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Ive given up really. Ive tried a lot of different lists without those three in the title and have had little to no luck in winning and not really enjoying Guard whatsoever. I've lost most of my games this edition hell so far. What do I do?

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Ive given up really. Ive tried a lot of different lists without those three in the title and have had little to no luck in winning and not really enjoying Guard whatsoever. I've lost most of my games this edition hell so far. What do I do?

What are you running instead? And at what point level?

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Ive given up really. Ive tried a lot of different lists without those three in the title and have had little to no luck in winning and not really enjoying Guard whatsoever. I've lost most of my games this edition hell so far. What do I do?

Have you tried infantry squad skirmish lines with tanks and artillery backup? Conscripts are only 1ppm cheaper than normal guardsmen. You can still do a screen with them too. Then pound the crap out of the enemy with basilisks, manticores, heavy weapon teams. . .

What sort of armies are trouncing you? Getting trounced over and over can definitely be soul crushing.

I don't use any of these and I'm doing fine.
Instead I use:

Heavy weapon teams
Sentinels
Manticore
Wyverns
Infantry squads
Company commanders
Command squads plus commander in Valkyries

Buy those three things and stop losing?

I don't have any of those 3 and I went to a local 1500 point tournament a couple of weeks ago and won 2/3 of my games. The third (maelstrom) screwed me on objectives.

I brought:
Creed
Company commander
2 command squads (vox, plasma gun, lascannon/autocannon)
3 vet squads (vox, 3 plasma, missile launcher)
Armoured sentinel (plasma)
Pask in vanquisher (lascannon, multimeltas, HK)
LRBT (lascannon)
Punisher (3 HBs)
Wyvern
Chimera (2 HBs)
Vindicare assassin

nekooni wrote:
I don't use any of these and I'm doing fine.
Instead I use:

Heavy weapon teams
Sentinels
Manticore
Wyverns
Infantry squads
Company commanders
Command squads plus commander in Valkyries

Was in a rush, so explanation was missing:

HWTs, Manticores, Wyverns and most of the Infantry Squads (and at least enough Commanders to order the HWTs around) build a fort in one corner of the table. The Sentinels (usually armoured ones) set up as a protective screen to keep anyone from Deep Striking close to the fort.
Two Command Squads with either meltas or plasmaguns (i tend to mix it, so one meltasquad and one plasmasquad) plus one Commander go into a Valkyrie and drop into the face of the biggest and baddest thing the enemy brought to the table. If I can make the drop with only flying 20'', even better. I tend to run this only once, but I've also run this with two Valks, 4 Squads and 2 Commanders.
I also like to add in something non-IG to fix what's missing, e.g. Celestine for something fast and melee-capable, or a Vindicare to snipe Characters.

I run 3 Leman russ battle tanks, 4 chimeras, 8 infantry squads and 3 commanders with command squads (at 1750p, ditch a russ and some infantry at 1500p). This has seen good success in 8th, and in 7th actually. I won a local tournament with it. It's bad at killing enemies but it's so mobile that more often then not I win on objectives and can hold my own.
Note the complete lack of veterans. I wanted a fluffy platoon based guard list. I have some Valkyries, psykers, sentinels and scions I bring out every now and then, but that's my core list. I find it great fun to play.

Usually play around 75 to 100 Pwr Level. Last couple of games I had three tanks, a Chimera, tons of Infantry squads, a Hvy Wep. Mortar team, Commissar, and a few P. Comms. I don't got much these days to afford new stuff, especially now that I've gotten into Bolt Action.

You can make an artillery gunline using Infantry instead of Conscripts. It's 100-200 points less efficient, but it's not bad.

CC
CC
Harker
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Wyvern
Wyvern
Wyvern

CC
CC
Commissar
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Infantry
Wyvern
Wyvern
Wyvern

Lord Commissar
Manticore
Manticore
Manticore
Manticore
Manticore

Or something along those lines would probably work.

i can't buy anything more. Money is hard and I don't have the disposable income right now for Harker, that many Manticores and Wyverns, and some more Infantry.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
i can't buy anything more. Money is hard and I don't have the disposable income right now for Harker, that many Manticores and Wyverns, and some more Infantry.

You can use anything in the heavy support options, really. Leman Russes, Baslisks, whatever.

