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For my Iron Warriors Marines I like the Rhinos, as with Objective Secured, they can more easily hang onto the objectives and get there more safely.

I also like Dreadclaws even though they are very points pricy.
Kharybdises are even better! And especially for Berzerkers. I don't even typically like to deepstrike them but it can be useful for super shooty or assault units that can reroll charges or somehow get close to the enemy after deepstriking (ala Warptime Sorcerer).

Drop Pods for my Grey Hunters have been neutered due to cost and them not being very killy on the drop. And darn it, Dreadnoughts can't even take them anymore :(

But in general I find myself using transports more, but more expensive ones with more guns. They can really tarpit stuff if done rightly. Then again, so can a bunch of giant spawns

 Mezmorki wrote:
Speaking of devastators, why would you ever take them over say a predator? 5 devastators have 5 wounds (instead of 11), 4 toughness (instead of 7). They can only move 6" instead of up to 12". When they take casualties they immediately lose a large part of their firepower. Oh, and the predator isn't that much more expensive either.

Marines can get into cover much more easily than a Predator and since they are only 1 wound each, multiwound guns like lascannons are kinda wasted on Marines. They can also take weapon options not available on the Predator like Plasma and Grav. Swings and roundabouts.

I am still using 3 transports in my 1850 Blood Angels army. Two Rhinos and a Razorback... and they actually get used as transports! Being able to cart around two five man squads each with a special weapon and combi/special pistol on the Sgt's is too valuable to pass up. Marines became more fragile, so getting the weapons that do the most damage to where they are needed is key. I also rarely get to go first, so forcing my opponent to either dedicate a good amount of firepower into dropping that transport to get to the squishy models inside, shooting at one of my Dreadnoughts, or at my Devastators can work in my favor.

If they leave the transport alone, they either get four Melta shots or eight Plasma shots to the face. If they take it out, they then have to chew through the models inside, and they still eat eight Missile Launcher shots or Multi-Meltas (if they are in range).

I'm not seeing any fewer transports, really. Fewer Drop Pods, sure, but not much of an effect on most things. The cover changes have made it easier to footslog, sure, but not enough to make things deployed on the table less dead than they were in 7th.

In a way that's the great triumph of the Primaris; not only are they effective without invalidating standard Marines, they're one of the few things I will actually deploy outside a transport because they take enough effort to get rid of that they aren't just gone instantly.

(And Wraithguard are still too short-ranged and slow to wander about on foot, and the Wave Serpent is still better than either the Falcon or the Fire Prism at being a main battle tank, so...)

If you're curious, the best transport in the game is the repressor.

ERJAK wrote:
If you're curious, the best transport in the game is the repressor.

(Runners-up include the Wave Serpent (still a better battle tank than the battle tanks even hauling a box of twelve dudes), Razorback (wildly efficient gun platform with a cargo bay), and the Venom/Starweaver (absurd and irritating to kill, incredibly fast, and open-topped so your Blasterborn/fusion-pistol clowns don't even need to get out).)

I actually have been considering giving the Chimera a second look after looking at how much firepower it takes to destroy one. It's surprisingly durable outside of really bad rolls.

Of course by itself my opponent has no reason to waste their time shooting at it, but that can be remedied by putting something scary inside. Like plasma command squads.

In terms of just getting the plasma on target, deep striking scions are more efficient of course because they don't have to pay an extra 91 points to drop in rapid fire range of their targets. But if the enemy is shooting at a chimera because they're afraid of its passengers they're not shooting at the rest of my army, and maybe that is worth something all by itself?

All transports are surprisingly durable if not faced with a half dozen krak missiles or lascannons. Generally they're quite survivable, particularly for their points costs.

Also amusing is that it takes an average of pi unsaved wounds from a d6 damage weapon to kill a chimera. (11/3.5=22/7=pi)

My Imperial Guard don't use any transports. If I want units to attack my opponent's backfield, I'll use Scions.

Chimeras are ludicrously expensive, given that their firepower is atrocious (outside of Heavy Flamers - but those bump their already-stupid costs up even more). What's more, someone on the GW design team drank a whole bucket of paint and decided to make both Veterans and SWSs Elites instead of troops. And I have no intention of putting a ~50pt Infantry Squad in a 100+pt Chimera.

