Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Dakka;

Lets talk Razorbacks.
Assuming that you want to upgrade past the default 6 S5 AP-1 D1 shots:

Twin Lascannon swings at 2 S9 AP-3 Dd6 shots.

Twin Assault Cannon swings at 12 S6 AP-1 D1 shots.

The Assault cannon is the obvious choice over the Heavy bolters... but why don't more people take the twin las?

An average marine army includes 3/4 Razorbacks these days, 3 for sake of argument.

In an army where our infantry are the best equipped to go toe-to-toe with other infantry units, is

36 S6 AP-1 D1 really a better choice than 6 S9 AP-3 Dd6? I know volume of fire has its place? but I guess it depends what you want from the tank?

-1 to hit on average reduces the AssaultBack to 6 hits
-1 to hit on average reduces the LasBack to 1 hit

I have both turret options, and 3 razors.
What do people think? in a semi-comp environment what's nastier??

GamerGuy

you don't need las cause ac are allready enough with all the re-rolls from girlyman.

It depends on what you need more, anti infantry or anti tank weapons. With my SW I lack ranged anti infatries for example, as the only decent option available is wolf guard bikers, that's the reason I usually bring 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons. I like long fangs and they're my ranged anti tank.

If you need more high S shots the twin lascannons razorbacks would work well for you. But the twin assault cannons loadout is the most effective option availbe.

If you rely on guilliman's re-rolls the twin assault cannon is even better and overshines the other option completely since you'll end up with tons of wounds caused.

A 360point Mary Sue isn't my idea of a wargame...

aside from girlyman?

Another big reason is because you can take Lascannons on other platforms, like Dev squads or Predators.
Assault cannons have fewer platforms and only the Razorback is ideal for them. Terminators are sadly never ideal and Dreads are likewise too slow (and honestly dual twin autocannons are a better choice for them). Razorbacks can get into position in 1 turn, making the short range of the Assault cannons mostly irrelevant.

Personally, I like using Twin Las on my Razorback, but I only have 1000pts of Marines with 1 tank, 1 Dread and various marines that we use as Primaris for my games at home with my boys.
In a larger meta, Twin Assault cannons are just the logicaly choice for Razorbacks.

-

 GamerGuy wrote:
A 360point Mary Sue isn't my idea of a wargame...

aside from girlyman?

A cheap Captain/Lieutenant or Salamander CT do the job fine as well.

 JohnU wrote:

 GamerGuy wrote:
A 360point Mary Sue isn't my idea of a wargame...

aside from girlyman?

A cheap Captain/Lieutenant or Salamander CT do the job fine as well.

A Captain and Lt cost, aprox 150 points with no upgrades. Not quite exact numbers as I dont have my index in front of me atm. They will do the job well enough, for less than half of Roboutes cost. It's only rerolling 1's to hit, however. It's not as ideal as using Roboute to buff up a high volume shooting list, as Roberts aura scales much better with the Wounding reroll. The difference between rerolling just 1's, and rerolling 1-4's is pretty huge.

It's a cheaper alternative, and less Mary Sue-y, but it's not nearly as effective. If you do run a No-Robert Razorback fire base, I would recommend the Lascannons as it will do better against Armour. But obviously less flexible than rerolling all wounds Assault Cannons.

JohnU -Does Chapter Tactics apply to the Razors? I thought it didn't apply to vehicles?

but otherwise points taken; cheers Gents!

GamerGuy

 GamerGuy wrote:
JohnU -Does Chapter Tactics apply to the Razors? I thought it didn't apply to vehicles?

but otherwise points taken; cheers Gents!

GamerGuy

No, you're right. It's early.

 GamerGuy wrote:
A 360point Mary Sue isn't my idea of a wargame...

aside from girlyman?

I play SW which means no guilliman. But 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons are still auto includes

If you want to move models around take the Rhino with 2 Storm Bolters, your opponent will be surprised by the dakka in rapid fire range and it's less likely to get targeted/charged.
If you want Razorbacks keep them still with some rerolls in range, and then redo the list with Predators, same hull

A mix of them is very competetive.
As you usually have the first turn so TLLC-RB can neutralize enemy AT-units on long range and with that increasing your life span of your RBs.
And no you don´t need the Primarch. Take a Captain and make him to a chapter master via stratagem for 3 CP. Re-rolling all failed to hits. The Lieutenant let you only re-roll 1s but with a wise choice of targets you always wound on 3s, thus loosing only on rolls of 2.
But for less than half the Primarch costs. Leaving points for another RB.

I am of the opinion that Razorbacks are only if you want to haul stuff with them... or if you are avoiding Forgeworld. Tarantula Turrets are my favorite Assault Cannon platform, and Mortis Contemptors are amazing for Lascannons. That argument aside... Assault Cannon Razorbacks do something that is hard in a Space Marine list. They output enough anti-infantry firepower to actually beat an equal number of points in enemy infantry, or at least as close as anything else we have. Add to this with a unit inside and you can really react well to enemy movement. I typically will be running around 6 Lascannons in Dev Squads, and usually also have a unit of Hellblasters so I am not worried so much about more anti-tank/monster, and worry more about Infantry. Assault Cannons are also passable at killing any tank/monster that isn't a Land Raider or Knight.

