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Honest question here. If you were the GW troll in charge of making Ork Walkers worth buying/using in a tournament, what would you do to buff them?

Right off the bat my immediate thought is a 30-40% price cut. Next increase movement and or better weapon options. A killa Kan is basically limited to one of two builds, Rokkitz (way to expensive) or Big Shoota (useless, but cheap). Dreadz are another story entirely, and nauts are probably in the same boat as Kanz.

Lets hear some ideas.

Honestly I don't really think they need a price cut as long as we give them some form of mobility. That's honestly their biggest flaw. I've had mild success mixing them with boyz blobs as a screen, but ultimately for a pure walker list to work they'd just need to have some way to get to the enemy faster.

IMHO they should only receive a price cut. Both kans and dread have decent profiles, orks units should not be super good, they should be average but spammable. A dread should be 80 points with its cheapest leadout, 100 with 4 klaws.

Kans not more than 35 points a piece with rokkits, KMB or grotzookas.

Same for the nauts, their stats are fine, they should only cost 80ish points less their current price.

That's the issue of the 90% of the ork codex, I don't think the profiles need some changes, but pretty much everything costs too many points. In fact what are the units that are more common in competitive orks lists? Boyz, stormboyz, kommandos, weirdboyz, big meks and warbosses aka the only units that did not receive a price increase, some of them are even cheaper that they were in 7th edition.

The other big problem with a lot of ork stuff is that unlike the units from the other low-BS pie plate reliant faction (guard) none of our blast weapons got modifications to account for the fact that blasts were initially intended to mitigate poor ballistic skill.

Guard weapons got stuff like the basilisk (2d6 pick the highest) or the manticore (2d6 shots instead of its previous rule) or the mortars (small blast weapon, transferred to a D6). Ork weapons just got a flat conversion of large blast = D6, small blast = D3 if they were lucky (i.e. not burna boyz who got a 50% damage nerf for some baffling reason after not being good at all previously).

Blasts used to work on the concept of "its hard to miss" now, it's incredibly easy, and most of our blast weapons average less than 1 hit per shot, which is just abysmal. They're variable *in concept* but in practice you're just never going to get a single hit off with that super-expensive kilkannon even if you fire it every single turn.

tldr: boyz are fine. Toyz need serious work to make orks not a boring one-note.

what do I actually expect: Boyz to get a nerf, toyz to stay exactly the same. Lolrandom Klan Tactics that cause more harm than benefit to your army.

SemperMortis wrote:
Honest question here. If you were the GW troll in charge of making Ork Walkers worth buying/using in a tournament, what would you do to buff them?

Right off the bat my immediate thought is a 30-40% price cut. Next increase movement and or better weapon options. A killa Kan is basically limited to one of two builds, Rokkitz (way to expensive) or Big Shoota (useless, but cheap). Dreadz are another story entirely, and nauts are probably in the same boat as Kanz.

Lets hear some ideas.

Kanz with KMB also work pretty well, taking a mortal wound from a KMB on multiple models even allows to spread wounds around. The KMB is not awesome against vehicles, but pretty decent characters or infantry with good saves. Skorchas are kind of a waste, but not terrible. The only real problem child is the grotzooka. In order to make standing still worthwhile it either needs to go up do 2d6 shots or get an AP of 1 or 2. Currently it's just a more expensive big shoota.
Thing is, you can't get enough of them on the board for them to matter. A full unit with rokkits should cost around 240 - they are hard to kill, but killing multiple is rewarded by moral. In addition, they are a lot less killy than the same amount spent on tank bustas or boyz.

On deff dreads I feel like they have to few wounds. T7 and 3+ saves are great against small army, but anything with d6 damage simply blows it away. If it had ~12 wounds it could at least take two hits from lascannons and keep stomping. 8" movement like nauts would also help.
I could also do with a point drop so I can have more of them, which is basically the same as more wounds.
In addition their CCW need to be cheaper. Each one is basically a gamble that does nothing if you can't reach combat, they cost way too much for that.

Gorkanauts are decent, they just need a point drop. Morkanauts either need more shots or grot gunners. As they are now, their weapons are not reliable enough to bother with.

In general some sort of Dread Mob stratagem that either protects tem or speeds them up might also be great.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Honest question here. If you were the GW troll in charge of making Ork Walkers worth buying/using in a tournament, what would you do to buff them?

