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Different question to the general shooting phase.

Let's say I have one unit of Aggressors, and a Tactical Squad.

Aggressors trigger their 'shoot twice' ability that turn.

Now, it's been FAQ'd that each volley from the Aggressors can be aimed at different targets. So far, so clear.

My question is whether or not the Aggressors, or indeed any unit double tapping, must fully resolve each volley concurrently. So 'Agressor volley 1, Aggressor Volley 2, Tactical Squad'....or could I potentially 'Agressor Volley 1, Tactical Squad mop up, Aggressor Volley 2'

I don't play Marines, so I'm not looking to rules lawyer. It's just something I need clearing up.

I would say they don't have to, the same way Khorne Berzerkers don't have to be activated immediately after itself.

I'm having a discussion about this very topic with my gaming group right now. The rule book says all targets must be declared before any dice are rolled. So I'm thinking that all that unit/ models shooting must be completed before you move on to your next unit.

In the particular case of the Aggressors, their rule says: 'models in this unit can fire twice...'

Therefore, the only thing the rule allows you to do is to fire the models twice, the unit itself is not able to fire twice.

As such, when you choose the unit to shoot, you would have to resolve all of its shooting then (including each model firing twice) before moving onto another unit. Because once you do move onto shooting with another unit, no rule allows you to come back and choose that unit to shoot again.

This is markedly different than the Khorne Bezerker rule, which allows the UNIT to fight twice.

Would the unit still have to declare all its targets before any shooting.

yellowfever wrote:
Would the unit still have to declare all its targets before any shooting.

Although the FAQ covering this isn't 100% definitive on answering your particular question, I do believe the way the answer is worded indicates that you are free to choose a different target with your second round of shots (at the time you fire that second round of shots).

From the rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a model has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g.
Maugan Ra and his Whirlwind of Death ability), do I need to
shoot the same target each time or can I choose different targets?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different
targets each time it shoots. Resolve the first shooting
attack completely before resolving the second.

I had a situation where a unit of Aggressors shot at some thunderwolf calvary. The thunderwolves died, then he used his second wave of shooting to engage Harold Deathwolf. I thought all targets had to be declared before any shooting happened which would have prevented him from being able to engage Harold.

One of the things I believe we should keep in mind, though it says more to Intent then it does to Rule as Written, are Rulings to similar situations. After all, there are other Units that have Rules allowing them to do something twice a Phase, following the same phasing as used here. The most obvious one of these would be the Berzerkers mentioned prior, as the same question was asked for their 'fight twice' ability. When you look at the answer provided for those situations, it becomes even more obvious that the intention was to allow the entire sequence to be accessed twice.

While we where provided different instructions for this Answer, for... reasons..., the only thing lacking is the Timing instructions which make it obvious that Step 1 is included in the 'attack again.'

yellowfever wrote:
I had a situation where a unit of Aggressors shot at some thunderwolf calvary. The thunderwolves died, then he used his second wave of shooting to engage Harold Deathwolf. I thought all targets had to be declared before any shooting happened which would have prevented him from being able to engage Harold.

That would probably be the proper course of thought based on the RAW, but given GW's FAQ answer, they make it clear that you resolve the first attack completely before the second attack. The only reason to clarify it as such is to essentially say that you're firing a full second round of shooting (including selecting new targets for the second round of shooting).

Otherwise you'd essentially just be making all the attacks as part of the same round of shooting, which wouldn't match the answer GW gave.

Of course when they tell you to resolve the first attack completely it could be in reference to Step 4 of the Shooting phase, 'Resolve Attacks' and not to just double the number of attacks you resolve at a single time.

I'm assuming it's just a poorly-worded rule and intent is that the unit can activate and fire twice, not that they just use double shots vs one target?

 Ghaz wrote:
Of course when they tell you to resolve the first attack completely it could be in reference to Step 4 of the Shooting phase, 'Resolve Attacks' and not to just double the number of attacks you resolve at a single time.

That's true, except for the fact that GW says you can choose different targets when the model fires its weapon a second time, which indicates that you are, in fact, supposed to resolve a second complete round of shooting.

Or you choose the target for both rounds of shooting before you resolve the attacks. After all, you do know that you'll be able to fire twice at the start of the Shooting phase.

 Ghaz wrote:
Or you choose the target for both rounds of shooting before you resolve the attacks. After all, you do know that you'll be able to fire twice at the start of the Shooting phase.

Hopefully we can all agree that the FAQ answer provided doesn't give us the precision needed to have definitive answer on this topic.

However, with that said, the way the FAQ answers the question strongly leads me to believe you are supposed to be able to choose a new target with the second set of shots. Why?

