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 Grimskul wrote:

 davou wrote:
shoota boys arent a problem, but something certainly needs to be done to make taking more numberous small squads appealing.

Mob rule, green tide, Mob up and D jump all work against MSU speedfreak style lsits.

As previously discussed, as far as speed freaks go, warbikers lack both good enough durability

Warbikers arent the only component of speed freaks, boys play a big part too. And as it stands, all the incentive to take boys pushes them towards large unwieldy slow mobs. You literally have to sacrifice LD, attacks, strategems and ironically speed in order to play smaller 'fast' mobs of boys sine the larger groups can move around the table instantly.

Bikes may need a fix, butboys are hardly right either. Not everyone wants to play tide, and its been shoveled at us for years.

 davou wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 davou wrote:
shoota boys arent a problem, but something certainly needs to be done to make taking more numberous small squads appealing.

Mob rule, green tide, Mob up and D jump all work against MSU speedfreak style lsits.

As previously discussed, as far as speed freaks go, warbikers lack both good enough durability

Warbikers arent the only component of speed freaks, boys play a big part too. And as it stands, all the incentive to take boys pushes them towards large unwieldy slow mobs. You literally have to sacrifice LD, attacks, strategems and ironically speed in order to play smaller 'fast' mobs of boys sine the larger groups can move around the table instantly.

Bikes may need a fix, butboys are hardly right either. Not everyone wants to play tide, and its been shoveled at us for years.

Right. But the key aspect of boyz in speed freaks armies is largely being mechanized and that won't be solved until the transports themselves are fixed, which was the core about why I went to talk about how we would change transports. I don't think boyz need anymore baseline bonuses to units and stuff like using Mob Up stratagem (and likely other stratagems when the codex is released) after deploying two units is a way to bypass that. At the end of the day, if your transport options suck, it doesn't matter if boyz are okay in small numbers, because you won't have a way to fully utilize them.

 Grimskul wrote:
Right. But the key aspect of boyz in speed freaks armies is largely being mechanized and that won't be solved until the transports themselves are fixed, which was the core about why I went to talk about how we would change transports. I don't think boyz need anymore baseline bonuses to units and stuff like using Mob Up stratagem (and likely other stratagems when the codex is released) after deploying two units is a way to bypass that. At the end of the day, if your transport options suck, it doesn't matter if boyz are okay in small numbers, because you won't have a way to fully utilize them.

Exactly this. Speed Freak Boyz need a decent transport that we currently lack. The suggestions to fix Trukks and Battlewagons are key in this regard.

Biker Mobz certainly have their place in a Speed Freakz list mind, as do Buggies, Trakks, Deff Koptas, our flyers and (in my opinion to a lesser extent) Storm Boyz.

Out of these only Buggies, Trakks and Storm Boyz are somewhat viable while the other units languish.

For the plane that carries a KFF... what if every turn it could 'shoot' the kff bubble anywhere on the board? Like place a token, and then for the next round anything within range of the token gets the kff safe?

That would be awesome. I like.

 davou wrote:
For the plane that carries a KFF... what if every turn it could 'shoot' the kff bubble anywhere on the board? Like place a token, and then for the next round anything within range of the token gets the kff safe?

Like, it stays at a place you shot it at, until the start of your turn while flyer has none? It is a very orky idea. I love it.

About big shootas - rokkits problem. What if you could choose profile of rapid fire 3 and assault 3? The more I’m thinking about it, the more I like this idea.

If you are sufficiently close you can double your shots and drown enemy in dakka, provided that you haven’t advanced? So 18” is lethal range for big shootas and 12” for Rokkits. Big shoota becomes nastier on vehicles.

 JawRippa wrote:

 davou wrote:
For the plane that carries a KFF... what if every turn it could 'shoot' the kff bubble anywhere on the board? Like place a token, and then for the next round anything within range of the token gets the kff safe?

Like, it stays at a place you shot it at, until the start of your turn while flyer has none? It is a very orky idea. I love it.

Kinda like a bubble chukka, except it protects the spot it lands on. The plane could shoot it at the floor under itself if it needed protecting, but more an aerial support type unit.

 davou wrote:

 JawRippa wrote:

 davou wrote:
For the plane that carries a KFF... what if every turn it could 'shoot' the kff bubble anywhere on the board? Like place a token, and then for the next round anything within range of the token gets the kff safe?

Like, it stays at a place you shot it at, until the start of your turn while flyer has none? It is a very orky idea. I love it.

Kinda like a bubble chukka, except it protects the spot it lands on. The plane could shoot it at the floor under itself if it needed protecting, but more an aerial support type unit.

Maybe Morkanaft could get a similar ability? More tactical options = more variety. Although there is a downside to this, while this idea is original, it buffs jumping 30-40 boys even more which we should avoid. Okay, let me flesh it out:

Juiced Kustom Force Field: A vehicle has a 5++ save. At the end of your movement phase you may place a token anywhere on the field further away than 9" but closer than 36" within LOS of that vehicle which lasts until the start of your next turn. Vehicle counts as not having an invulnerable save until the start of your next turn. Wholy covered models within 9" of that token have a 5++.