Regarding DE, Venoms are garbage now and Raiders are okay, if overpriced. The thing is though, I'd much rather not have to use them at all. Unfortunately, those 2 transports are literally DE's entire claim to being a fast army. If you don't use them then about half your list will be footslogging. Because apparently HQs with Jump Packs, deep-striking Elites and Biker-troops are reserved for 'slow' armies.

Oh, and when everyone else is getting double the firepower from Twin weapons, that upgrade was removed from the Raider. Thanks, GW.

Necrons . . . let's just say I'm grateful that I never bothered investing in Ghost Arks.

 Mezmorki wrote:

Transports are nerfed, relatively, only in the fact that their points went way up for what you're getting.

Some got hit with more than just cost-increased. For example, the DE Venom not only had its cost increased by 50% but also had its only meaningful gun nerfed to hell (+50% cost, -50% shots outside of half-range).

Well, I was thinking 134 points of plasma command squads and an officer (the officer unlocking the second command squad is off commanding some infantry squads somewhere), and it would be not so much striking the backfield as rolling up to the front and finding something expensive-looking to kick in the nads.

Should be enough to draw some ire and put the chimera's stack of T7 wounds to work. And of course hopefully the vets will hop out and delete something at some point. Was thinking of having some searchlights so their plasma can hit on 2+ rerolling 1s, a stunt that is actually unique to them (tempestus can't use searchlights).

Going full glass-cannon alpha strike with scions is probably more efficient over all because the only defense they need is "dead models don't shoot back", but I think the above gimmick might at least be fun to try. And have a bit of a niche for punishing a list that can just barely cover themselves in 9" no-drop zones, but doesn't have enough models to screen a transport rush.

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

 deviantduck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

Holy crap that thing is nuts!

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

Holy crap that thing is nuts!

Less nuts than it sounds, since it's essentially a Rhino with a extra Heavy Flamer. It's also move 10, which cuts a little bit into your vanguard move if you're playing Hammer and Anvil. It doesn't have 9 attacks; it makes 3 to-hit rolls for each attack.

However, it is pretty obviously competing for the title of best transport, thanks to the firepoints. The firepoints do it, because they allow it to actually be useful to us for moving and protecting troops and continue to be useful for moving and protecting troops throughout the game. For shooting armies, most transports are only valuable for resistance to alpha strikes and as cheap platforms for heavy weapons.

The key here is that the best transports are no longer transports. They are tanks.

SMs are using Razorbacks and Storm Ravens, they aren't transporting much if anything, they are just gun platforms.

If you have a transports in your list that isn't crammed with dakka you probably aren't using it.

I don't see Trukkz in use by ork players but I have seen a couple players using Battlewagons, Ironically they are the exception to the rule above. They are taken for the Deff Rolla CC attachment and the fact that they can transport 20 models (still not enough)

I have also seen some competitive lists using the Squiggoth as a transport...kind of. This thing functions in both Dakka and Close combat and has a lot of durability (not enough).

So basically the age of a cheap transport to move models is over, now it HAS TO have guns and a secondary purpose or its useless.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

Holy crap that thing is nuts!

Less nuts than it sounds, since it's essentially a Rhino with a extra Heavy Flamer. It's also move 10, which cuts a little bit into your vanguard move if you're playing Hammer and Anvil. It doesn't have 9 attacks; it makes 3 to-hit rolls for each attack.

However, it is pretty obviously competing for the title of best transport, thanks to the firepoints. The firepoints do it, because they allow it to actually be useful to us for moving and protecting troops and continue to be useful for moving and protecting troops throughout the game. For shooting armies, most transports are only valuable for resistance to alpha strikes and as cheap platforms for heavy weapons.

It moves 12", not 10".
Against INFANTRY units make three hit rolls for each attack rather than one if the Sororitas Repressor has successfully completed a charge this turn.
So it has 3 attacks, unless it's against infantry. Then it's 9. On a 5+, with -1 ap. Which I just noticed...

But yes, it's a Roidrhino.

Honestly, even in 7th I usually played large hordes of boyz - trukk boyz always seemed lackluster.

But this edition? Ork transports are garbage. Their open-topped does NOTHING to help assault now. Zilch.

