Tor Gaming closing too

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**reds8n**

..apologies if elsewhere ..

https://torgaming.co.uk/

Statement date: Friday 25th August 2017.
Tor Gaming was started back in 2010 with the intention to product the tabletop wargame Relics and with it, bring some originality to your gaming table. We tried to create a world that was distinctly different to what was already being presented from several fronts, and I like to think we managed in this task.
Unfortunately, the last few years have been a difficult trading time for Tor Gaming. Running a business in a niche market is never easy but the gaming industry has become very crowded in the last few years for a number of reasons. As such, I have made the difficult decision to close Tor Gaming and sell off the Relics IP and product range.
The reasons for Tor Gaming closing are many faceted but as I mention above the gaming market is a much more crowded than it was when I started out. The arrival of crowdfunding platforms certainly shook up the industry and made it even easier for new companies to appear and vie for the limited funds our customers have to spend in this hobby of ours. I have made use of them a number of times for Relics and whilst they are good for raising funds I have found each time I ran a project I had a nasty taste in my mouth afterwards.
Coupled with the fact that the traditional ‘distribution model’ of selling product to end users through retailers is a difficult task in this industry as retailers have only so much shelf space and as such are less inclined try out every range that comes along makes continuing to trade in this industry as a producer is difficult.
Over the last couple of years we have seen a steady decline in sales and as such Tor Gaming no longer has the resources to spend on the marketing and advertising required to make our voice heard over all the other voices in this industry. This has ramifications on our ability to develop and produce new products to support the Relics line. We could continue by making use of more crowdfunding projects and moving away from the more traditional ‘distribution model’ for selling but I feel that would be the wrong decision as I am not happy putting the financial risk on to the shoulders of our customers.
It’s been a fun journey but as with all journeys, there has to be an end. For Tor Gaming, that end is here. The journey has been fun and exciting, even frustrating at times. But along the way we have met some great people in this hobby and I am proud to call many of them friends now!
Enquiries
If you wish to contact us about this closure, or you are interested in purchasing the Relics product package and Intellectual property, we invite you to contact us on contact@torgaming.co.uk

Best of luck to all involved

**Piston Honda**

Hot damn.

Who's next?

**ChargerIIC**

Spartan Games just released a closure notice as well. It's not been a good year for anyone outside of GW.

**Desubot**

Did something major happen over there in the UK?

Spartan and now this?

**Piston Honda**

ChargerIIC wrote:
Spartan Games just released a closure notice as well. It's not been a good year for anyone outside of GW.

huh?

what else has happened?

**JamesY**

I have one of their models, but really struggled to buy more from them. I must have tried to buy that stitchpunk football team at least a dozen times, but it was either never available, or no one was carrying it. Shame, as it was a great looking team.

**DarkTraveler777**

The Pound took a hit with Brexit, but otherwise I don't know.

The issue about over saturation of the market is not just a UK thing, so perhaps combined with a lower value of the Pound has put more pressure on UK businesses?

It is a shame about Tor. Their model line was unique and very characterful!

**Huginn**

The pound devaluation could actually help British companies - their product is now cheaper to sell abroad. It would only make their product more expensive if they relied on overseas suppliers for materials/marketing/etc.

If you read the statements, they both point to a glut of companies competing for the gamers' cash. There are just so many around these days, they are not the first and won't be the last to go under.

Sounds like Spartan Games may have bitten off more than they could chew when they took on the Halo license.

**Koppo**

The weak pound has been a positive boon for any company that manufactures locally and exports, such as GW.

I don't know if Tor or Spartan got any traction outside of the UK.

The weak £ would have really hit them hard if they manufactured outside of the UK and sold mainly domestically.

**DarkTraveler777**

Huginn wrote:
The pound devaluation could actually help British companies - their product is now cheaper to sell abroad. It would only make their product more expensive if they relied on overseas suppliers for materials/marketing/etc.

That is a good point, but wouldn't the devaluation also make shipping orders more expensive? I'd imagine for both companies a lot of sales would be to the EU or US and increased shipping would cut into profit margins pretty quickly.

**warboss**

I agree with their owner. There is a downside to the relative explosion of crowdfunding and it's that established companies that can't or won't adapt might suffer. I've never bought anything from them (not my particular cup of tea when it comes to asthetics and theme) but I'm sorry to hear of another shop closing up. I wonder if Mantic will soon follow as I frankly haven't been hearing much buzz about them in over a year (and yes I know they have still been coming out with products but their pace and visibility at least to outsiders like me seems to have slowed).

**timetowaste85**

No intended antagonism intended, but would GW's upswing in recently releasing lots of requested items be detrimental to Tor and other recently closing companies? I mean, GW got a LOT of us started. Getting back to better habits...could cause issues for others.