The key is to get yourself a lot of riflemen to take the place of the Conscripts and perform their screening function. Guardsmen aren't a whole lot worse than Conscripts, but you're going to fun afoul of detachment sizes.

I wish we had our larger squad sizes back :(

Really right now I got Three Russes, Two Officers, plenty of Squads with a mix of the usual special weapons, a Commissar, a Chimera, Two Mortar, Two AutoCannons, a Lascannon, and a Hvy Bolter.

I have one Sentinel in the works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Buy those three things and stop losing?

And hear people bitch that I am OP?

The problem is, you have a big lack of firepower.

How are your russes configured and are the weapons glued in or just slotted into place?

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I wish we had our larger squad sizes back :(

Really right now I got Three Russes, Two Officers, plenty of Squads with a mix of the usual special weapons, a Commissar, a Chimera, Two Mortar, Two AutoCannons, a Lascannon, and a Hvy Bolter.

I have one Sentinel in the works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Buy those three things and stop losing?

And hear people bitch that I am OP?

Oh...

I can't really tell you what to do with that.

I'd start with a Battalion with:
Company Commander [30]
Company Commander [30]
Commissar [31]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]

While ordinarily I'd keep the infantry cheap since it's going to be doing a lot of dying, you may need upgrades because the rest of your army is kind of lacking. Flamers may be good to invest in, and Plasma will help you out offensively, but I'd pass on pretty much anything else.

You look like you're hurting for antitank, so I'd start your support element with a Tank Command Battle Tank with Lascannon, Multimeltas, Storm Bolter, and H-K missile and build your spearhead detachment from there

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The problem is, you have a big lack of firepower.

How are your russes configured and are the weapons glued in or just slotted into place?

No, just slotted. Last game i had Pask in Punisher, a Tank Comm. In a Vanqisher, and a Russ with the Big Plasma getting rerolls. Only really Pask did something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I wish we had our larger squad sizes back :(

Really right now I got Three Russes, Two Officers, plenty of Squads with a mix of the usual special weapons, a Commissar, a Chimera, Two Mortar, Two AutoCannons, a Lascannon, and a Hvy Bolter.

I have one Sentinel in the works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Buy those three things and stop losing?

And hear people bitch that I am OP?

Oh...

I can't really tell you what to do with that.

I'd start with a Battalion with:
Company Commander [30]
Company Commander [30]
Commissar [31]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]

While ordinarily I'd keep the infantry cheap since it's going to be doing a lot of dying, you may need upgrades because the rest of your army is kind of lacking. Flamers may be good to invest in, and Plasma will help you out offensively, but I'd pass on pretty much anything else.

You look like you're hurting for antitank, so I'd start your support element with a Tank Command Battle Tank with Lascannon, Multimeltas, Storm Bolter, and H-K missile and build your spearhead detachment from there

That may work, I do have already a bit of flamers and Plasma on my troops already. As well as melta which I tend to save for Vets coming in close when I do use a squad of vets.

Well, if you only own just enough models to field your army, can't buy anything, and nothing is magnetized then there is nothing you can do.

After all, you're basically saying "help me adjust my army, by the way I have absolutely zero room to make any adjustments".

I suppose I can suggest playing at lower point levels, since if then if you drop your worst units first, losing those points will hurt your opponents more than it will hurt you.

Now, if you do have spare models lying around and/or the ability to do weapon swaps, I recommend digging up any Basilisks you can find since they are a good substitute for manticores. Get as many plasma guns as you can on your infantry squads. Give them lascannons if you want them to camp, heavy bolters if you want them to move. Remember that the team taking a heavy weapon doesn't trade in their lasguns.

If you want to field chimeras, the closest thing to a good use for them would be to deliver two plasma (or melta, but I prefer plasma) command squads supported by an officer. The whole package fits in one chimera. Almost as good as a scion strike there, and after they get shot to pieces any survivors can hop back in the chimera to man the lasgun arrays.

Remember that conscripts, infantry, and veterans all use the exact same model (with the caveat that conscripts can only use the ones with lasguns). If you have infantry, you have conscripts and veterans too. By extension that means you also have command squads, they just haven't been told about their "promotion" yet.

But yeah if you have zero spare models and zero swappable bits, the only advice I can give is "play at lower points levels, your opponent will have to trim more than you."

