Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Our meta is so competitive they bubble wrap their Gulliman net lists with the absolute bare minimum to say he is behind them to maximise his bonus and the cheese. When I fought him he was basically blobbed up and surrounded and effectively invincible since he had so much ablative wounds from the things surrounding him. .

Yet another reason to stick with 3rd Edition. Seriously, the only thing I'm missing out on is any unit created after 3rd, but I can live with that.

ERJAK wrote:

Ruin wrote:
Oh sweet summer children...

You say this now, but there's a reason PP brought in the limitation on widgets et al in the latest Steamroller. I'll give this about 6 months until 40kers change their tunes.

We've had pre-measuring for since...4th? 5th? It's never been a problem, so we'll probably be fine there sport.

For the record, 5th edition was the last edition to forbid pre-measuring.

And yes, that rule was scrapped for 6th because it's utter trash.

IIRC our local GW bid farewell to 5th by having a contest where people guessed the distance between a fixture in the shop and a baneblade on a shelf.

To be fair I got incredibly good at measuring 48" with my eyes thanks to 40k. I could do it within an inch back in the day....

But as for the other part of this conversation yeah that's annoying but it's also allowed. We had a game in the local game group that got a player kicked out of the store recently because he deployed his guys 13" away deep striking, but claimed as he placed them they were 10" to get rapid fire then during the next turn pointed out that they were too far away to be charged when his opponent moved 6" then charged on a roll of 5. The store owner caught him (3rd time this month said person had pulled some sort of shenanigans saying one thing and doing another to his advantage) and the owner told him to pack his stuff up, he is giving the store a bad rap for cheating players. I would have felt bad for him except his argument as to why it was not cheating / OK was it's not his fault his opponent didn't double check his range.

My point is if the worst you get is people being specific about their deployment it could be worse.

nekooni wrote:
The only thing I dislike when it comes to distances is the combat phase. You charge, get within 1 inch of the target unit, lets say a Land Raider. Now on the pile-in you move almost three inches along the side of the land raider and 0.1 inch closer to the Land Raider. You can repeat this as often as you like, just claim you're moving 0.01 inches closer to the LR each time.

I get that it's legal, but it's incredibly annoying.and just feels wrong.

I do that all the time. It is perfectly legal and is a good way of engaging units without triggering overwatch. You charge one unit, and then use the charge move to move some models close to some other enemy units, and then pile into them in the fight phase. You can also easily use the consolidation move to wrap around the rear of the transport, so he cannot fall back. And if you have enough boyz (around 20-22), you can completely block his disembark zone, and when the transport blows up all the passengers are auto-slain.

In one game I pile-inned + consolidated two full squads of boyz from mid-table, where they had charged a chimera, all the way to his deployment zone forming two ridiculous conga-lines that was invulnerable to shooting. The chimera survived the battle.

Another neat trick is when you have a short charge range against a deep-striker, then you use the excess charge result to move models far beyond the declared target, so that they are closer to his backfield units. Then in the fight phase you get +6" of movement. You can cover a lot of distance by using charge + pile-in + consolidate as movement boosters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Our meta is so competitive they bubble wrap their Gulliman net lists with the absolute bare minimum to say he is behind them to maximise his bonus and the cheese. When I fought him he was basically blobbed up and surrounded and effectively invincible since he had so much ablative wounds from the things surrounding him. .

Sounds like his chaff would have a hard time falling back legally, creating a huge opportunity for an assault.

ERJAK wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The only thing I dislike when it comes to distances is the combat phase. You charge, get within 1 inch of the target unit, lets say a Land Raider. Now on the pile-in you move almost three inches along the side of the land raider and 0.1 inch closer to the Land Raider. You can repeat this as often as you like, just claim you're moving 0.01 inches closer to the LR each time.

I get that it's legal, but it's incredibly annoying.and just feels wrong.

If you pile the land raider in you can stop them from moving. Not a great solution but remember, can't get closer than base to hull.

Can't do that if there's even one model in base contact already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The only thing I dislike when it comes to distances is the combat phase. You charge, get within 1 inch of the target unit, lets say a Land Raider. Now on the pile-in you move almost three inches along the side of the land raider and 0.1 inch closer to the Land Raider. You can repeat this as often as you like, just claim you're moving 0.01 inches closer to the LR each time.

I get that it's legal, but it's incredibly annoying.and just feels wrong.

