Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've had a couple of games now involving Celestine now, and in every game she's pulling more than her weight. Today's example was a 4 player 500 point game (with some modified multiplayer rules) where Celestine and her body guards cleaned up a killer kan, two 10-man space marine tactical squads (3 models remaining of 20), two space marine captains, and a space marine terminator librarian. That's about double the invested points destroyed. At the end of this she had died once, and finished the game with full health on her squad - so with additional time she may have done the same again.

Here is the rough version of what she is / can do:
- Pay a little bit more than 250 points for her and 2 bodyguards
- She's a character with 7 wounds, so you probably can't target her if you go first
- Since she is the only Sisters of Battle unit, on a 2+ she's using an act of faith. Acts of faith include: bring a body guard back on 1 wound, heal herself or a body guard for d3 wounds, move 12", fight as if it's the fight phase
- Then, because Celestine, she does another act of faith (can't use the same act of faith though)
- Then she'll move 12" because jump infantry. So if it's turn 1, she's probably moved 24" total and is now ready to charge.
- She has a flamer of some sort - her shooting isn't amazing
- In combat, she swings 6 times, hits on 2+, str7, AP-3. I've never paid attention to the body guards in combat - everything is dead once Celestine attacks.
- 4+ invulnerable save, and because she's the warlord she's getting the 6+ FNP trait
- When you get through her 7 wounds, on a 2+ she comes back at full health. Good commanders keep a CP for this, so this is reliable.

Ways I've considered dealing with this:
1. Null zone and meltas works best. Typically, I allow her to charge a tactical squad. Then on my turn I fall back, cast null zone, and go to town with devastators. This reliably kills her. But to do it I've got a little worse than 50% chance to use null zone (and even less if there is a denier), and then there are other complications around positioning, my shots missing etc.
2. Every turn, feed her a 5-man tactical squad and don't try to kill her. She can duck and weave like a pro though, so it's hard to control what she actually charges.
3. I suppose storm shields would tarpit her effectively, but I don't run terminators and let's assume she would simply avoid them.
4. But everything in metal boxes?

Especially in low points (500-1000) games I'm struggling to bring the requisite firepower, and even then I need to concentrate everything on her to put her down. I would like to avoid setting my list up explicitly to deal with Celestine, but I'm struggling.

Are there other ways to deal with this? Is it simply a problem with high-point models in low-point games; that it ends up being binary - either the opponent has the tools to deal with it or they don't, and that question dictates the outcome?

Celestine is overpowered for her cost especially in some matchups. If I were you I would take 60 shootaboyz + two Weirdboyz instead of kans. Then you can smite, shoot or assault her to death. Twice. Also remember that Orks can take 'eadbanger, the psychich power that can instakill any model by rolling higher than their Toughness with a D6. It is basically useless for anything else than sniping Celestine.

Well, for starters it might help you to know that celestine cannot actually perform two acts of faith herself.

The AOF rule explicitly states that abilities, like celestines, that allow you to use more then one AOF must target different SOB units.

Other then that... yeah... good ++ save, comes back, for 150 pts she is pretty good, get the first charge off or have a good counter charge unit ?

Have you considered asking your opponent not to use her in such low-point games?

As someone who also uses Celestine, I think she's fine at 1500+pt games. However, I'm hesitant to use her at games of 1000pts and below - especially with her bodyguard as well.

 vipoid wrote:
Have you considered asking your opponent not to use her in such low-point games?

As someone who also uses Celestine, I think she's fine at 1500+pt games. However, I'm hesitant to use her at games of 1000pts and below - especially with her bodyguard as well.

This. From your description your opponent playing her isn't even a Sisters player. You could tell them they can't play Celestine until they have an all Sisters army.

If she is present on the table top, I would advise you to focus on the rest of your opponents units and play the scenario. Celestine is good, but my opponents make her better by spending a turn not shooting at my army to kill her, when you know she's got a CP waiting for the re-roll to bring her back at full strength.

Bring your own Celestine.

Thanks for your replies. I appreciate the feedback.

 vipoid wrote:
Have you considered asking your opponent not to use her in such low-point games?

I think this might be the solution - keeping in mind that I don't want to be TFG by telling people which units they may and may not use - and I also want to avoid singling one player out. Maybe it's not limited to just Celestine, and can be applied as a blanket to any model/unit that is more than X% of your points. Consider a land raider in a 500 point game. Either it drives around untouchable for the game, or the opponent happened to bring a mechanism to get meltas in range, destroy it, and then there is not much army left. Same thing with a 500 point knight in a 1000 point game.

 dracpanzer wrote:
From your description your opponent playing her isn't even a Sisters player.