Because GW could have simply answered 'yes' to the question that a model which fires twice could choose different targets, and then it would have been played exactly the way you're saying (you declare your targets ahead of time and then you go on and resolve the shooting for the model twice at the selected targets).

But the fact is, they went on to clarify that you resolve the first set of shooting completely before moving onto the second set of shooting. If the purpose of that clarification is not to allow the firing model to select a new target after seeing the results of his initial shooting, then what is it? What is the point of saying you resolve the first set of shots completely before moving onto the second set of shots if not to allow a new target to be selected?

The FAQ does two things. First, it clarifies that you can shoot at different target(s) when you fire the second time instead of requiring you to fire at the same target(s) that you originally fired at. Secondly it explains how to do this, by resolving the first shooting attack completely before resolving the second. With the FAQ not mentioning when you declare your target(s), you'd therefore default to the standard rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
The FAQ does two things. First, it clarifies that you can shoot at different target(s) when you fire the second time instead of requiring you to fire at the same target(s) that you originally fired at. Secondly it explains how to do this, by resolving the first shooting attack completely before resolving the second. With the FAQ not mentioning when you declare your target(s), you'd therefore default to the standard rules.

But again, what is the point of them clarifying that you have to completely resolve the first set of shooting before the second set of shooting if not to allow a target to be chosen after the first set of shooting it completed?

What other possible reason is there to say that you need to do that?

I thought it worked how Ghaz is explaining it.

yellowfever wrote:
I thought it worked how Ghaz is explaining it.

Its clear that you believe that to be the case, but I'm still looking for an answer as to why GW would answer that way in their FAQ (that you must resolve one set of shooting first before doing the second set) if not to allow you to select the target for the second set of shooting after seeing what happens with the first set of shooting?

The point remains that we're not given explicit permission to revisit Step 2 of the Shooting phase between the first round of shooting and the second. Without further clarification from GW, I just don't see any other way to play it without seriously bending (if not outright breaking) the rules we have.

I'm also curious as to why they would treat Berserk as a separate selection when it comes to 'fight twice,' pretty cut and dry, but when it comes to 'shoot twice' we get this mess....

Why not simply inform us to treat it as a second Selection?
It is a simple solution they used once already, so they know it exists!

 Ghaz wrote:
The point remains that we're not given explicit permission to revisit Step 2 of the Shooting phase between the first round of shooting and the second. Without further clarification from GW, I just don't see any other way to play it without seriously bending (if not outright breaking) the rules we have.

But Ghaz, there's no rules at all for 'models firing', Step #4 is just 'resolve attacks' (not 'models fire' or anything like that). So there's nothing indicating that a model being able to fire twice means you're just resolving step #4 again. There's as much indication that you resolve all steps as there is to just resolve step #4.

... Because you always resovle shots from a weapon's attacks before moving on to the next attacks(even if it is attacks from the same weapon except for when you are using multiples of the same weapon on the same unit and the fast rolling rules)?

Let's take an easy basic weapon/unit in normal shooting: the bolt rifles of a DI primaris unit: 5 p-marines with bolt rifles are all within 15", but various members are only within that range of at least 1 of 2 enemy units(a and b). You have 3, back-models in range of b and 3 front models(middle model is in range of both) in range of a. The 3 in range of b are targeting b in steps 2 and 3 pi f the shooting phase. The 2 in range of a are targeting a in steps 2 and 3. The First of the back 3 is then going to go through step 4(or all 3 if fast rolling); no where during this step 4(resolve attacks) can you stop to start step 4 with a different model(or worse yet, an entirely diffetent weapon in a squad that has or has declared using them): you must fully resolve the first shooting attack before you move on to the next.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
... Because you always resovle shots from a weapon's attacks before moving on to the next attacks(even if it is attacks from the same weapon except for when you are using multiples of the same weapon on the same unit and the fast rolling rules)?

Let's take an easy basic weapon/unit in normal shooting: the bolt rifles of a DI primaris unit: 5 p-marines with bolt rifles are all within 15", but various members are only within that range of at least 1 of 2 enemy units(a and b). You have 3, back-models in range of b and 3 front models(middle model is in range of both) in range of a. The 3 in range of b are targeting b in steps 2 and 3 pi f the shooting phase. The 2 in range of a are targeting a in steps 2 and 3. The First of the back 3 is then going to go through step 4(or all 3 if fast rolling); no where during this step 4(resolve attacks) can you stop to start step 4 with a different model(or worse yet, an entirely diffetent weapon in a squad that has or has declared using them): you must fully resolve the first shooting attack before you move on to the next.

Agreed, that's how the rules work. Which again means there is literally no reason for GW to mention that you need to fully resolve the first set of shooting before the second set of shooting except if it means you're supposed to be starting over with the entire shooting process.