"Further away than 9"..." part it there is so a vehicle can't keep shooting itself with KFF and give invul save to units around iself.

Has it been suggested to give green tide a range? Basically it'd be like Mob Rule where if a unit within 6" has more than 20 models, than you get +1 attack. It seems silly to me that 2 squads of Boyz, one with 30 and one with 19 that only the unit of 30 gets green tide. There's still lots of Orks there, there's still a tide.

I'm not really a competitive player much but seems good to me.

Wow, where to begin?
In no particular order:
Re rolls for our big/mek gunz back
More attacks for the deffdread
More shots for all our blast weapons
Lower cost for most (all?) of our vehicles
Cover save for bikers back
Let bikers shoot when they charge again
Better ballistic skill for Meks and big meks
Let kommandos take shootas
I'd like shootas to be rapid fire 24" like 3rd, but maybe rapid fire 2 now?
Big Shootas with more shots or an ap value
Burnas get an option for d6 hits, but can't be used in cc in the same turn
Looted tank!
A medium or heavy ork tank with no transport capacity
Ard boyz or eavy armour upgrade for boyz
Eavy armour on flashgitz
Better ballistic skill somehow for flashgitz
Characters for other klans
Grots grant cover saves to infantry and bikes behind them, but take wounds for successful saves
Grot blastas get a way to go to 18" (and maybe gain sniper?)
Burna boyz get cheaper or possibly get an eavy armour option

That's all for now, but I'm sure there's more

malcontent999 wrote:

Burna boyz get cheaper or possibly get an eavy armour option

I'd just be fine with burnas being proper flamers with D6 autohits.

Pretty much agree with the first post, I would add/change:

-Big Choppa and PK points are ok now (7 and 13) IMO
-Meganobz go down to 21 (26 with cybork body) same points as a Terminator, same save, dont get to deepstrike and teleport back but get better combat characteristics
-looted wagon back
-zogwort back
-a warlord trait that lets the Waaagh affect bikes, Deffkoptas, and buggies (of all kind)
Bubblechukka points gong down a lot (to 10-15) (kmk is 17 and is obviously better)
-grotsnik granting something that differentiates him from a regular Painboy
-open top leting orks disembark after moving

I dont think we are getting even half of what we are saying here but hey, dreaming is free right?

Heavy armour upgrade (4+) options for most units would be nice. Flash gitz, boyz, tankbustas come to mind.

Gitdakka wrote:
Heavy armour upgrade (4+) options for most units would be nice. Flash gitz, boyz, tankbustas come to mind.

I think that would be too much, nice but too much and wouldn't for with the existing models. It'd be great for boyz like the old days and they could I suppose bring in new tank buster models with heavier armour, would make sense fluff wise. At the minute I think it would be a basic auto include if it was available for the whole army and would change their style to ouch. Personal option.

Flash gitz should have the 4+ save by default, they're nobz with big weapons and nobz already are 4+.

 Blackie wrote:
Flash gitz should have the 4+ save by default, they're nobz with big weapons and nobz already are 4+.

This all day.

It makes no sense they are 6+. Almost feels like a typo.

It doesn't seem to daft to me. A lot more armour on the nob models than on the flashgitz, they pretty much only have shoulder pads, the nobz have plates all over. You dont have to build them that way as heavy armour was an option. Classically flash gitz weren't nobz just rich successful orks.

Better ballistic skill somehow for flashgitz

Don't they already have 4+ or did I misplay that last game I played.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Better ballistic skill somehow for flashgitz

Don't they already have 4+ or did I misplay that last game I played.

You are correct, they do have BS4+. What they really need is for their guns to be Assault again or have access to something like gitfindas that helps mitigate the range issue or -1 to hit penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Add in a base 4+ save and they might be worth taking.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Better ballistic skill somehow for flashgitz

Don't they already have 4+ or did I misplay that last game I played.

You are correct, they do have BS4+. What they really need is for their guns to be Assault again or have access to something like gitfindas that helps mitigate the range issue or -1 to hit penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Add in a base 4+ save and they might be worth taking.

I had them inside a bastion - it was quite fun

Andykp wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Heavy armour upgrade (4+) options for most units would be nice. Flash gitz, boyz, tankbustas come to mind.

I think that would be too much, nice but too much and wouldn't for with the existing models. It'd be great for boyz like the old days and they could I suppose bring in new tank buster models with heavier armour, would make sense fluff wise. At the minute I think it would be a basic auto include if it was available for the whole army and would change their style to ouch. Personal option.

\

As opposed to now where Tank Bustas are required to be in a trukk or a Wagon because they disappear in a second otherwise? So it makes more sense to give them a 80-160pt tax? Which btw ruins the entire army if you wanted foot sloggin because you just handed your opponents anti-tank weapons a golden target.