Correct. Lately the player in question has been favouring a combination of Celestine and min/maxed Scions; the base army is AM. Our other players (me included) typically run less optimised lists.

 easysauce wrote:
Well, for starters it might help you to know that celestine cannot actually perform two acts of faith herself.
The AOF rule explicitly states that abilities, like celestines, that allow you to use more then one AOF must target different SOB units.

Noted! Thanks for the tip! I'll double check the wording on AOF next time I play (I don't own Imperial Index 2). That will materially slow her down - especially in regards to the rate at which she can regenerate the squad.

I'm going to suggest to the gaming group that we attempt not to make any single unit more than 30% of our list as a generalised guideline, just because of the nature of the games that are created. Of course there will be exceptions from time to time; for example grey knights in low-point games have few choices.

Sorcererbob wrote:
Thanks for your replies. I appreciate the feedback.

 vipoid wrote:
Have you considered asking your opponent not to use her in such low-point games?

I think this might be the solution - keeping in mind that I don't want to be TFG by telling people which units they may and may not use - and I also want to avoid singling one player out. Maybe it's not limited to just Celestine, and can be applied as a blanket to any model/unit that is more than X% of your points. Consider a land raider in a 500 point game. Either it drives around untouchable for the game, or the opponent happened to bring a mechanism to get meltas in range, destroy it, and then there is not much army left. Same thing with a 500 point knight in a 1000 point game.

How can you be TFG when they're TFG? You're not bringing an undercosted big unit to a 500 point game. Let them know you don't appreciate the cheese and urge them to bring something else on the level of the rest of the group. Refuse to play them if they don't.

 The Airman wrote:

How can you be TFG when they're TFG? You're not bringing an undercosted big unit to a 500 point game.

Is it possible that they simply like Celestne?

I mean, if she was my favourite character, I'd want to use her in most/all of my games, too.

Now, granted, I limit myself to using her in mid-high point games, but if you mostly play lower point games then you might not have that option.


My point is, it seems far better not to assume the worst in people. At the very least, I would start by politely asking them if they could perhaps save Celestine for higher point games.

If you begin by demanding that they stop using her, it is unlikely to result in a favourable response.

 The Airman wrote:

Sorcererbob wrote:
Thanks for your replies. I appreciate the feedback.

 vipoid wrote:
Have you considered asking your opponent not to use her in such low-point games?

I think this might be the solution - keeping in mind that I don't want to be TFG by telling people which units they may and may not use - and I also want to avoid singling one player out. Maybe it's not limited to just Celestine, and can be applied as a blanket to any model/unit that is more than X% of your points. Consider a land raider in a 500 point game. Either it drives around untouchable for the game, or the opponent happened to bring a mechanism to get meltas in range, destroy it, and then there is not much army left. Same thing with a 500 point knight in a 1000 point game.

How can you be TFG when they're TFG? You're not bringing an undercosted big unit to a 500 point game. Let them know you don't appreciate the cheese and urge them to bring something else on the level of the rest of the group. Refuse to play them if they don't.

I prefer to stay away from hard lines like that. I guess my view in general is that just because someone does something not ideal, that doesn't give me an excuse to disregard them. Another way of saying that is that my beef isn't sufficient to make me give up the opportunity for games.

 vipoid wrote:

 The Airman wrote:

How can you be TFG when they're TFG? You're not bringing an undercosted big unit to a 500 point game.

Is it possible that they simply like Celestne?

I mean, if she was my favourite character, I'd want to use her in most/all of my games, too.

Now, granted, I limit myself to using her in mid-high point games, but if you mostly play lower point games then you might not have that option.


My point is, it seems far better not to assume the worst in people. At the very least, I would start by politely asking them if they could perhaps save Celestine for higher point games.

If you begin by demanding that they stop using her, it is unlikely to result in a favourable response.

I agree with this view. Of course he likes Celestine. She's likable. Great model, powerful rules, fits into nearly any army list. I can definitely see why she gets used.

Try adding the Sustained Assault rule from narrative play to whatever mission you elect to run and have it apply to all players. Being able to recycle casualties should help even things out as Celestine won't be able to get as strong an attritional advantage.

Spam Plasma, Over Heat re-roll 1's if you can.

You'll wound on 2+ and do 2D, it will only be a 50/50 chance to save 2D and then once she is dead do it 1 more time.

250pts of Plasma can kill her 5x (she is 150pts, 50pts per Geminae).

At those low point games, Plasma is amazing anyways compare to Las Cannons. (tho i would still take a couple AT/MC weapons like 2-3 ML/Las Cannons)

You play orks just use eadbanger psychic power.
Get within 9in roll d6 vs Celestine toughness 3. Roll higher is 50% chance to Instantly slay her right past her guards and she can't pass it since it's not wounds.