**Vertrucio**

I saw TOR's miniatures and... well it doesn't compete. It's like how any scifi game out nowadays has to compete with both new GW and Infinity level sculpts. You either meet that quality or go home, as evidenced by Maelstrom's Edge.

Same for Relics in general.

If anything it wasn't GW, it was Malifaux and PP's Grymkin that killed his.

**Aeneades**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Huginn wrote:
The pound devaluation could actually help British companies - their product is now cheaper to sell abroad. It would only make their product more expensive if they relied on overseas suppliers for materials/marketing/etc.

That is a good point, but wouldn't the devaluation also make shipping orders more expensive? I'd imagine for both companies a lot of sales would be to the EU or US and increased shipping would cut into profit margins pretty quickly.

It also made the raw materials for manufacturing more expensive at the same time as some miniature materials have had a separate cost increase so double impact.

**judgedoug**

ChargerIIC wrote:
Spartan Games just released a closure notice as well. It's not been a good year for anyone outside of GW.

It's not been a good year for anyone who doesn't know how to run a business

"industry has become very crowded in the last few years for a number of reasons"

Spartan games said this same lame thing. It's code word for "we don't know how to differentiate our product enough to make it stand out and sell."

**Azreal13**

Aeneades wrote:
DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Huginn wrote:
The pound devaluation could actually help British companies - their product is now cheaper to sell abroad. It would only make their product more expensive if they relied on overseas suppliers for materials/marketing/etc.

That is a good point, but wouldn't the devaluation also make shipping orders more expensive? I'd imagine for both companies a lot of sales would be to the EU or US and increased shipping would cut into profit margins pretty quickly.

It also made the raw materials for manufacturing more expensive at the same time as some miniature materials have had a separate cost increase so double impact.

That's a tiny percentage of the overall cost of the product though, a significant % increase in raw material costs could be easily absorbed by a small increase in wholesale/RRP.

**nicromancer**

It's worth remembering that Tor were still casting in metal.

Metal is expensive as raw materials go.

o cast in it you need vulcanised rubber moulds, which you can either make yourself or have made. Those aren't massivley expensive but they also aren't cheap, And you need one for each figure in your range.

On top of that you're going to need to invest in a spin casting machine.

Add on packaging, shipping, storage, studio paint jobshat you need to stand out , paying to go to shows like salute and you really aren't making alot per mini, A few pence at best.

Now factor in that you're making miniatures with a niche aesthetic and appeal that don't fit with alot of other systems and you'll be cutting it very close to the wire.

And that's without factoring in the actual sculpting costs and time.
It's a shame,, But because of the time investment, this hobby is not hugely profitable on a small scale and I have a feeling that alot of companies probably operate a few quid short of being in the red.

**Huginn**

Vertrucio wrote:
I saw TOR's miniatures and... well it doesn't compete. It's like how any scifi game out nowadays has to compete with both new GW and Infinity level sculpts. You either meet that quality or go home, as evidenced by Maelstrom's Edge.

Maybe. Though there are lots of small companies peddling poor quality sculpts that last years and years. Take a look around the historicals market, little lumps of lead that were sculpted 20 odd years ago, still going strong. You don't necessarily have to have a quality product to survive, just something in vogue.

And the flip side of the coin is you might have the top quality product in the market place, and still go under. Remember Rackham? Their aesthetic was not to all tastes, but they were regarded as among the best in the market for a good few years - one wrong decision and they were history.

**Azreal13**

timetowaste85 wrote:
No intended antagonism intended, but would GW's upswing in recently releasing lots of requested items be detrimental to Tor and other recently closing companies? I mean, GW got a LOT of us started. Getting back to better habits...could cause issues for others.

Well, no other company competes with GW whenever it suits those determined to defend them, so if that's the case, it can't possibly be true that if GW start doing better then other companies suffer, because they're not competing for the same money!

**Elbows**

I have to imagine it's mainly poor business practices. If you have a quality enough product that people want...you will float. If you make poor decisions, or push an IP which simply doesn't catch on - that's not a crowded market. I recognize Tor's miniatures from Relic...and it's pretty obvious a niche...of a niche.

You can love the hell out of your product, but if people aren't interested in it - or you're pandering to a tiny clench-fisted market like hobby wargamers...you should expect serious tough times making a living out of it. It's why even most of the bigger game companies - half of their employees are doing it as an extra or side job.

**judgedoug**

nicromancer wrote:
It's worth remembering that Tor were still casting in metal.

Which is the easiest/cheapest way to manufacture models.

