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nekooni wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

Can confirm, I played two Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks yesterday, roasted wolves all over the place.

How a unit putting only 7 hit (average) could dominate the battlfield ?
I keep seeing people talking about how good flamers are, but with low S, few if any AP, short range and random number of shot, how are these weapons any good ?

I run 3 raiders in my DE list at 1000pts because I can, and I typically fill them with cheap witches and my succubus. Then I take as many cheap kabilite warriors and a cheap archon and just move forward unloading on my opponent as I advance. So far it's worked perfectly because at 1000 pts my opponent can't take out all 3 raiders, and with focusing on pure numbers over quality (warriors vs true born, witches vs blood brides) my opponent really has to make choices on what's a real threat vs what should he try and ignore for a turn.

 godardc wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

Can confirm, I played two Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks yesterday, roasted wolves all over the place.

How a unit putting only 7 hit (average) could dominate the battlfield ?
I keep seeing people talking about how good flamers are, but with low S, few if any AP, short range and random number of shot, how are these weapons any good ?

S5 isn't low strength though - it's almost perfect anti-infantry strength. AP-1 is perfect for taking down random infantry (you'll never "waste" that one AP, it's only in super-rare cases not going to do anything (++ = +; Sv2+ in Cover)).
it averages 7 hits on the move which is one more hit than a Twin Assault Cannon will manage. It wounds on 3s most infantry, same as a Twin Assault Cannon, it's also AP-1 and D1. I can use my Strategam to wound on 2s since I'm playing Salamanders, and having He'stan or an Lt. nearby helps even further. Yes, it trades that for a massively reduced range, but you also gain a pretty potent overwatch AND decent anti-air, too. It's not dominating the battlefield on it's own, but it's a pretty good alternative to a Twin Assault Cannon. The strategem allows the heavy flamers to damage anything on a 4+ or better (there is no T10 unit in the game as far as I know).

Granted, some of these things are exclusive to Salamanders, but it's still a pretty good alternative to Twin Assault Cannons even without those cherries on top.

That being said 2 Razorbacks with Twin Heavy Flamers do not "dominate" a battlefield. They're 10% of a 2000 points army, they do their job and do it pretty well for what they cost.

 deviantduck wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
The Serpent is the best overall transport in the game.

The Serpent is a distant second to the SoB Repressor. You can't argue 1 heavy flamer, 2x storm bolters, T7, 12W, and a 3+/6++ with 3 attacks (9 against infantry) that hit on 5+ at S6... AND you have 6 firing points with the only restriction being the units inside count as being moved. So if the vehicle gets locked assault or falls back from assault, the models inside still get to fire unaltered. It also doesn't hit mid tier until 5 wounds and crap tier at 2.

For 92 pts.

Yep, to bad they dont sell them anymore, but i use immolartors without the tops for them, i did convert one, but its not very well done, i need to try again.

 godardc wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
Try a SOB Repressor packed with flamers. The last time I used two of these bad boys it dominated the field.

Can confirm, I played two Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks yesterday, roasted wolves all over the place.

How a unit putting only 7 hit (average) could dominate the battlfield ?
I keep seeing people talking about how good flamers are, but with low S, few if any AP, short range and random number of shot, how are these weapons any good ?

HF are good, auto hits are nice and S5 -1ap is something, tho they are costly, but on a vehicle with 6 Flamers in it, you can clear Infantry out really fast.

Flamers AUto hits lets you deal with those assassins too and some units that are Hard to hit, there are even a few -2 to hit units.

 godardc wrote:

How a unit putting only 7 hit (average) could dominate the battlfield ?

7 auto hitting shots is as good as 14 shots from a moving BS 3+ vehicle.

As a World Eater player, I typically use 3 Rhinos with Zerkers / Chaos Lords / Kharn in for a few reasons -

1) Deployment drop, can turn 6-8 drops into 3.

2) 3+ armor this edition really isn't what it was, even if I advance turn 1 with them all and I lost all 3 turn 1 It would be worth it to guarantee the turn 2 chargw

Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Can't you drive an Ork Trukk full of boys into a unit (charging them), and then on the next turn disembark the boys? Assuming you have enough space to place them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're not going to get a round of shooting or go very far.

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

The Wave Serpent only has 2 guns, tho 1 is a Twin, its 9 shots.

It also depends, for Aeldari, all armies have some transports, DE have 3-5, Quins have 3-5, Eldar has 1-3 (Tho its just for Turn 1 and they get out right away for Eldar).

If you saw 12 place player with Harlequins, he had 4 Transports.
.
Edit: Spelling

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Aren't Chimeras and Battlewagons both armed transports just like a Razorback or a Land Raider, respectively? Speaking of over-gunned transports - How many Repulsors have you seen? In what way is a Razorback of all things more of a tank than a Battlewagon, or a Chimera?