This will likely only work once and she will avoid your psykers like the plague thereafter.
It's not that great of a power but definitely decent vs Celestine. Imho it needs to be target model within 9in and remove from game or a 24in range str6 d3 wound sniping power to give orks access to a sniper.

As a Celestine player, I will say I'd never bring her at 1k or less, partly because of balance issues and partly because of play style... I like unloading tanks full of Battle Sisters into my opponent's face and she cuts into my ability to do that. I'll also go on record as slightly annoyed that Celestine shows up in so many games. I think she's pretty well balanced in a Sisters force, but when she rolls with the best Imperial units culled from multiple armies, I can see how she feels overwhelming. I'd be candid with your opponent as others have suggested above.

'EAdbanger is not gona work because it is forced to target the closest models and she has 2 meatshields. And wierdboyz don't have enough mobility. Simply spamming smite and footslogging boyz is better. Orks are in a better situation vs celestine. Will still loose 90% of the time cause there is still the rest of the list on the other side. Celestine is like 50% undercosted for what she brings to the table.

I play her every SoB game i play even at 1k. The difference is i'm not a WAAC player, so i don't play her efficiently nor take Geminae.

Playing her at 1k or less and using her to the full strength is the same as taking Gman or Yncarne and using them at full strength aswell.

Gman or Yncarne lists built to use them effectively even at 1k is just as scary.

Same goes for an IK, if you take a Crusader IK at 1k (yes its 580pts) but its just as survivable as St. Celestine and does a lot more damage.

Either way when anyone brings a big hitter to Low point games and plays it to win, they are a WAAC player, and you treat all WAAC players the same.

Edit: Spelling

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I play her every SoB game i play even at 1k. The difference is i'm not a WAAC player, so i don't play her efficiently nor take Geminae.

So if anyone else brings her at low point games (1k) they are WAAC, but you aren't. Okay.... I can see that not bringing Geminae has an impact on her survivability, but how do you play her inefficiently? Use her as an area denial unit or objective holder? Maybe just as a very survivable line breaker unit? Why bring her at all if you think its WAAC to do so unless you just run her around as a 150 point mascot who avoids helping your army?

 dracpanzer wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I play her every SoB game i play even at 1k. The difference is i'm not a WAAC player, so i don't play her efficiently nor take Geminae.

So if anyone else brings her at low point games (1k) they are WAAC, but you aren't. Okay.... I can see that not bringing Geminae has an impact on her survivability, but how do you play her inefficiently? Use her as an area denial unit or objective holder? Maybe just as a very survivable line breaker unit? Why bring her at all if you think its WAAC to do so unless you just run her around as a 150 point mascot who avoids helping your army?

No i didnt say bring her makes or doesnt make you, i said "Playing her at 1k or less and using her to the full strength" aka using her to WIN the game rather than a cool model and fluff.

You can take Gman and still be friendly, you can take a Super heavy and still be friendly.

Here are some examples

1) Use her AoF NOT TO get melee 2nd or shoot twice, even move 2x to get a crazy charge off
2) Charge units that you dont need help killing with her ot waste a potential game changing charge.
3) Use her more as an objective grabber (a fast moving unit) across the table
4) Dont bring her out turn 1, wait till turn 3 where you miss 2 turns of using her
5) Or instead of 4, rbing her out turn 1 (depending on who you are fighting) and let your opponent get 5 turns to kill her.

Should i go on? or do you understand the difference in friendly play and WAAC play?

Edit: Why bring her? B.c the game is about fun and i enjoy the models, i play for fun, she is fun, her model is fun. I'm sorry if you cant understand winning isnt everything, i'd rather have a very fun game.

Your defense for bringing her to a 1000 point game is literally as bad as Mellisia saying that she shouldn't be nerfed because she'd only have the regular Cannoness available and that it isn't good enough.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your defense for bringing her to a 1000 point game is literally as bad as Mellisia saying that she shouldn't be nerfed because she'd only have the regular Cannoness available and that it isn't good enough.

But what im saying is true for all units and games, so should i bring 6 units of Doms in repressors instead? or 9 units of HB rets behind a wall with Imagifiers and canoness? etc....

The point was it shouldnt matter what you bring, as long as BOTH players are having fun. If both are WAAC players and wants a competitive game, cool. If one is having a problem and doesnt want to play with you, then you can either play down, chage your list, or those 2 wont play with each other.

Are some things unbalanced? Sure but 1 character being 50-75pts cheaper than it should be shouldnt break a game.

You know what will break a games fun? NOT TALKING, you "should" talk to your opponent 1st anyways.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your defense for bringing her to a 1000 point game is literally as bad as Mellisia saying that she shouldn't be nerfed because she'd only have the regular Cannoness available and that it isn't good enough.

