath of Mars with them sooooooo

Its more options for Admech, but that doesn't means its good. Currently, there really isn't a lot its useful for to dedicate a detachment to.

gendoikari87 wrote:
I think you underestimate just how disruptive deep striking in a couple of full str units of priests will be


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is a threat that will kill you dead if you do not deal with it

It's also not going to take much to deal with. They die pretty easy as full strength unit, around 200 points of basic guardsmen can easily kill the 280 point unit in a single turn for comparison.

They have a lot of firepower, but they really are banking almost entirely on that first turn of shooting.

 Kandela wrote:
Am I the only that is not feeling the deepstrike possibility? I mean it's game changing but you could just as well get some Infiltrators I suppose.

As someone who uses infiltrators a fair amount, corpus priests infiltrating put out around three times as many wounds shooting for the same price. They are also about as tough, a little more normally and against multi damage weapons, but less when cover is taken into account. This also stratagem also encourages large squads of priests who are far more fragile than msu sicarians (or msu priests for that matter).

So there are pros and cons.


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str00dles1 wrote:
Its a lot of shots I guess, but its just STR 5 no AP. So maybe you kill lots of conscripts? Or....? Most infantry are in transports. So chances of even killing a rhino is pretty slim. You don't get Wrath of Mars with them sooooooo

Its more options for Admech, but that doesn't means its good. Currently, there really isn't a lot its useful for to dedicate a detachment to.

It depends, a lot of the strongest army builds spam infantry like conscripts or brimstones, even some ork boyz. Poxwalkers may be popular soon as well. So I wouldn't discount the ability to clear basic infantry.

str00dles1 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
I think you underestimate just how disruptive deep striking in a couple of full str units of priests will be


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is a threat that will kill you dead if you do not deal with it

I think you over estimate how deadly it will be.

Its really all or nothing. You either get them in, and completely cripple your opponent or its all over.

Its a lot of shots I guess, but its just STR 5 no AP. So maybe you kill lots of conscripts? Or....? Most infantry are in transports. So chances of even killing a rhino is pretty slim. You don't get Wrath of Mars with them sooooooo

Its more options for Admech, but that doesn't means its good. Currently, there really isn't a lot its useful for to dedicate a detachment to.

I mean, they do better against Conscripts than just about anything else in an AM army. They're excellent against any sort of infantry with worse than a 2+ save. They do okay against T7/8 3+ vehicles too. They're competitive with neutron laser Dunecrawlers against T7/8 3+, and don't fall too far behind even if the Dunecrawler is near Cawl. And if they pull off a charge they get 60% more S5 hits and then some mortal wounds.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

The forge world of Lucius is renowned for Luciun, a unique alloy known for its durability. Naturally, the armies of Lucius are armed with war-plate and weapons made of Luciun, lending them considerable durability against small-arms fire.

Hahahaha.

RIP GW's creativity.

Hahahaha.

Yes, because no one ever named a new discovery after something else, like themselves, their country or perhaps their planet... of all the things about GW naming conventions to complain about, this is probably the worst.

GW sure is trying really hard to make everyone just play Mars and buy Cawl. These other forgeworld rules are so bad.

 Kirasu wrote:
GW sure is trying really hard to make everyone just play Mars and buy Cawl. These other forgeworld rules are so bad.

/facepalm

Any 100% AdMech army is likely to use one Mars detachment with Cawl and one or two other Forge World detachment[s].

 axisofentropy wrote:
Any 100% AdMech army is likely to use one Mars detachment with Cawl and one or two other Forge World detachment[s].

Yup. Lucius for Deep Striking and whichever one gives the alleged -1 to-hit, provided it stacks on everything (looking at Dragoons). Otherwise... probably go straight Mars most often.