Right off the bat my immediate thought is a 30-40% price cut. Next increase movement and or better weapon options. A killa Kan is basically limited to one of two builds, Rokkitz (way to expensive) or Big Shoota (useless, but cheap). Dreadz are another story entirely, and nauts are probably in the same boat as Kanz.

Lets hear some ideas.

Kanz with KMB also work pretty well, taking a mortal wound from a KMB on multiple models even allows to spread wounds around. The KMB is not awesome against vehicles, but pretty decent characters or infantry with good saves. Skorchas are kind of a waste, but not terrible. The only real problem child is the grotzooka. In order to make standing still worthwhile it either needs to go up do 2d6 shots or get an AP of 1 or 2. Currently it's just a more expensive big shoota.
Thing is, you can't get enough of them on the board for them to matter. A full unit with rokkits should cost around 240 - they are hard to kill, but killing multiple is rewarded by moral. In addition, they are a lot less killy than the same amount spent on tank bustas or boyz.

On deff dreads I feel like they have to few wounds. T7 and 3+ saves are great against small army, but anything with d6 damage simply blows it away. If it had ~12 wounds it could at least take two hits from lascannons and keep stomping. 8" movement like nauts would also help.
I could also do with a point drop so I can have more of them, which is basically the same as more wounds.
In addition their CCW need to be cheaper. Each one is basically a gamble that does nothing if you can't reach combat, they cost way too much for that.

Gorkanauts are decent, they just need a point drop. Morkanauts either need more shots or grot gunners. As they are now, their weapons are not reliable enough to bother with.

In general some sort of Dread Mob stratagem that either protects tem or speeds them up might also be great.

Every time I've run Killa Kanz, they've been absolute gold. Full sized squad of six with rokkits running alongside a Nob with Waaagh Banner and a warboss with a big boyz blob alongside them to help spread the effects of the buffs. Typically, initial rounds of anti-tank fire go to my other mechanized units and transports when it becomes clear how hard kanz are to kill this edition, and any light fire goes into the second boyz blob I teleport in as a distraction turn 1. Kanz hit home turn 2/3 depending on the opposing army and go to town with 4+ WS. The Warboss acts as insurance vs morale (a couple mortal wounds is a darn sight better than losing a kan at the end of the day). I've experimented with a Kff mek as well but it seems like overkill with a basic 3+ save. Rarely do killa kanz warrant stuff with AP-4 to fully make the 5++ worth it, and generally if the opponent starts shooting them, they know they don't degrade so they go for the full kill, so I don't get to repair them.

All other kinds of walkers are kind of a different story. Deff dreads, echoing everyone here, just too pricy for what they do. ironic that they STILL didn't get folded into the "great dreadnought extra attack-a-thon" of late 7th ed, which would have fixed them by making them the more buff-independent, offensively oriented melee walker they should be. Gorkanauts are OK, but more flash than substance. You shoot with it once, your opponent sees you roll a giant pile of dice, and the next turn it eats every lascannon they have and blows up. Morkanaut, totally worthless, as are stompas.

I just want my well painted Morkanaut to do something and not cost 1/4 of my army Bloody hell though it looks good on my shelf!

Seems orks need more cheap dakka.
Lots of misses sure but lots more bullets as well.

 jeff white wrote:
Seems orks need more cheap dakka.
Lots of misses sure but lots more bullets as well.

Dude! The Nauts are like 370pts and still hit on a 5! Plus two of the weapons cause mortal wounds on itself if you role a 1! So fighting against some armies ( with -1 to hit) you have the same chance to just hit the target than you do to wound yourself! Plus your main weapon is straight up D6 so it's very hard to role the number of shots needed just to increase the chances of getting a hit!

Ork walkers are, believe it or not, improved. But still sub-par.

Kans are decent as-is, I think. A bit expensive, but you get a lot of wounds for not a ton of points. I wish grotzookas weren't heavy weapons, that's my biggest beef with kans.

Deff dreads are too expensive. Imperial dreads are objectively better for about the same points cost. And by objectively better I mean: Better ranged weapon selection, better BS, about the same amount of attacks, better strength (deff dreads are S5 for some reason, but imperial dreads are S6).

I'm fine with deff dreads being worse at shooting than imperial dreads, but they aren't any better at melee (worse, technically), and cost almost the same.