Being open-topped is situationally nice for shooting units (but you can't overwatch), but generally not worth the 3x price of a trukk. And still, the only reason I ever brought vehicles was because they helped assaulting a bunch.

Battlewagons are a joke. They're about as durable as warbikers. 'Ard case is a decent upgrade, but only for transporting melee units. But I'm more than a little sore that frigging rhinos have a better save and only like 5 fewer wounds than a wagon for about half the cost.

And to be honest, why would I want to pay 90 to 200+ points for a fragile metal box with bad shooting and worse melee when I can pay 62 points for a wierdboy and just jump it?

But yeah, I only take ork transports now if I'm feeling silly. Their only good use is to eat overwatch. If in our codex, ork vehicles get some kind of bonus to charging units (maybe partial movement before disembarking), that MIGHT change, but in the end, I don't think they're ever going to be as effective as wierdboyz.

Bitching about orks aside, I still see marines taking transports, generally, land raiders especially. I don't think I've seen a drop pod once this edition. Wave serpents seem damn good.

What are thoughts about Tankbusta boyz in Trukks? Open-topped and the Trukk provides some protection for the boyz compared to having them in the open.

I dont think the Razorback qualifies as best transport. Its a great vehicle for shooting, but if youre moving it around to transport then that cost efficient shooting is now outside reroll bubbles and -1 to hit.

Im pissed the Rhino lost fire points. Without those it seems too expensive vs the Razor. I get the removal from the simplify the rules perspective, but then fricking FW leaves 6 fire points on that Sister tank? Yeah, Id love Rhinos if they had 6 fire points and optional 1-2 heavy flamers at the same base chasis cost.

bort wrote:
I dont think the Razorback qualifies as best transport. Its a great vehicle for shooting, but if youre moving it around to transport then that cost efficient shooting is now outside reroll bubbles and -1 to hit.

Im pissed the Rhino lost fire points. Without those it seems too expensive vs the Razor. I get the removal from the simplify the rules perspective, but then fricking FW leaves 6 fire points on that Sister tank? Yeah, Id love Rhinos if they had 6 fire points and optional 1-2 heavy flamers at the same base chasis cost.

Repressor isn't the same cost as a Rhino, it's more on par with a Razorback for cost. Considering that the firing points allow it to actually be useful as a transport, well, that makes it a better transport. Razorback is a better vehicle though.

It also specifically has 6 portholes to shoot out of for riot suppression, similar to the Chimera's portholes. The big top hatches that used to be 2fp each are gone on all vehicles, and they need to return.

I only use Rhinos for when I need to transport 10 man squads or 2x5 squads and that's because I don't own a Stormraven. Would love fire points for them but otherwise I always try and fit one in, just in case I need transporting.

Ork Trukks aren't worth it IMO. Tried it with Nobz, tried it with Tankbustas, tried it with Boyz. All of them sucked and there is only one constant between those scenarios.

Not used Rhinos with TS yet but I imagine they'll be the same as my BA in playing, 2x5 man squads that want to be closer (smite and Warpflamer).

For Rhinos for my Iron Warriors troops, is it good to load them up with a Havoc Launcher and combi-bolters? Or should I be taking the Havoc Launcher and combi-something else? Now I'm thinking since I have bolters inside perhaps the combi-plasmas might be better (durable platform and all).

Or is it better to have them cheap as possible without extra weapons? Sure wish they had destroyer blades as a thing still, for assault purposes that would be awesome!

I thought the Repressor was 73pts + guns? Thats basically same as the 70pt Rhino.

But yeah, fire points needed to either be removed everywhere for rule simplicity and costs lowered or 1-2 fps left on the Rhino. I don't think you want any tank too cheap or you'll get some weird parking lot list, so Id rather get the fps back.

bort wrote:
I thought the Repressor was 73pts + guns? Thats basically same as the 70pt Rhino.

But yeah, fire points needed to either be removed everywhere for rule simplicity and costs lowered or 1-2 fps left on the Rhino. I don't think you want any tank too cheap or you'll get some weird parking lot list, so Id rather get the fps back.

Repressor is 71 plus HF and SB (19) for 90.
Sororitas Rhino is 73 plus SB (2) for 75.

 Mezmorki wrote:
What are thoughts about Tankbusta boyz in Trukks? Open-topped and the Trukk provides some protection for the boyz compared to having them in the open.