 Captain Garius wrote:
Assault Cannons are also passable at killing any tank/monster that isn't a Land Raider or Knight.

With the new Damage chart, ACs are just as good against Knights as they are against Dreads, Preds etc. S6 wounds both T7 and T8 on a 3+ so ACs are worth taking pot-shots with at big game.

No love for the Las/Plas razorbacks anymore? I like them for a good all rounder that gets tanks at range and can clear out some more armor and heavy infantry up close, and all for cheaper than the twin las

I'd like to know if they're any good - I have three converted ones from back in 5th!

Overchaging the plasma still kill them outright? (on a 1)

 Karhedron wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
Assault Cannons are also passable at killing any tank/monster that isn't a Land Raider or Knight.

With the new Damage chart, ACs are just as good against Knights as they are against Dreads, Preds etc. S6 wounds both T7 and T8 on a 3+ so ACs are worth taking pot-shots with at big game.

Umm, Str 6 wounds T7/T8 on a +5.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Captain Garius wrote:
Assault Cannons are also passable at killing any tank/monster that isn't a Land Raider or Knight.

With the new Damage chart, ACs are just as good against Knights as they are against Dreads, Preds etc. S6 wounds both T7 and T8 on a 3+ so ACs are worth taking pot-shots with at big game.

That is true, but I included the Knight and Land Raider for two different reasons. The Knight because it has so many wounds you need something other than AC's to kill it, and the Land Raider because it still gets a 3+ save after you wound on 5's.

 Nevelon wrote:
Overchaging the plasma still kill them outright? (on a 1)

I suspect I won't be over charging them then! I guess the normal fire mode is passably good, and a bit cheaper than double lascannon

 Thadin wrote:

 JohnU wrote:

 GamerGuy wrote:
A 360point Mary Sue isn't my idea of a wargame...

aside from girlyman?

A cheap Captain/Lieutenant or Salamander CT do the job fine as well.

A Captain and Lt cost, aprox 150 points with no upgrades. Not quite exact numbers as I dont have my index in front of me atm. They will do the job well enough, for less than half of Roboutes cost. It's only rerolling 1's to hit, however. It's not as ideal as using Roboute to buff up a high volume shooting list, as Roberts aura scales much better with the Wounding reroll. The difference between rerolling just 1's, and rerolling 1-4's is pretty huge.

It's a cheaper alternative, and less Mary Sue-y, but it's not nearly as effective. If you do run a No-Robert Razorback fire base, I would recommend the Lascannons as it will do better against Armour. But obviously less flexible than rerolling all wounds Assault Cannons.

It's 134.

That's cheap as chips.

Also, the term mary sue isn't a catch all for things people like. It's a specific literary term. G man is clearly unbalanced. He's not a mary sue because his point cost is off.

Razorbacks with twin assault cannons are an obvious choice if you want an all-comer list.
But they come with a troop tax. Never thought that I say this.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons are an obvious choice if you want an all-comer list.
But they come with a troop tax. Never thought that I say this.

Not even a troop tax, just a unit tax. Each non-transport unit in the army entitles you to a Transport. Even a Land Raider unlocks a Razorback for you, odd though it seems.

 Karhedron wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons are an obvious choice if you want an all-comer list.
But they come with a troop tax. Never thought that I say this.

Not even a troop tax, just a unit tax. Each non-transport unit in the army entitles you to a Transport. Even a Land Raider unlocks a Razorback for you, odd though it seems.

You can take it to the extremest.
But makes not much sense.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons are an obvious choice if you want an all-comer list.
But they come with a troop tax. Never thought that I say this.

Not even a troop tax, just a unit tax. Each non-transport unit in the army entitles you to a Transport. Even a Land Raider unlocks a Razorback for you, odd though it seems.

You can take it to the extremest.
But makes not much sense.

Im with wuestenfux, you gotta put something in those razorbacks, even a 5man tact squad

Edit: I also just noticed that Las-Plas was dropped out of the new codex, im guessing you can get it in FW?

The Index entry for Lasplas is still valid. The main problem with it is that it is far too risky to overcharge.

It's only a problem if you feel it is a requirement to over charge all the time. It's just an option for those rare game on the line kind of situations. It's meant to be risky.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Razorbacks with twin assault cannons are an obvious choice if you want an all-comer list.
But they come with a troop tax. Never thought that I say this.

Not even a troop tax, just a unit tax. Each non-transport unit in the army entitles you to a Transport. Even a Land Raider unlocks a Razorback for you, odd though it seems.

You can take it to the extremest.
But makes not much sense.

Im with wuestenfux, you gotta put something in those razorbacks, even a 5man tact squad

Edit: I also just noticed that Las-Plas was dropped out of the new codex, im guessing you can get it in FW?

It's in the Index, so you can still take it.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It's only a problem if you feel it is a requirement to over charge all the time. It's just an option for those rare game on the line kind of situations. It's meant to be risky.

Problem is that the balance was costed with 1w models firing 1-2 shots in mind. On a Razorback, you've got greater than 50% odds of getting hot, and will lose a 10w model.