 Nerak wrote:
I run 3 Leman russ battle tanks, 4 chimeras, 8 infantry squads and 3 commanders with command squads (at 1750p, ditch a russ and some infantry at 1500p). This has seen good success in 8th, and in 7th actually. I won a local tournament with it. It's bad at killing enemies but it's so mobile that more often then not I win on objectives and can hold my own.
Note the complete lack of veterans. I wanted a fluffy platoon based guard list. I have some Valkyries, psykers, sentinels and scions I bring out every now and then, but that's my core list. I find it great fun to play.

This is killer. Not a named character in sight. You must play well ... Bravo. I would love to play against such an army.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The problem is, you have a big lack of firepower.

How are your russes configured and are the weapons glued in or just slotted into place?

No, just slotted. Last game i had Pask in Punisher, a Tank Comm. In a Vanqisher, and a Russ with the Big Plasma getting rerolls. Only really Pask did something.

So, first of all, don't run any non-commander/pask russes. Ditch the vanquisher - it's only useful at all with the coax and you don't want to use FW (it's not great even then).

You got it wrong, i do have swappable parts. I didn't glue em down just fixed them so I can slot them in easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The problem is, you have a big lack of firepower.

How are your russes configured and are the weapons glued in or just slotted into place?

No, just slotted. Last game i had Pask in Punisher, a Tank Comm. In a Vanqisher, and a Russ with the Big Plasma getting rerolls. Only really Pask did something.

So, first of all, don't run any non-commander/pask russes. Ditch the vanquisher - it's only useful at all with the coax and you don't want to use FW (it's not great even then).

Yea, not even the tank comm. hit anything really too. It was worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Be at note I can proxy some Ogryn's wth some fantasy stuff I got if that means much of anything.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The problem is, you have a big lack of firepower.

How are your russes configured and are the weapons glued in or just slotted into place?

No, just slotted. Last game i had Pask in Punisher, a Tank Comm. In a Vanqisher, and a Russ with the Big Plasma getting rerolls. Only really Pask did something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I wish we had our larger squad sizes back :(

Really right now I got Three Russes, Two Officers, plenty of Squads with a mix of the usual special weapons, a Commissar, a Chimera, Two Mortar, Two AutoCannons, a Lascannon, and a Hvy Bolter.

I have one Sentinel in the works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Buy those three things and stop losing?

And hear people bitch that I am OP?

Oh...

I can't really tell you what to do with that.

I'd start with a Battalion with:
Company Commander [30]
Company Commander [30]
Commissar [31]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]

While ordinarily I'd keep the infantry cheap since it's going to be doing a lot of dying, you may need upgrades because the rest of your army is kind of lacking. Flamers may be good to invest in, and Plasma will help you out offensively, but I'd pass on pretty much anything else.

You look like you're hurting for antitank, so I'd start your support element with a Tank Command Battle Tank with Lascannon, Multimeltas, Storm Bolter, and H-K missile and build your spearhead detachment from there

That may work, I do have already a bit of flamers and Plasma on my troops already. As well as melta which I tend to save for Vets coming in close when I do use a squad of vets.

Careful with upgrades to the riflemen. They die very easily, and their primary purpose is to die instead of your support elements dying. Make sure they're going to get value out of the upgrades you bought, and don't upgrade just because you can. Make sure that any upgrades enhance their intended role, and enhance it more than just buying more infantry.

How's this? It's a double brigade plus a vanguard, so 22 command points I'm pretty sure guard is not just all about the scions, conscripts and FW

HQs
Company commander 30pts
Company commander 30pts
Company commander 30pts
Primaris psyker 40pts
Primaris psyker 40pts
Primaris psyker 40pts
Primaris psyker 40pts

Elites
Commissar 31pts
Commissar 31pts
Commissar 31pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts

Troops
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and heavy bolter 49pts
Infantry squad with bolter and heavy bolter 49pts

Fast attack
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts

Heavy support
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts

 DoomMouse wrote:
How's this? It's a double brigade plus a vanguard, so 22 command points I'm pretty sure guard is not just all about the scions, conscripts and FW

HQs
Company commander 30pts
Company commander 30pts
Company commander 30pts
Primaris psyker 40pts
Primaris psyker 40pts
Primaris psyker 40pts
Primaris psyker 40pts

Elites
Commissar 31pts
Commissar 31pts
Commissar 31pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts
Astropath with laspistol 15pts

Troops
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and plasma gun 48pts
Infantry squad with bolter and heavy bolter 49pts
Infantry squad with bolter and heavy bolter 49pts

Fast attack
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts
5 Rough riders with 2 plasma guns 60pts

Heavy support
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts
HWS with 2 mortars and lascannon 42pts

Well... okay...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
The problem is, you have a big lack of firepower.