I do that all the time. It is perfectly legal and is a good way of engaging units without triggering overwatch. You charge one unit, and then use the charge move to move some models close to some other enemy units, and then pile into them in the fight phase. You can also easily use the consolidation move to wrap around the rear of the transport, so he cannot fall back. And if you have enough boyz (around 20-22), you can completely block his disembark zone, and when the transport blows up all the passengers are auto-slain.

In one game I pile-inned + consolidated two full squads of boyz from mid-table, where they had charged a chimera, all the way to his deployment zone forming two ridiculous conga-lines that was invulnerable to shooting. The chimera survived the battle.

As I said: I get that it's legal. I still don't have to like it, do I?

What you pulled of there is exactly why I think it's wrong. You might find it awesome and fun, but it's just annoying to the other side. unengaged units should be able to overwatch when you charge them.

Yea I pre measure stuff, makes it easier for me and saves me time.

ERJAK wrote:

Ruin wrote:
Oh sweet summer children...

You say this now, but there's a reason PP brought in the limitation on widgets et al in the latest Steamroller. I'll give this about 6 months until 40kers change their tunes.

We've had pre-measuring for since...4th? 5th? It's never been a problem, so we'll probably be fine there sport. It's a problem in Warmachine because extremely, laser pointer precise movement is in the rules and in the community bylines. Warhammer doesn't even have facings.

Sidebar, I don't think there's anything Warmachine is less 'sweet summer child' in than 40k. Where you're going, we've already been.

Really?

I was there and I prefer no pedantic premeasuring as seems to be in vogue today.
I know that people complain that opponents would lay their rulers down and pretend to be doing something else just to get a peek at a distance and that it penalized newbs who couldn't eyeball distances as well but there was also a SPORTSMANSHIP dimension that was EXPLICIT in tournament scoring so that sort of cheatie style never worked out for anyone but backroom bullies. Now we have list builders math hammering everything to death with the presumption that they can take a day to measure to the millimeter and that whole attitude just sucks the life out of ... Everything.

The people playing other systems prefer NOT to do business this way, though it seems to suit a certain sort of person and that has nothing to do with where they have been and less to do with where you say that "we" have been and everything to do with where they want to be, and they don't want to share a table with premeasuring pedants. Me neither. Might as well put a grid on the table top the way that things are going in warhammer land.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The only thing I dislike when it comes to distances is the combat phase. You charge, get within 1 inch of the target unit, lets say a Land Raider. Now on the pile-in you move almost three inches along the side of the land raider and 0.1 inch closer to the Land Raider. You can repeat this as often as you like, just claim you're moving 0.01 inches closer to the LR each time.

I get that it's legal, but it's incredibly annoying.and just feels wrong.

If you pile the land raider in you can stop them from moving. Not a great solution but remember, can't get closer than base to hull.

Can't do that if there's even one model in base contact already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The only thing I dislike when it comes to distances is the combat phase. You charge, get within 1 inch of the target unit, lets say a Land Raider. Now on the pile-in you move almost three inches along the side of the land raider and 0.1 inch closer to the Land Raider. You can repeat this as often as you like, just claim you're moving 0.01 inches closer to the LR each time.

I get that it's legal, but it's incredibly annoying.and just feels wrong.

I do that all the time. It is perfectly legal and is a good way of engaging units without triggering overwatch. You charge one unit, and then use the charge move to move some models close to some other enemy units, and then pile into them in the fight phase. You can also easily use the consolidation move to wrap around the rear of the transport, so he cannot fall back. And if you have enough boyz (around 20-22), you can completely block his disembark zone, and when the transport blows up all the passengers are auto-slain.

In one game I pile-inned + consolidated two full squads of boyz from mid-table, where they had charged a chimera, all the way to his deployment zone forming two ridiculous conga-lines that was invulnerable to shooting. The chimera survived the battle.

As I said: I get that it's legal. I still don't have to like it, do I?

What you pulled of there is exactly why I think it's wrong. You find it awesome and fun, but it's just annoying to the other side. unengaged units should be able to overwatch when you charge them.

Agree completely here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Tony wrote:
Yet another reason to stick with 3rd Edition. Seriously, the only thing I'm missing out on is any unit created after 3rd, but I can live with that.

Why stop there? Second with house rules remains best IMO.

