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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
so can someone explain why the catachans get a rule that only affects vehicles with artillery? and nothing to do with stealth?

Because writing rules is hard, and when every special rule in 8th Ed is a variation on "Get a re-roll", "Get +1/-1 to something" and "Causes Mortal Wounds", it's hard to make that square Catachan peg fit into the round 8th Ed hole.

Truthfully, I figured they were the stealth guys, so they'd get the '-1 to hit at 12" or more' rule more or less by default. But then, I have a hard time seeing the Rambo army as a square peg. Just a boring anachronism.

Catachans are based on the US Military during the Vietnam war. Rambo is an influence but not the whole idea behind them. Just the stereotype.

An Infantry army with artillery support is a very fluffy Catachan army.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Catachans are based on the US Military during the Vietnam war. Rambo is an influence but not the whole idea behind them. Just the stereotype.

An Infantry army with artillery support is a very fluffy Catachan army.

This. I suggest people read up on the various Guard regiment combat doctrines in the fluff. It might go someway to explain why GW chose them, rather than "x regiment gets re-rolls to y? That doesn't make sense!" Every. Other. Post.

If I were to hazard a guess what may be the theme with the other armies

Cadians: DISCIPLINE+1
Valhallans: Human wave tactics
Tallarn: Hit and run
Mordians: FRFSRF+1
Vostroyans: Master-crafted weapons or better armour saves (would be nice to have carapace again!)
Steel Legion: MAKE THE CHIMERA GREAT AGAIN
Militarum Tempestus: Strike true and strike with precision!

 BrookM wrote:
If I were to hazard a guess what may be the theme with the other armies

Cadians: DISCIPLINE+1
Valhallans: Human wave tactics
Tallarn: Hit and run
Mordians: FRFSRF+1
Vostroyans: Master-crafted weapons or better armour saves (would be nice to have carapace again!)
Steel Legion: MAKE THE CHIMERA GREAT AGAIN
Militarum Tempestus: Strike true and strike with precision!

Yeah man, my Scions need some help in the form of buffs. They don't want to be the best unit in the world, they want to be the best unit in the whole universe. How about every 6 to wound causes a mortal wound in addition to normal damage? Or how about an automatic re-roll 1's to hit?

The Catachan one is really sweet for the Shadowsword. Or the Hellhounds, or Sentinels with heavy flamers. It still won't make Leman Russes good though.

People are wondering why catachans get a trait that affects their vehicles, as they aren't known for using vehicles much. It's a fair question.

I'd speculate that the reason is every regiment will get a trait that has this kind of dual effect on infantry and vehicles. It would be weird if catachans stood out as having better tanks, but not if it's the template that everyone follows.

And if that is the case, then a trait that improves the effect of their flamers and explosions makes sense for catachans.

 Therion wrote:
Yeah man, my Scions need some help in the form of buffs. They don't want to be the best unit in the world, they want to be the best unit in the whole universe. How about every 6 to wound causes a mortal wound in addition to normal damage? Or how about an automatic re-roll 1's to hit?

The Catachan one is really sweet for the Shadowsword. Or the Hellhounds, or Sentinels with heavy flamers. It still won't make Leman Russes good though.

I am nervous to see what they're planning to do with the Scions, if you want to play them battle-forged there is already very little they can take (Commissars, Tempestor Prime, Command Squad, Scions Squad and Taurox Prime), but it's either a buff to shooting or a buff to their deep-striking shenanigans if I were to hazard a guess. Or just make them cheaper, 10 pts per Scion isn't bad, but it's still a fething struggle to wound a lot of stuff out there with a S3 hellgun.

I'd be careful with the "On a 6 you also get a Mortal Wound" suggestion, it's a trigger issue for some posters around here.

Mandragola wrote:
People are wondering why catachans get a trait that affects their vehicles, as they aren't known for using vehicles much. It's a fair question.

I'd speculate that the reason is every regiment will get a trait that has this kind of dual effect on infantry and vehicles. It would be weird if catachans stood out as having better tanks, but not if it's the template that everyone follows.

And if that is the case, then a trait that improves the effect of their flamers and explosions makes sense for catachans.

The did mention that the Catachans have a special order that involves flamers, "Burn Them Out!" so we can also look forward to each of the regiments having at least one custom-tailored order of their own to go with the strategems and regimental doctrines.

Anyone else worried that GW is still going to let command squads be used as pure special weapon teams? Might as well delete the special weapon team entry.

I was really hoping they'd have done something about command squad spam.

But I like my cheap, deep-striking source of hotshot volleygun / plasma gun / flamer spam.

I mean, ooh-errrrr, +1 Ld and a medic that may, maaaaaaay bring back someone from the dead if you roll well enough?

BORING!

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
so can someone explain why the catachans get a rule that only affects vehicles with artillery? and nothing to do with stealth?

Because writing rules is hard, and when every special rule in 8th Ed is a variation on "Get a re-roll", "Get +1/-1 to something" and "Causes Mortal Wounds", it's hard to make that square Catachan peg fit into the round 8th Ed hole.

Truthfully, I figured they were the stealth guys, so they'd get the '-1 to hit at 12" or more' rule more or less by default. But then, I have a hard time seeing the Rambo army as a square peg. Just a boring anachronism.

I would hazard a guess that the stealth element might show up as the Catachan specific Warlord Trait, much like how the Metallica Forge World got the Ultramarine Chapter Tactic as their's (Units fall back and can fire normally at -1 BS).