Orkanauts are better than they were. They'd almost be good, except their ranged capacity is awful. It's sad that their twin big shootas have always been and remain the best weapon on them. If they doubled their current shots they'd be decent. Not great: Decent.

Take the gorkanaut. Its main weapon is about as effective as a single assault cannon. That's pathetic.

People always doubt it when I tell them that the orkanats shooting is awful, despite their appearance, and I've never misled them.

But if deff dreads got around a 10-20% points cut, and orkanauts got a massive up-gunning, I think ork walkers would be fine. That won't happen, of course, but a git can dream.

For me here are a few things that would help.

Change grotzookas to assault.

Drop points on ork weapons in general (this helps some with cost of these units. if Rokkits were say 8 points, that is a bit of savings on a Kan), same with on the Orkanauts (right now the gork has 69 points worth of guns. If Rokkits were say 8 points, skorchas were 13, and Twin Big Shootas were say 10. Then you are down by 20 points each to 49 points)

Allow Deff Dreads to benefit from Waaagh ability, this would up their effective speed by a bit.

Give deff dreads 4 attacks base, this makes them quite a bit better in the assault than a space marine Dread.

Maybe give the Orkanauts the same amount of CC attacks. They're the same price basically so why give one way more CC attacks?

 lolman1c wrote:
Maybe give the Orkanauts the same amount of CC attacks. They're the same price basically so why give one way more CC attacks?

I'm fine with them having different CC attacks, what needs to happen is that the Morkanaut needs a BS buff, and both need Damage 6 on their fewer swing option. Otherwise I rarely see taking it as a good choice. That said I'd also like the Morkanaut to have more guns available.

 lolman1c wrote:
Maybe give the Orkanauts the same amount of CC attacks. They're the same price basically so why give one way more CC attacks?

Gorkanaut is more stompy - it has more attacks because it used to have a rule that gave it more CC attacks if it was outnumbered, now it just gets it base.

In theory, gorkanaut is better at melee, worse at range, morkanaut is the inverse. In reality, they both are awful at shooting, but at least the morkanaut is a nice KFF buffer.

Ramshackle should come back and apply to all ork vehicles. Make it "before damage is applied, roll a d6. On a 6+, reduce damage done to 1", or something like that

Kans would be better just when the ork ranged weapons aren't as stupidly expensive as they are. The grotzooka on the other hand does need a fix. Since it's basically a giant scrap shotgun, maybe give it a special effect like the shotgun gets? I also feel like Skrag 'Em as a rule is nice, but in this case I'd actually prefer Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers

Deffdreads need a oints drop. Or more attacks. Or both. He should at least be affected by Waaagh!. Back in 7th I would argue it would be appropriate that deffdreads get rampage (because an ork stuck in a can is not a happy camper). They'd also benefit from weapons cost drops

The Orkanauts need to be made not just better in terms of cost and weapon strength, but more appropriate of what they represent: Nobz and Meks. Morkanauts should get the abilities they had in DoW3: Rokkit Punch! Fireable KFF! Spawnable Grot Riggers! Mek Guns! Gorkanauts should have abilities for keeping order and buffing nearby boyz, having extra weapons and strength to slam enemies with overwhelming brutality.

Bring back russbots would also be cool: trading out a orkanaut's transport capacity for a battle cannon

I forgot, yeah, ramshackle should just be an ork passive vehicle ability.

When compared to, say, quantum shielding, it seems reasonable to me.

1) Gorkanaut 275 points (319 fully equipped)
Morkanaut 215 points (299 fully equipped)
Deff dread 70 points
Killa kan 45 points
Dread klaw 10 points
Kan klaw 0 points
Skorcha 12 points
Rokkit 8 points
Big shoota 4 points (Twin BS 8 points)
Grotzooka 2 points

2) Waaaagh buffs affects Deff dreads and nauts. Runtherdz buffs affects Killa kanz

3) Kans and dreads can embark on transports, taking up six and twelve spots respectively

What if Kill kans took up 3 spaces in a transport? So you could pack 6 of them into a battlewagon? or 3 of them in a trukk?

I could certainly see orks packing kans into vehicles, and having them burst out!

 argonak wrote:
What if Kill kans took up 3 spaces in a transport? So you could pack 6 of them into a battlewagon? or 3 of them in a trukk?