2nd Edition was so good that, when faced with scrapping it or updating it, they chose to scrap it completely. There was a reason for that. I seriously haven't had a single pleasurable 2nd Edition experience, and I doubt I ever will. It sucked bad enough that I sat out most of its run and almost didn't start 3rd because of how bad it sucked. I still see blind grenades and Terminator Librarians with Displacer Fields in my sleep.

2nd worked fine for games with a reinforced platoon per side. The problem was all the players who wanted to play games with a company per side. That's why we got 3rd edition.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
2nd worked fine for games with a reinforced platoon per side. The problem was all the players who wanted to play games with a company per side. That's why we got 3rd edition.

Yep.
As the genre transitioned from use all your collected RPG models to collect all our proprietary models.
From play with friends to pay to win.

Pre-measuring is IMO better than disallowing it and then having guys pre-measure anyway by pulling out their measure to 24 or 36 inches when possibly moving. They'd get a good idea about shooting and charge ranges like that, and if you objected you were the bad guy.

I'd rather have slightly slower and more precise movement in the relevant phase, than more bickering as to whether a gun is or isn't in Rapid Fire range.

Overall though I prefer the happy medium. Stupidly precise movement can work ok when using a small, elite army (really won't take long with say, Thousand Sons) but she someone is micromanaging movement for an Orky infantry army? Not so much.

Here's the thing:

The only time I can see pre-measuring mattering is when you're setting up charges. It's also generally pretty easy to guess weapon ranges, since weapon ranges are mostly in 6" increments and the board is neatly divided into 6 24" by 24" tiles. There is a grid on the tabletop.


I don't think pre-measuring or lack thereof makes the game particularly more tactical, or adds anything to the game in any way. Since it's going to happen anyway and it's basically irrelevant except in the edge case scenario of trying to make a long-distance charge, why bother trying to make a whole fuss about banning it.

Depends on the board though.

Realm of Battle or similar modular system, you're quite right of course.

Home made, not so much.

I wonder would this rule help: "when measuring always measure in to within half an inch roundin up. If the result is the same the models count as being equidistant for rules purposes".

THis couls help speed up games/ cut down some of the most ridiculou crap I feel.

Earth127 wrote:
I wonder would this rule help: "when measuring always measure in to within half an inch roundin up. If the result is the same the models count as being equidistant for rules purposes".

THis couls help speed up games/ cut down some of the most ridiculou crap I feel.

It wouldnt, for 2 reasons.c you can move at angles to achieve the same thing, and in doing so you slowed the game down even more than it currently is, b.c now players will move up 5 1/2" then 1/2" at the angle they want to get the 1mm away thing.

The point of tactical movement if to have a good position for you but out position your opponent, when playing with 40-200 models it will take time and some armies like DW and Quins really need to play the movement game to be effective.

Reason 2) Terrain would have to be regulated size, you will over move out of terrain time to time and many vehicles/units wouldnt be able to move with them, behind, in and out as easily.

 jeff white wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Might as well put a grid on the table top the way that things are going in warhammer land.

Personally, if there was a way to do this in an aesthetical and practical way I'd be all up for it. I find the idea that you can attempt to fire on a unit and utterly fail because you misjudged the range by an inch ridiculous, and personally prefer the added time checking distances to prevent that scenario. Each to their own of course.

I also play a little Malifaux, and which full on grids aren't used, it's very common to have play mats that have deployment zones and objective related distances marked out. These mats generally do a very good job of blending the markings into the printed terrain so it doesn't detract from the aesthetic of the battlefield.

Stux wrote:

 jeff white wrote:
Might as well put a grid on the table top the way that things are going in warhammer land.

Personally, if there was a way to do this in an aesthetical and practical way I'd be all up for it. I find the idea that you can attempt to fire on a unit and utterly fail because you misjudged the range by an inch ridiculous, and personally prefer the added time checking distances to prevent that scenario. Each to their own of course.

I also play a little Malifaux, and which full on grids aren't used, it's very common to have play mats that have deployment zones and objective related distances marked out. These mats generally do a very good job of blending the markings into the printed terrain so it doesn't detract from the aesthetic of the battlefield.

Seems your quote tags got messed up.
I think that I fixed it for you...

Well, you could always just turn it into BattleTech I guess, no need to measure distances, no need to judge firing arcs by model etc. - but that'd turn it into a very different game.

There's a guy in our group that uses a string to measure. He has it marked at 1" intervals. Weaving it around trees and buildings. Then he gets into debates over 1/16" differences with people that are about to charge him. Pain in the ass.