How are your russes configured and are the weapons glued in or just slotted into place?

No, just slotted. Last game i had Pask in Punisher, a Tank Comm. In a Vanqisher, and a Russ with the Big Plasma getting rerolls. Only really Pask did something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
I wish we had our larger squad sizes back :(

Really right now I got Three Russes, Two Officers, plenty of Squads with a mix of the usual special weapons, a Commissar, a Chimera, Two Mortar, Two AutoCannons, a Lascannon, and a Hvy Bolter.

I have one Sentinel in the works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Buy those three things and stop losing?

And hear people bitch that I am OP?

Oh...

I can't really tell you what to do with that.

I'd start with a Battalion with:
Company Commander [30]
Company Commander [30]
Commissar [31]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]
Infantry [40]

While ordinarily I'd keep the infantry cheap since it's going to be doing a lot of dying, you may need upgrades because the rest of your army is kind of lacking. Flamers may be good to invest in, and Plasma will help you out offensively, but I'd pass on pretty much anything else.

You look like you're hurting for antitank, so I'd start your support element with a Tank Command Battle Tank with Lascannon, Multimeltas, Storm Bolter, and H-K missile and build your spearhead detachment from there

That may work, I do have already a bit of flamers and Plasma on my troops already. As well as melta which I tend to save for Vets coming in close when I do use a squad of vets.

Careful with upgrades to the riflemen. They die very easily, and their primary purpose is to die instead of your support elements dying. Make sure they're going to get value out of the upgrades you bought, and don't upgrade just because you can. Make sure that any upgrades enhance their intended role, and enhance it more than just buying more infantry.

I know, pick and chose. Gotcha.

Infantry squads work great with plasma pistol & gun. It's a minimal investment and lets them punch well above their weight. Re-rolls are easy to come by as well, and even if you don't have them losing a GM to overcharge isn't a big loss points wise.

Also consider a screen of Scout Sentinels with heavy flamers scouted out into no mans land after deployment. Behind that have your infantry squads, and behind that have your big guns.

Company Commander [3]
Company Commander [3]
Commissar [2]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Hvy. Wep. Squad [3]
Hvy. Wep. Squad [3]
Command Squad[2]

This is for a 40 Power lvl game.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Company Commander [3]
Company Commander [3]
Commissar [2]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Hvy. Wep. Squad [3]
Hvy. Wep. Squad [3]
Command Squad[2]

This is for a 40 Power lvl game.

That's 34 PL. What's going in the remaining 6 PL?


Note that Guardsmen have very poor PL-efficiency. Their points-efficiency is pretty good, but their PL-efficiency isn't good at all.

Since upgrades are free, make sure you buy every upgrade they can have, too.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Company Commander [3]
Company Commander [3]
Commissar [2]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Hvy. Wep. Squad [3]
Hvy. Wep. Squad [3]
Command Squad[2]

This is for a 40 Power lvl game.

That's 34 PL. What's going in the remaining 6 PL?


Note that Guardsmen have very poor PL-efficiency. Their points-efficiency is pretty good, but their PL-efficiency isn't good at all.

Since upgrades are free, make sure you buy every upgrade they can have, too.

Most of my club plays power level these days, Most had given up on 40k for awhile and only now coming back (having played AoS and Malifaux heavily here instead).

Thanks for pointing this out, didn't see that 'till now. Not sure really what to put in. Don't really got much else beside that other than my tanks and transport left.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Company Commander [3]
Company Commander [3]
Commissar [2]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Infantry [3]
Hvy. Wep. Squad [3]
Hvy. Wep. Squad [3]
Command Squad[2]

This is for a 40 Power lvl game.