But what im saying is true for all units and games, so should i bring 6 units of Doms in repressors instead? or 9 units of HB rets behind a wall with Imagifiers and canoness? etc....

The point was it shouldnt matter what you bring, as long as BOTH players are having fun. If both are WAAC players and wants a competitive game, cool. If one is having a problem and doesnt want to play with you, then you can either play down, chage your list, or those 2 wont play with each other.

Are some things unbalanced? Sure but 1 character being 50-75pts cheaper than it should be shouldnt break a game.

You know what will break a games fun? NOT TALKING, you "should" talk to your opponent 1st anyways.

You admit you have to play gakky with the unit to not be WAAC. Not everybody has opponents that do dumb gak like that. Some of us like to play a good game, and this person is pointing out that Celestine is flat out not balanced.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Should i go on? or do you understand the difference in friendly play and WAAC play?
.

You seem very hostile to people using a model the way the rules work. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your way of toning a strong model down, it could make for a more fun game, but it seems a bit weird to assert that people should deliberately badly command their units...

I do think celestine is too strong for her points btw, but I'd rather just pay an extra hundred points for her if I wanted to run her in a more friendly way.

 koooaei wrote:
'EAdbanger is not gona work because it is forced to target the closest models and she has 2 meatshields. And wierdboyz don't have enough mobility. Simply spamming smite and footslogging boyz is better. Orks are in a better situation vs celestine. Will still loose 90% of the time cause there is still the rest of the list on the other side. Celestine is like 50% undercosted for what she brings to the table.

It is literally players choice if 2 models are equally the same distance like in base to base contact... furthermore you can only transfer wounds not prevent an ability that instantly slays her past her meatshields.... normally I'd say da jump one weird boy with eadbanger but that's more then 9'in and eadbanger is 9in. Eadbanger is actually better then smite at removing her bodyguards as well.

I agree with you she's underpriced and I think a lot of undercosted units will be fixed in the pay for FAQs chapter approved book.

 DoomMouse wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Should i go on? or do you understand the difference in friendly play and WAAC play?
.

You seem very hostile to people using a model the way the rules work. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your way of toning a strong model down, it could make for a more fun game, but it seems a bit weird to assert that people should deliberately badly command their units...

I do think celestine is too strong for her points btw, but I'd rather just pay an extra hundred points for her if I wanted to run her in a more friendly way.

Im not, i think she is 50-75pts cheaper than she should be, but also have stated he needs to talk to the opponent if he hates her on the table so much.

Edit: I think i must say this also, i came in here b.c he said "Help with dealing at low point games" Not discus who thinks she is broken.

Focus her till she is dead, will take some ML's LC's and PG's to do it quickly, anything with multi damage and -2 ap is great.

If you are melee heavy, charge her 1st, dont ler her get a charge and/or aof melee 2x. If you can charge her and kill her in 1 round do it. (Harlequins can and Berserkers might be able to). Wraiths with Ynnari can easily, heck almost all Ynnari can deal with her easily.

Each to their own but I'd rather see her brought down in power a bit, rather than just getting a huge price increase.

 vipoid wrote:
Each to their own but I'd rather see her brought down in power a bit, rather than just getting a huge price increase.

What's the thing to do then? Make her only come back once?

I play Sisters. On small points she's bonkers. Ad to her full squad of seraphins and you have murdersquad. The get 5++ rerollable from her and thats very nice. If you see this combo on 500 pts game you can call bulshit, cause your opponent is going ham.
Solution? If you play orks, get weirdboyz and rock those smites. Mortal wounds are mortal wounds, with bit of luck you can even delete her in once in one psychic phase. Not very likely, but possible. They are also very universal, 3 mortal wounds equal to 3 1w models killed, 3 wounds on vehicle or other multiwound character.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What's the thing to do then? Make her only come back once?

She already only comes back once.

That aside, my suggestion would be one or more of the following:
- Reduce her strength to 5, 6 at most (7 seems too high).
- Reduce her wounds to 6.
- Reduce her attacks to 5.
- Change the wording of Healing Tears so that it makes her Act of Faith bring back a Gaminae on full wounds. This would both prevent her from reviving both Geminae in the same turn and also force her to use an Act of Faith just to revive one of them.
- Give Geminae worse saves and/or reduce their wounds to 1 each.
- Alternatively, make Gaminae stronger (better stats/weapons, possibly give them her aura), but make them act ad independently from her once the game begins. i.e. they basically become separate HQs and so can't act as bullet-sponges for her.

I would be fine if her str was 5 honestly, the S7 is a bit much.

Just make the geminae each only revive once.
That makes her a 22 wounds (15 if she fails her 2+ revive) for 250pts and that's still a freakin steal.