As for Flashgitz, thats fine, you can go ahead and not have them get a 4+ save, just reduce their cost by about 50% to make them worth taking outside of a vehicle, of course in doing so you just made them spammable inside a vehicle and ruined the game. Flashgitz and Bustas require a transport because of how expensive they are and how garbage their durability is. So you have 3 choices.

1: Give them armor (I would argue 3+ but I would settle for 4+)
2: Give them a massive pts decrease to make it possible to foot slog them and have them have enough models left over to actually do something
3: Get rid of them entirely because NOBODY takes flashgitz in competitive games and only takes Tankbustas because its literally our only worthwhile anti-tank weapons beyond KMKs.

I'd like 3+ on flash gitz, fluffwise it would make sense since they're rich nobz and they have the best equipment including armors. But with a 3+ armor they could also be played as footsloggers: a unit in cover gets 2+ save with ammo runts becomes durable enough to justify it, and makes sense since heavy weapons love firing from an appropriate spot, they're not meant to be carried in transports.

Trukks and BWs should be much cheaper, like 40% cheaper. Eventually even with a worse profile but a trukk can't be more expensive than a BS3+ T7 3+ save rhino. It shouldn't even be slightly cheaper but way cheaper.

Yeah, but we are orks. Orks dont get nice things.
We will be lucky if we get some minor point decreases and a 5++ for our characters.
Its not surprising how unbalanced things are (eg rhino vs trukk) given how they cant even write properly

I just read trhough 3rd ed. codex armageddon, where a speed freaks army was introduced. One cool thing they had was gun trukks. They are trukks with no transport capacity, and has a big gun or mek gun attached. Taken in units 1-3. Such a unit would be really sweet in this edition too.
We have no proper tank/light tank without transport capacity.

Gitdakka wrote:
I just read trhough 3rd ed. codex armageddon, where a speed freaks army was introduced. One cool thing they had was gun trukks. They are trukks with no transport capacity, and has a big gun or mek gun attached. Taken in units 1-3. Such a unit would be really sweet in this edition too.
We have no proper tank/light tank without transport capacity.

They are FW only, and they aren't that wonderful honestly, a lot better then trukkz right now but that is like saying having your fingers ripped off is better then losing the whole hand.

I don't know, they have the same transport capacity than a trukk but they cost like a BW without being so resilient. They can have one very good weapon though, the supa skorcha. I'm not sold on big trakks, but I've got no real experience with them. They look ok to carry shooty units like bustas, well just them since lootas and gitz carry heavy weapons and are not that good anyway. Only 6 dudes allowed to be embarked with a supa skorcha, if the vehicles had a transport capacity of 10-12 even with that weapon it could be a decent option to consider. At the moment I'd take trukks for the bustas everytime.

The 5th-7th edition gun wagon was very good.

I’ve seen a suggestion about grots in this thread : something along the lines of “ If unit of gretchin is within 3” of any ork infantry unit during enemy shooting phase after enemy has made To Hit rolls you may roll a D6 for any hit: on 4+ the shot is ignored and gretchin squad suffers a mortal wound. “

The more I think about it , the more I’m starting to like it. Not only it gives grots a purpose, but also it indirectly buffs other units like flashgits, tankbustas and lootas. Now they have a decent chance of surviving enemy shooting if they are bubblewrapped by grots.

Gorkanaught what would you change to make it viable? 50 point decrease in my opinion

ballzonya wrote:
Gorkanaught what would you change to make it viable? 50 point decrease in my opinion

I'd even say a 100 points decrease. The gorkanaut is a slow CC unit with no invuln, it should cost around 250-270 points at most. All walkers need a huge reduction in points: killa kanz around 35-40 including weapons and dread approx 90 full kitted. The stompa should be 500 points, maybe even 450 since other superheavies are way more effective and doesn't cost more than 500-550 points.

 Blackie wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
Gorkanaught what would you change to make it viable? 50 point decrease in my opinion

I'd even say a 100 points decrease. The gorkanaut is a slow CC unit with no invuln, it should cost around 250-270 points at most. All walkers need a huge reduction in points: killa kanz around 35-40 including weapons and dread approx 90 full kitted. The stompa should be 500 points, maybe even 450 since other superheavies are way more effective and doesn't cost more than 500-550 points.

Agreed, for it to stay at the current price point they'd need a significant damage/durability boost. The Deffstorm mega-shoota should have 18 shots rather than 3D6, with 2 damage each per shot. It should have either a built in invuln. save (like Ramshackle Monster for the Meka Dredz) or at least an upped version of the Ramshackle rule from Trukks (which all Ork vehicles should have honestly). If not that, at least some type of aura boost since something that big and stompy should make the boyz whoop and cheer, allowing Ork units to re-roll failed hit rolls of one or something.