That's 34 PL. What's going in the remaining 6 PL?


Note that Guardsmen have very poor PL-efficiency. Their points-efficiency is pretty good, but their PL-efficiency isn't good at all.

Since upgrades are free, make sure you buy every upgrade they can have, too.

Most of my club plays power level these days, Most had given up on 40k for awhile and only now coming back (having played AoS and Malifaux heavily here instead).

Thanks for pointing this out, didn't see that 'till now. Not sure really what to put in. Don't really got much else beside that other than my tanks and transport left.

Okay, Cool.

How does this sound?

Battalion, 3CP
3 - Company Commander, Boltgun, Power Axe
3 - Company Commander, Boltgun, Power Axe
13 - Tank Commander Battle Tank, Multimelta Sponsons, Lascannon, Storm Bolter, Hunter-Killer Missile
3 - Infantry, Plasmagun, Lascannon, Vox Caster, Boltgun, Power Axe
3 - Infantry, Plasmagun, Autocannon, Vox Caster, Boltgun, Power Axe
3 - Infantry, Plasmagun, Autocannon, Vox Caster, Boltgun, Power Axe
3 - Command Squad, Plasmagun, Plasmagun, Plasmagun, Plasmagun
3 - Command Squad, Plasmagun, Plasmagun, Plasmagun, Plasmagun
5 - Chimera, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter, Hunter-Killer Missile
39PL

It's not the greatest thing I've cooked up, but it makes use of what you described yourself as owning. It's light on anti-infantry, and you may want to filter in some Flamers if you're worried about facing Orks, Tyranids, or another IG player, but otherwise this should do fairly okay.


Alternatively, since 40PL is really small, you can bank on the enemy not having enough melee and anti-tank power:

Patrol, 0CP
13 - Tank Commander Battle Tank, Multimelta Sponsons, Lascannon, Storm Bolter, Hunter-Killer Missile
3 - Infantry Squad, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Boltgun, Power Axe
11 - Battle Tank, Multimelta Sponsons, Lascannon, Storm Bolter, Hunter-Killer Missile
12 - Punisher, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter, Hunter-Killer Missile

I wouldn't use this if your enemy is known ahead of time to be Sisters, Orks, or Tyranids, or to be fielding units from those armies, because you're going to lose outright. Clever placement can keep Orks at bay, maybe, but you're giving up control on the board and thus the objectives.

Or, if mechvets is more your speed, you can try stuffing a bunch of Command Squads into Chimerae. You have the same problems that the tank list does, but you're running more afoul of list building restrictions, and drop-scions would be strictly superior.



If you're going to insist on not fielding Scions or Conscripts, you're going to definitely want Manticores, and I'd also recommend getting a few more Lascannons and at least 1 more Mortar to fill out a Mortar Squad. As I said, you can handle it with Guardsmen if you're using points, but Guardsmen pay twice to three times the cost per body in PL compared to Conscripts, so you need them if you want your PL gunline to be any good. You can get away without Conscripts by not being a gunline.

Thanks Katherine, you've been a great help. The guy Im playing is the club owner with Grey knight. Ive beaten him twice now, with 15 to 20 PL, trying to teach him to play again after a leave of absence from 40k. Problem is though outside of maybe my first against Tyranids and the two GKs I've lost every other time. Mostly against the same guy with Salamanders, beating me every time. Last time, almost quit altogether with a pure dreadnought army he had, most FW stuff. Killed only one and and wounded slightly another with Pask. My other three tanks, one the TC and a regular Russ did gak.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
Thanks Katherine, you've been a great help. The guy Im playing is the club owner with Grey knight. Ive beaten him twice now, with 15 to 20 PL, trying to teach him to play again after a leave of absence from 40k. Problem is though outside of maybe my first against Tyranids and the two GKs I've lost every other time. Mostly against the same guy with Salamanders, beating me every time. Last time, almost quit altogether with a pure dreadnought army he had, most FW stuff. Killed only one and and wounded slightly another with Pask. My other three tanks, one the TC and a regular Russ did gak.

That might be not your fault. I've stopped using my chapter tactic as well as the relics when I play someone who doesn't have a codex yet, and after the last game I'm also considering dropping the marine stratagems, too - I've hung onto them cause they're fun, but I feel like they're still too powerful.