Still would have liked them to be a little more clear on it, which is why I do like this 'Select them again' answer for Berzerkers. Not only was the first sentence all we needed to resolve the situation, 'treat as a separate unit being selected' explains a lot, but they went on to explain out specific situations that will obviously come up on the Table Top. Not only did this make it completely clear what they wanted to do, it also ensured we would be handling the few odd situations correctly as well. It preemptively answered follow up questions that might occur in order to give a complete answer to the question.

 yakface wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
... Because you always resovle shots from a weapon's attacks before moving on to the next attacks(even if it is attacks from the same weapon except for when you are using multiples of the same weapon on the same unit and the fast rolling rules)?

Let's take an easy basic weapon/unit in normal shooting: the bolt rifles of a DI primaris unit: 5 p-marines with bolt rifles are all within 15", but various members are only within that range of at least 1 of 2 enemy units(a and b). You have 3, back-models in range of b and 3 front models(middle model is in range of both) in range of a. The 3 in range of b are targeting b in steps 2 and 3 pi f the shooting phase. The 2 in range of a are targeting a in steps 2 and 3. The First of the back 3 is then going to go through step 4(or all 3 if fast rolling); no where during this step 4(resolve attacks) can you stop to start step 4 with a different model(or worse yet, an entirely diffetent weapon in a squad that has or has declared using them): you must fully resolve the first shooting attack before you move on to the next.

Agreed, that's how the rules work. Which again means there is literally no reason for GW to mention that you need to fully resolve the first set of shooting before the second set of shooting except if it means you're supposed to be starting over with the entire shooting process.

You've, you have seen the threads here and I am sure on other sites asking about rules.

The question was if you could target both shots separately(not the worst question since it is not there in the rules for shooting twice with the same weapon); so the answer had to clarify that you are not rolling both sets of shots witj the same weapon at the same time(an accounting nightmare).

For all the complaining that GW cannot write rules to save their lives and then them trying to Idiot-proof this edition and then the FAQs; we, as a community, have just proven that we can build a bigger, better idiot to confuse the issue(ourselves as a whole, not any one individual).

Picking apart an answer to a real question(seriously there is nothing in the rules for handling multiple separate attacks from a single weapon in a turn) with; "but why would they tell us to follow the rules by explicitly restating the rules to follow, unless they mean something else" just doesn't make sense. The rules that we do have for aggressor's firing thier boltstorm twice(whether at 1 or 2 targets) is to make all of the to-hit rolls at the same time, all of the to-wound rolls at the same time, and then the opponent to allocate, save, and finalize each successful wound. That works great for all on 1 target, not so much on 2: hence the FAQ answer as it is.

 yakface wrote:

yellowfever wrote:
Would the unit still have to declare all its targets before any shooting.

Although the FAQ covering this isn't 100% definitive on answering your particular question, I do believe the way the answer is worded indicates that you are free to choose a different target with your second round of shots (at the time you fire that second round of shots).

From the rulebook FAQ:

Q: If a model has an ability that allows it to ‘shoot twice’ (e.g.
Maugan Ra and his Whirlwind of Death ability), do I need to
shoot the same target each time or can I choose different targets?
A: Unless otherwise stated, you can shoot different
targets each time it shoots. Resolve the first shooting
attack completely before resolving the second.

That's actually 100% air tight. They are seperate attacks, resolved seperately. Done and done.

How about Protector Protocols?

This says "Whilst this battle protocol is in effect, this unit cannot move or charge, but it can shoot twice in each of your shooting phases (and shoot twice when firing Overwatch)."

Does this mean I can shoot with the unit, shoot other units, then come back and shoot with this unit again?

No. Shooting twice is all done at the same time.

It is not exactly written anywhere but shooting the first shots then choosing another unit, then going back to shoot the second shots is ni different then shooting with half a unit moving on to a second unit then coming back to the first unit(which is also not written as restricted).

As a Permissive rule-set we only have permission to select a unit to fire and then make all if its shooting attacks before moving on to the next unit.

So when you have a unit with the ability to shoot twice; you choose that unit to fire, select all of your targets for all of your shooting attacks, then resolve those attacks.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No. Shooting twice is all done at the same time.

It is not exactly written anywhere but shooting the first shots then choosing another unit, then going back to shoot the second shots is ni different then shooting with half a unit moving on to a second unit then coming back to the first unit(which is also not written as restricted).

As a Permissive rule-set we only have permission to select a unit to fire and then make all if its shooting attacks before moving on to the next unit.

So when you have a unit with the ability to shoot twice; you choose that unit to fire, select all of your targets for all of your shooting attacks, then resolve those attacks.

Rules citations?

Read the post.