One of my problems with Guard is that the cost of the transports often does not outweight the cost of the unit transported in them. I have no incentive to transport regular infantry squads at the moment (but I am hoping that the Regiments rules for Steel Legion may alter that!) because they are not that great and I can buy almost 2 more squads for the price of a chimera. Vets aren't too bad but I have had some great success with putting 3 man Bullgryn squads in a chimera with a priest (and maybe I will experiment with a 4th now that I have more) since Bullgryns are stupidly powerful and hard to kill, you really cant argue with 13 Str 7 AP -1 D 2 hits against anything, I wouldnt doubt they could mulch a Knight if they got lucky on the charge! As stated before Tauroxe Primes are way underpriced for their firepower and are far more effective light tanks than they are transports (they should be glass cannons, its very much in their style, I just wish I had an incentive to my scions in them)

 generalchaos34 wrote:
One of my problems with Guard is that the cost of the transports often does not outweight the cost of the unit transported in them. I have no incentive to transport regular infantry squads at the moment (but I am hoping that the Regiments rules for Steel Legion may alter that!) because they are not that great and I can buy almost 2 more squads for the price of a chimera. Vets aren't too bad but I have had some great success with putting 3 man Bullgryn squads in a chimera with a priest (and maybe I will experiment with a 4th now that I have more) since Bullgryns are stupidly powerful and hard to kill, you really cant argue with 13 Str 7 AP -1 D 2 hits against anything, I wouldnt doubt they could mulch a Knight if they got lucky on the charge! As stated before Tauroxe Primes are way underpriced for their firepower and are far more effective light tanks than they are transports (they should be glass cannons, its very much in their style, I just wish I had an incentive to my scions in them)

The only thing I transport in my Guard are Command Squads loaded up with meltas or plasmaguns, backed by a Commander, inside a Valkyrie. everything else has to move under their own power.

nekooni wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Aren't Chimeras and Battlewagons both armed transports just like a Razorback or a Land Raider, respectively? Speaking of over-gunned transports - How many Repulsors have you seen? In what way is a Razorback of all things more of a tank than a Battlewagon, or a Chimera?

I actually have had a lot of fun using my Repulsor, the damned thing is a big box of Dakka, and it keeps my Hellblasters/Captain/Ancient safe from fire. My only issue with it is its a bit pricey and I had to print cards with the weapon names on them for designating fire for my opponents.

nekooni wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Aren't Chimeras and Battlewagons both armed transports just like a Razorback or a Land Raider, respectively? Speaking of over-gunned transports - How many Repulsors have you seen? In what way is a Razorback of all things more of a tank than a Battlewagon, or a Chimera?

A Razorback fires 12 S6 AP -1 shots for about 100 pts, 3+ if stationary, 4+ otherwise. Marines also get reroll auras.

The Chimera fires 6 S5 AP -1 shots at best, 9 if Forgeworld. It gets beat out by the Taurox Prime, which generally can shoot 20 S4 shots and 8 S4 AP -2 shots. Given that 8th flattened the wound chart, once you reach S4+, extra strength generally gives reduced returns compared to better AP mods.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

nekooni wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the only transports I Saw at this latest tournament were basically tanks.

I Saw ZERO Rhinos, I saw ZERO Trukkz, I saw ZERO battlewagonz, I saw ZERO Chimeras.

What I did see plenty of were Razorbacks, that weird Eldar Transport with more guns then my Loota squad and tons of Storm Ravens and Land Raiders and other such "armed" Transports.

My own lists from 7th to 8th went from fielding 3+ trukkz and maybe 3+ Battlewagonz to fielding none.

Transports are just not cost effective anymore as anything beyond a mobile fire magnet/bunker, and the majority are basically functioning as Tanks.

Aren't Chimeras and Battlewagons both armed transports just like a Razorback or a Land Raider, respectively? Speaking of over-gunned transports - How many Repulsors have you seen? In what way is a Razorback of all things more of a tank than a Battlewagon, or a Chimera?

A Razorback fires 12 S6 AP -1 shots for about 100 pts, 3+ if stationary, 4+ otherwise. Marines also get reroll auras.

The Chimera fires 6 S5 AP -1 shots at best, 9 if Forgeworld. It gets beat out by the Taurox Prime, which generally can shoot 20 S4 shots and 8 S4 AP -2 shots. Given that 8th flattened the wound chart, once you reach S4+, extra strength generally gives reduced returns compared to better AP mods.

I am aware of their stats. I wasn't comparing them based on their effectiveness, but on their role on the battlefield. Both are well-armed transports. You're just focussing on one option the Razorback has over the Chimera, while they literally can be equipped with the same primary weapons, too - 2/Twin Heavy Flamers or 2/Twin Heavy Bolters. Yes, the Twin Assault Cannon is probably the best choice, but that's a balance issue.