A lot of people speaking like it's a new thing, pre-measuring has been in the game for a good while now.

In regards to the OP and his situation... well that's the exact point of pre-measuring. I'd 100% rather me and my opponent move tactfully knowing how far we can both charge within reason, move and shoot etc so I can react precisely to his movements.

40k with no pre measurements would be a big gak show

 AaronWilson wrote:
A lot of people speaking like it's a new thing, pre-measuring has been in the game for a good while now.

Then you're misreading what's being said. Yes, premeasuring has been in the game since 6th ed. (which is not exactly "a good while". 40k has existed since 1987, 6th was released in 2012.) but only in the last few years (stepped up with the release of Mk3 for WMH last year) has it been in vogue for games with premeasuring used to have the tables cluttered with laser pointers, widgets and proxy bases (GW even released their own one to go with 8th ed.). Wargaming is a lot about the visuals (which for a lot of people is the biggest thing 40k has going for it) and a lot of us don't want our boards cluttered with gak.

It's not about who did it first. It's about what's being done with it now.

Who is using laser pointers and widgets for 40k?

A) Laser points are useless, it's true LoS

B) Why would you need a widget when you can measure 24", declare you're on the egde of 24" and both agree?

If your local meta is full of people using widgets, laser points, etc etc then that's a shame, but I've literally never seen them used in 40k (bar the new combat gauge)

Ruin wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
A lot of people speaking like it's a new thing, pre-measuring has been in the game for a good while now.

Then you're misreading what's being said. Yes, premeasuring has been in the game since 6th ed. (which is not exactly "a good while". 40k has existed since 1987, 6th was released in 2012.) but only in the last few years (stepped up with the release of Mk3 for WMH last year) has it been in vogue for games with premeasuring used to have the tables cluttered with laser pointers, widgets and proxy bases (GW even released their own one to go with 8th ed.). Wargaming is a lot about the visuals (which for a lot of people is the biggest thing 40k has going for it) and a lot of us don't want our boards cluttered with gak.

It's not about who did it first. It's about what's being done with it now.

Since templates and blast markers are gone I'd imagine there is considerably less need for widgets now, no need to carefully measure out that 2" distance between every model in your horde to defend against blasts.

Also laser pointers have been used in 40k for a while, hell GW had their own branded one at one point point or another since at least 5th (if not earlier).

 Imateria wrote:

Ruin wrote:

 AaronWilson wrote:
A lot of people speaking like it's a new thing, pre-measuring has been in the game for a good while now.

Then you're misreading what's being said. Yes, premeasuring has been in the game since 6th ed. (which is not exactly "a good while". 40k has existed since 1987, 6th was released in 2012.) but only in the last few years (stepped up with the release of Mk3 for WMH last year) has it been in vogue for games with premeasuring used to have the tables cluttered with laser pointers, widgets and proxy bases (GW even released their own one to go with 8th ed.). Wargaming is a lot about the visuals (which for a lot of people is the biggest thing 40k has going for it) and a lot of us don't want our boards cluttered with gak.

It's not about who did it first. It's about what's being done with it now.

Since templates and blast markers are gone I'd imagine there is considerably less need for widgets now, no need to carefully measure out that 2" distance between every model in your horde to defend against blasts.

And the removal of vehicle facings and fire arcs has largely removed the need for laser line generators.

 AaronWilson wrote:
Who is using laser pointers and widgets for 40k?

A) Laser points are useless, it's true LoS

B) Why would you need a widget when you can measure 24", declare you're on the egde of 24" and both agree?

If your local meta is full of people using widgets, laser points, etc etc then that's a shame, but I've literally never seen them used in 40k (bar the new combat gauge)

Agreed.

The reason this sort of thing is so prevalent in WM/H is because the ranges of abilities and especially weapons are relatively small compared to 40k while the effects of combining all of them in specific ways is absolutely huge. It's a fairly big simplification, but WM/H is basically about trying to set up your super-combos which have to operate within a very small range of distances. That requires a certain level of precision.

In 40k, weapons ranges are so great and requiring units to be in range of multiple buffing abilities is fairly rare so all the extraneous stuff that gets used in WM/H just isn't needed. In most cases the difference between 20" and 23" isn't that important and in the rare instances when it is a simple agreement between players is usually enough to allow the game to proceed. We've had pre-measuring for a while and I've never had it be a problem in either 40k or back when it was used in WH.