I could certainly see orks packing kans into vehicles, and having them burst out!

it would certainly change the meaning of "bringing a six pack to the party"

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 argonak wrote:
What if Kill kans took up 3 spaces in a transport? So you could pack 6 of them into a battlewagon? or 3 of them in a trukk?

I could certainly see orks packing kans into vehicles, and having them burst out!

it would certainly change the meaning of "bringing a six pack to the party"

Exalted.

Putting kans in transports would be a break from tradition and an admission that their movement stats are insufficient. However, a kill tank full of kans sounds both very fluffy and absolutely terrifying.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 argonak wrote:
What if Kill kans took up 3 spaces in a transport? So you could pack 6 of them into a battlewagon? or 3 of them in a trukk?

I could certainly see orks packing kans into vehicles, and having them burst out!

it would certainly change the meaning of "bringing a six pack to the party"

Exalted.

Putting kans in transports would be a break from tradition and an admission that their movement stats are insufficient. However, a kill tank full of kans sounds both very fluffy and absolutely terrifying.

Now I just want to run one to pop out of my Gorkanaut like a baby kangaroo

orks should have a rule that removes negative modifiers from their shooting attacks against anything but flyers in fly mode. Plus their shooting weapons should be made cheaper. ard boys need to come back too.

Like most of the Orks this edition, they need to up the RoF on a lot of their stuff and remove the self-wounding parts of their gear since their BS is so low, or like above and make them ignore all modifiers to hit since they are just saturating the area with dakka anyway.
I'd like to see something like Orks always hit on a 5+ regardless of to hit modifiers. Most stuff wouldn't need too much of a points adjustment to make that fit.
As far as the walkers, I actually like them a lot this edition, though they could use a bump in SPD

I play Nids, and we have some rules that make our hords, more...hordey? Anyway I think Orks should have a rule like "Good Dakka!" Because Orks believe that louder guns shoot Better, they do! So have a simple mechanism to give Orks +1 to hit when "X" maybe shooting more than X number of shots, and/or number of Rockets? etc so a Kan swarm could havs "Good Dakka!" that they lose as they get reduced....?


Then it's easy to write rules like "Stompas Always have Good Dakka.....

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 argonak wrote:
What if Kill kans took up 3 spaces in a transport? So you could pack 6 of them into a battlewagon? or 3 of them in a trukk?

I could certainly see orks packing kans into vehicles, and having them burst out!

it would certainly change the meaning of "bringing a six pack to the party"

Exalted.

Putting kans in transports would be a break from tradition and an admission that their movement stats are insufficient. However, a kill tank full of kans sounds both very fluffy and absolutely terrifying.

I need a Kan dispenser on the back like a depth charge launcher.

The point is to make sure that Orks still play like Orks, So maybe "spitballing" Good Dakka is: 20+ shots, or 8+ Rokets....that makes Shoota Boyz Differant, and takable for a reason....a Truk full of Shoota Boyz has Good Dakka, Slugga Boyz? Nope, dead killy, but not good Dakka.

Then a Mixed unit makes "Orky" sense "Add more Shootas to that Choppa boy unit, till they gitz Good Dakka!"

I mean I think an easier fix would be to either make the Banner Nob just +1 to hit in general, or to have made Boyz mobz get +1 to hit at 20 or more models, rather than +1 attack, and make the banner +1 attack.

It makes choppa boyz slightly worse in combat (they average 75 hits, instead of 80), but make their pistol shots hit on a 4+. Which averages out to 90 S4 hits in total. Shoota boyz end up averaging 80 S4 hits either way (between shooting and charging). The difference is that they can average more hit when they are shooting, which for a unit you want shooting is a good thing. It would also make special weapons more desirable.

another element they could add to ork weapons is making them more accurate up close. +1 to hit at half distance as an army wide special rule.

Also kinda of related - I think it would be totally acceptable for war-bosses and big mechs to hit on 4's or even 3's.

I know that PKs aren't the powerhouses they used to be, but I had a thought about how to improve them at least a little bit (other than a price drop). Make units in mega-armor ignore the to-hit penalty to attacks. It makes sense for the armor's stabilizers to make up for the inaccuracy of such an unwieldy weapon, and makes mega-armor a better choice on HQs as well as making MANZ be able to rip and tear like they should.

They need the same thing all orks need: BS 4+.
Just for starters..