However I have to disagree on the notion that S4 is plenty enough. S5 is - to me - the most useful strength as it wounds TEQ and MEQ on 3+, not just GEQ. the next real bump is S7, as that's where many vehicles sit at, so you go from 5+ to 4+. S8 and S9 are also important steps as they're allowing to wound regular vehicles on 3+, and even the heaviest on a 4+ or (S9) a 3+ even.

The difference is that the chimera's best (only) options are the same as the razorback's worst options. Twin assault cannons is just better and twin lascannons brings a different capability.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The difference is that the chimera's best (only) options are the same as the razorback's worst options. Twin assault cannons is just better and twin lascannons brings a different capability.

Yes, but it is still an armoured transport. Both are, and both are pretty similar. That was the whole point. And a Razorback surely isn't "more of a tank" than a Battlewagon, even if it is more points-effective. That's all I'm saying.

And technically I think a Chimera could go with 3 Heavy Bolters or 1 Heavy Bolter and an Autocannon, both are decent options.

nekooni wrote:
you'll never "waste" that one AP, it's only in super-rare cases not going to do anything (++ = +; Sv2+ in Cover)

Just wanted to point out, that's not entirely true. Lucius Ad Mech all ignore -1AP as their Dogma ("Chapter Tactic") I'm pretty sure they won't be the only ones to have that rule... wasn't there something in the DG codex that did the same? It's basically a way to give a "more resilient model" that isn't quite as good as +1 to armour.

 Purifier wrote:

nekooni wrote:
you'll never "waste" that one AP, it's only in super-rare cases not going to do anything (++ = +; Sv2+ in Cover)

Just wanted to point out, that's not entirely true. Lucius Ad Mech all ignore -1AP as their Dogma ("Chapter Tactic") I'm pretty sure they won't be the only ones to have that rule... wasn't there something in the DG codex that did the same? It's basically a way to give a "more resilient model" that isn't quite as good as +1 to armour.

yes, but that wasn't public knowledge when I wrote that, was it??

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

I actually like the fact that units can assault on the turn they disembark. Finally my units like Banshees and Wraithblades have a way of reaching the enemy without getting shot to pieces. For me the ability to assault out of Wave Serpents and Rhinos more than covers the loss of being able to disembark after movement.

 Karhedron wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

I actually like the fact that units can assault on the turn they disembark. Finally my units like Banshees and Wraithblades have a way of reaching the enemy without getting shot to pieces. For me the ability to assault out of Wave Serpents and Rhinos more than covers the loss of being able to disembark after movement.

Armies that could assault after disembarking in 7th are almost crippled by the new rule. In fact orks play footsloggers almost everytime, while one the major complain about 7th was about our vehicles being paper things, now they're more resilient but the new mechanic discourage to play embarked assault units. Same for DE, they were better before, now you risk a turn in the open if you want to assault.

 Blackie wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

I actually like the fact that units can assault on the turn they disembark. Finally my units like Banshees and Wraithblades have a way of reaching the enemy without getting shot to pieces. For me the ability to assault out of Wave Serpents and Rhinos more than covers the loss of being able to disembark after movement.

Armies that could assault after disembarking in 7th are almost crippled by the new rule. In fact orks play footsloggers almost everytime, while one the major complain about 7th was about our vehicles being paper things, now they're more resilient but the new mechanic discourage to play embarked assault units. Same for DE, they were better before, now you risk a turn in the open if you want to assault.

Things that used to be assault vehicles still could be, if they allowed for movement, and assault out of the vehicle in the assault phase. I understand that move->disembark->assault made for a REAAALLY long potential charge in 8th, but why not just say that an assault vehicle moves and then you measure charge as if it was the vehicle charging, letting the inhabitants charge straight out of it?

 Purifier wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I think the "disembark before movement" thing has ruined transports for transporting things. They still remain the best battle tanks though, in most factions.

I actually like the fact that units can assault on the turn they disembark. Finally my units like Banshees and Wraithblades have a way of reaching the enemy without getting shot to pieces. For me the ability to assault out of Wave Serpents and Rhinos more than covers the loss of being able to disembark after movement.

Armies that could assault after disembarking in 7th are almost crippled by the new rule. In fact orks play footsloggers almost everytime, while one the major complain about 7th was about our vehicles being paper things, now they're more resilient but the new mechanic discourage to play embarked assault units. Same for DE, they were better before, now you risk a turn in the open if you want to assault.

Things that used to be assault vehicles still could be, if they allowed for movement, and assault out of the vehicle in the assault phase. I understand that move->disembark->assault made for a REAAALLY long potential charge in 8th, but why not just say that an assault vehicle moves and then you measure charge as if it was the vehicle charging, letting the inhabitants charge straight out of it?