**DrNo172000**

Elbows wrote:
I have to imagine it's mainly poor business practices. If you have a quality enough product that people want...you will float. If you make poor decisions, or push an IP which simply doesn't catch on - that's not a crowded market. I recognize Tor's miniatures from Relic...and it's pretty obvious a niche...of a niche.

You can love the hell out of your product, but if people aren't interested in it - or you're pandering to a tiny clench-fisted market like hobby wargamers...you should expect serious tough times making a living out of it. It's why even most of the bigger game companies - half of their employees are doing it as an extra or side job.

Great products fail all the time in all kinds of sectors, you've got to sell the product actively no matter how great it is. What we are seeing is increased competition thinning out companies who will not or can not do what it takes to compete and differentiate themselves. A successful KS and unique fun to play product aren't enough anymore I suspect.

Also lets not forget the role of plain luck in success, sometimes you can do everything right and still fail (despite what we want to believe about hard work and talent wins the day!). Luck is a fickle and harsh mistress.

**Jon Garrett**

I'd guess Brexit has caused problems with their supplies. It seems to to be the main problem business' over here are having - the dollar and Euro are both strong to the pound, so unless you source locally...

But it's OK guys! We've totally taken our borders back! Sure, immigration is down mostly because immigrants no longer see it as worth coming and we could have put those super important laws in without crippling our economy and throwing away our voice in global politics. But we totally did it!

Unfortunately, we'll probably continue to see this trend. UK companies are gonna take a hammering over Brexit and an uncertain pound. Games Workshop does enough business in America that, unless trade talks go badly (always possible with the Great Orange One in power) they should be fine, but smaller companies are gonna take a spanking.

**nicromancer**

judgedoug wrote:
nicromancer wrote:
It's worth remembering that Tor were still casting in metal.

Which is the easiest/cheapest way to manufacture models.

Easiest yes, If you know how to make a vulcanised mould and operate a spin casting machine.
Cheapest no.
Weight for weight metal costs more than resin.You can get cheap metal sure, but given that most companies want to avoid lead in their figures you end up havinbg to buy high quality casting pewter. In the UK there aren't a huge number of suppliers for this, you're basically buying it from tirantis or prince august. Tirantis is the best quality but is more expensive.
The reason most companies switch from metal to resin was because resin is cheaper.
Resin mould production is far cheaper than metal and doesn't require vulcanisation which makes it quicker.Moulds wear out faster for tough sculpts but a good mould maker can produce a silicone resin mould that will last for 100 pulls before needing to be replaced.
You also need a spin casting machine which ups your intial costs.Eventually this will be paid off but if you're selling niche miniatures to a niche hobby that isn't going to happen fast.

that's all assuming Tor were doing this in house.

**Galas**

A shame, but this is the capitalistic free market.
I don't know if this was a matter of not knowing to run a business because thats not the only factor for a business to success or fail.
But they are just another name in the long list of failed business.

At the end of the day, this is good for us the customers of this industry. Competition, and the fear to go Out of Business makes wonders for how a business interact with his customers.

**Ir0njack**

I had never heard of Tor or their product But Spartan closing don is going to hurt, I just grabbed some more Teutonic Knight for my knightworld Ogryn but I'll still be short one for a full squad which sucks. There also goes my ideas for a couple squads of them *sigh*

**MeanGreenStompa**

I think there is a sandwiching between kickstarters eating money of gamers and the new renaissance of goodwill on both sides with GW, many have returned there or have eaten up months of gaming budget in a couple of kickstarters. We saw a blossoming of smaller indy companies during GW waning, they started waxing again and it's going to hit home.

**Andrew Rae**

nicromancer wrote:
that's all assuming Tor were doing this in house.

I'd doubt they were. There's no need to do so.

**DarkTraveler777**

Well it isn't just a UK thing.

I guess On The Lamb Games is closing down too. https://www.facebook.com/OnTheLambGames/?hc_ref=ARQaL-Uu5XnPHm7vs8n-ok7wApJR1HKgGyI0PW7Jejr-zXno9bKvEpsO4YOin19rk1A&fref=nf

Ten years ago we started On The Lamb. It was an excuse to make the games we wanted to play, and share them with the world. In those ten years we released three games, multiple books, and over a hundred miniatures. We're proud of our games and we're thankful for our family, friends, and fans for supporting us for the last decade.
Unfortunately, this is our goodbye. On The Lamb is closing down, the webstore will be shut off at the end of the year.

gakky week.

**Necros**

Wow 2 in one day .. that's a shame.

Always liked where they were going with their Relics minis. I can say from experience it's incredibly tough to run a gaming biz, especially when you are catering to a niche within a niche within a niche.