I use them, 1-2 trukks full of bustas, but only because everything in my lists is embarked on transports, is a biker character or artilley. Decent in these kind of lists but not exceptional.

If you bring trukks in lists with only few hight T models those transports are dead turn 1. And since the greentide is the way to go for orks busta wagons, and vehicles in general, are not that common in competitive games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

bort wrote:
I thought the Repressor was 73pts + guns? Thats basically same as the 70pt Rhino.

But yeah, fire points needed to either be removed everywhere for rule simplicity and costs lowered or 1-2 fps left on the Rhino. I don't think you want any tank too cheap or you'll get some weird parking lot list, so Id rather get the fps back.

Repressor is 71 plus HF and SB (19) for 90.
Sororitas Rhino is 73 plus SB (2) for 75.

In my index SoB stormbolters cost 4 points. Is there a FAQ that reduced them to 2 points like the SM ones?

I play CSM. The rhinos are all in all good choices for many players according to my theorycrafting and mathhammering. There are several reasons, many of which apply in general to some of the other armies:
1) Transport, Rhino in this case, is essentially equally durable as Predator, but much less of a threat to opponent. Put in some killy squad, such as berserkers, then suddenly your cheap rhinos are high priority targets for the opponent. This provides more 'hard' targets for opponent's usually limited AT fire. More available choices for opponent usually equals in more bad choices made.
2) Transports can be deployed defensively as bubblewrap in certain situations when enemy has strong alpha or beta strike ability. Especially CSM Rhino can be kitted out to be quite a little dakkamachine: With Combibolter+Combi-flamer+Havoc Launcher it clocks at 94 pts.
3) Some transports, Rhino certainly, can be deployed to block LoS for enemy to protect your havoc/other shooting squad or atleast force the enemy move before they fire their weapons. You meanwhile remain able to reposition the rhino without moving the squad.
4) Bring down your drop number to increase your chances of going first.

Of course these points don't combine into making Rhino into some magical auto-win unit, but I managed to convince myself with these to order myself a few. I think having a few in my list will provide more flexibility and also cheap hard targets.

For clarification by hard targets I mean any T 7+, W 10+ and save 3+ or better units. Essentially units which require dedicated weaponry used against them as HB and AC spam isnt really optimal way to destroy them.
I myself try to go for 'pure' mechanised MEQ army (as I dislike cultists and hordes, partially for my available hobby time) and for this purpose Rhinos are excellent choices as HB and AC spam are ruthlessly efficient against exposed MEQs.

EDITS: Corrected few grammar mistakes and added one more sentence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Malathrim wrote:
For Rhinos for my Iron Warriors troops, is it good to load them up with a Havoc Launcher and combi-bolters? Or should I be taking the Havoc Launcher and combi-something else? Now I'm thinking since I have bolters inside perhaps the combi-plasmas might be better (durable platform and all).

Or is it better to have them cheap as possible without extra weapons? Sure wish they had destroyer blades as a thing still, for assault purposes that would be awesome!

I think maximum Dakka build (combi-bolter, combi-flamer, havoc launcher) is the way to go, but of course if starved for points these are something to cut. This max. dakka build just gives you more volume of fire against any horde type unit you might face, and this way does give your list more flexibility. I think combi-flamer is best option as to deter charges, and being cheapest, but of course plasma and melta can work. Remember with combi-plasmas that roll of 1 while overcharged will technically blow up your Rhino due to how the rule is worded.

I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

 Blackie wrote:

 pretre wrote:

bort wrote:
I thought the Repressor was 73pts + guns? Thats basically same as the 70pt Rhino.

But yeah, fire points needed to either be removed everywhere for rule simplicity and costs lowered or 1-2 fps left on the Rhino. I don't think you want any tank too cheap or you'll get some weird parking lot list, so Id rather get the fps back.

Repressor is 71 plus HF and SB (19) for 90.
Sororitas Rhino is 73 plus SB (2) for 75.

In my index SoB stormbolters cost 4 points. Is there a FAQ that reduced them to 2 points like the SM ones?

Yes, plus the ones in IA Index were already 2.

Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

Can confirm, I played two Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks yesterday, roasted wolves all over the place.