If I can move the vehicle, disembark and charge I can get into assault almost for sure. Otherwise If the vehicle moves and I can't assault the crew will likely remain inside it, letting the enemy unit move away. Which means a really long charge that can be easily failed. If you charge with the vehicle and the crew embarked only the vehicle is allowed to fight and tipycally vehicles are useless in combat, they just act as tarpits.

I've tried rhinos and they were pretty worthless, tried razorbacks last night wasn't wow'd.

 Blackie wrote:


If I can move the vehicle, disembark and charge I can get into assault almost for sure. Otherwise If the vehicle moves and I can't assault the crew will likely remain inside it, letting the enemy unit move away. Which means a really long charge that can be easily failed. If you charge with the vehicle and the crew embarked only the vehicle is allowed to fight and tipycally vehicles are useless in combat, they just act as tarpits.

I'm not sure if you realise I was not talking about how it is, but a wishlisting on how I think assault vehicles should have still had an edge against non-assault vehicles.

nekooni wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The difference is that the chimera's best (only) options are the same as the razorback's worst options. Twin assault cannons is just better and twin lascannons brings a different capability.

Yes, but it is still an armoured transport. Both are, and both are pretty similar. That was the whole point. And a Razorback surely isn't "more of a tank" than a Battlewagon, even if it is more points-effective. That's all I'm saying.

And technically I think a Chimera could go with 3 Heavy Bolters or 1 Heavy Bolter and an Autocannon, both are decent options.

But it is. The difference between a tank and a transport is effective weapons. An up-gunned battlewagon just isn't as as good as a TwnAC or TwnLC razorback.

Lets take a T7 3+ target with the shooting vehicle moving.

Killkannon - avg wounds 0.39. 82% of the time it does nothing.
Kannon - avg 0.26 wounds. 93% of the time it does nothing.

Compared to
Twn LC - avg 2 wounds. 52% of the time it does nothing
TwnAC - avg 1 wounds - 35% of the time it does nothing

How can a battlewagon be considered a tank when 90% of the time it won't inflict a single wound on another tank? It's a transport that you can, if you're foolish, give some completely useless guns to. Razorbacks at least have sufficient damage output to be useful.

Razorback to chimera isn't nearly as big a difference but the the Taurox Prime is just utterly superior to the Chimera.

 Blackie wrote:

If I can move the vehicle, disembark and charge I can get into assault almost for sure. Otherwise If the vehicle moves and I can't assault the crew will likely remain inside it, letting the enemy unit move away. Which means a really long charge that can be easily failed. If you charge with the vehicle and the crew embarked only the vehicle is allowed to fight and tipycally vehicles are useless in combat, they just act as tarpits.

You are assuming a long flat board and no movement penalties. Frequently if the enemy moves away from you, they will be at a disadvantage. Heavy weapons will be at -1 to hit. They may be moving away from cover or objectives they need to hold. Granted some units may not suffer from backing away from your transport but even they will run out of board to back away onto after a turn or so. On a 6x4 board, backing away from an approaching transport will likely only work once, particularly if you have multiple transports approaching.

If the enemy is simply reacting to your moves instead of choosing his own, you are dictating the terms of the battle and that can be a big advantage in itself.

I think the bigger transports like Land Raiders and Storm Wolves are now much better than in 7th.
I'll be using a Crusader with 2 small squads and a jump character inside in a small tournament tomorrow. I'm really anxious to see how it works out.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
One of my problems with Guard is that the cost of the transports often does not outweight the cost of the unit transported in them. I have no incentive to transport regular infantry squads at the moment (but I am hoping that the Regiments rules for Steel Legion may alter that!) because they are not that great and I can buy almost 2 more squads for the price of a chimera.

This is a big concern for me as well. Right now there is very little incentive to use chimeras because the units being transported might as well use "Move,move,move" & use the extra points for more infantry. Chimeras needed a points reduction in 7th edition & instead got an increase in points, now suffer -1BS, lost rear firing ports, lost amphibious rule, lost command vehicle rule. They are so bad I have to believe this was an oversight. No one in their right mind is going to field them like this. Even if they negated the -BS & other losses, it still would need a hefty points reduction. As it stands, if they are not fixed in the codex we likely won't be seeing them for at least a couple years on the tabletop.

A bunch of recent comments suggest this to me:

#1) Good cover and terrain rules are needed. Terrain, in particular the need for LoS blocking (and the general lack thereof) and better rules about getting cover / intervening cover, is needed. Ideally, this should be coupled to movement penalties for difficult ground. As a poster said, trying to flee from an imminent charge should have some risk that moving back through cover might slow you down (and likewise might slow the charging unit).

#2) Vehicles should be able to leave wrecks and block LoS and/or provide cover as an intervening unit. Rhinos (or Trukks more likely) would be more useful if the squad hiding in them, upon having the trukk blown up, weren't immediately stuck in the open but could get some cover around the vehicle.