I think the doctrine is appropriate since we are talking about the regiment based on the US in the Vietnam war, which was about close quarters fighting with strategic artillery and airstrikes as support. I wonder if this will make people take a second glance at their Valkyries (although I doubt it)

I'd be pretty surprised by that seeing as how all 3 major factions released so far have had an exact copy of not just the Raven Guard tactic but also their stratagem.

 BrookM wrote:
If I were to hazard a guess what may be the theme with the other armies

Cadians: DISCIPLINE+1
Valhallans: Human wave tactics
Tallarn: Hit and run
Mordians: FRFSRF+1
Vostroyans: Master-crafted weapons or better armour saves (would be nice to have carapace again!)
Steel Legion: MAKE THE CHIMERA GREAT AGAIN
Militarum Tempestus: Strike true and strike with precision!

My guess on Mordians is that if the entirety of a squad is in base contact with itself, it gets +1 attack and its lasguns get +1 to its rapidfire (so rapid fire 2 base, rapid fire 3 with FRFSRF). I guess we'll see later today when they do the community post though.

They said Mordians are better at defensive fire in the Catachan preview, so I bet it's going to be +1 to hit on overwatch and maybe an extra shot in Rapid Fire Range.

I don't think everything is going to be as big as Catachans - I think even GW realized just making Catachans +1 Strength and LD with officers nearby would've been a waste in an army like the Imperial Guard.

kurhanik wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
If I were to hazard a guess what may be the theme with the other armies

Cadians: DISCIPLINE+1
Valhallans: Human wave tactics
Tallarn: Hit and run
Mordians: FRFSRF+1
Vostroyans: Master-crafted weapons or better armour saves (would be nice to have carapace again!)
Steel Legion: MAKE THE CHIMERA GREAT AGAIN
Militarum Tempestus: Strike true and strike with precision!

My guess on Mordians is that if the entirety of a squad is in base contact with itself, it gets +1 attack and its lasguns get +1 to its rapidfire (so rapid fire 2 base, rapid fire 3 with FRFSRF). I guess we'll see later today when they do the community post though.

It would be fun to see Close Order Drill make a return, it certainly isn't as suicidal as it used to be! +1 A sounds feasible, though if I were really bold, even cooler would be to be able to hit assaulting units first as they plough into a wall of waiting bayonets.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I'd be pretty surprised by that seeing as how all 3 major factions released so far have had an exact copy of not just the Raven Guard tactic but also their stratagem.

Well, it'd either be tallarn or.... maybe scions? Be a bit redundant on militarum tempestus overall, but would fit fairly well.

Tallarn will in all likeliness be the hit and run faction, that's always been their thang.

Does your whole detachment need to be the same regiment to get the bonus? If so, that's a subtle nerf to Scions, as you'll want to have a detachment of your basic force, and then a scions one.

I have a feeling the reasoning behind the Catachan ability to reroll number of hits went something like this:

Designer A: Catachans should be really good at using flamers and flame weapons, what can we do to buff that for them?

Designer B: Well we could let them reroll the number of hits for flamer weapons.

Designer A: Let them reroll the number of hits for any weapon, got it.

Designer B: Wait, no...ah never mind, sure go ahead.

 Polonius wrote:
Does your whole detachment need to be the same regiment to get the bonus? If so, that's a subtle nerf to Scions, as you'll want to have a detachment of your basic force, and then a scions one.

We don't know, but this seems likely. It's how all the other codices have worked. Granted, Guard are probably going to need a more comprehensive way of excluding certain units from consideration when determining eligibility for traits, unless they want to make it hard to bring the many ASTRA MILITARUM units which don't have <REGIMENT>. But you'd think they'd do something like: "You get traits if the whole detachment is ASTRA MILITARUM and every unit with <REGIMENT> has the same one."

 vonjankmon wrote:
I have a feeling the reasoning behind the Catachan ability to reroll number of hits went something like this:

Designer A: Catachans should be really good at using flamers and flame weapons, what can we do to buff that for them?

Designer B: Well we could let them reroll the number of hits for flamer weapons.

Designer A: Let them reroll the number of hits for any weapon, got it.

Designer B: Wait, no...ah never mind, sure go ahead.

No Chapter Tactic type rule that we've seen so far has been limited in this way -- GW seems committed to making them apply very broadly. They use stratagems to emphasize a subfaction's favored units or weapons. It strikes me as pretty implausible that Catachans getting re-rolls on artillery just sort of snuck in without them thinking about it.

It will be interesting to see how they'll incorporate <MILITARUM AUXILLA> and <ADEPTUS ASTRA TELEPATHICA> into this whole thing without losing the buffs.

 BrookM wrote:
Tallarn will in all likeliness be the hit and run faction, that's always been their thang.

So scions, the close range shooters that already have deepstrike get the -1 outside 12" and infiltrate? That'd be kinda funny.

 vonjankmon wrote:
I have a feeling the reasoning behind the Catachan ability to reroll number of hits went something like this:

Designer A: Catachans should be really good at using flamers and flame weapons, what can we do to buff that for them?

Designer B: Well we could let them reroll the number of hits for flamer weapons.

Designer A: Let them reroll the number of hits for any weapon, got it.

Designer B: Wait, no...ah never mind, sure go ahead.

More likely it went..

Designer A: So Catachans, we need to do something to sell through some of the worst designed miniatures we ever produced. Because if we don't sell the stock that has been in the warehouse for the last decade the board says were getting our bonus paid.in them.

Designer B: Well we cannot push them to the "collectors" or painters unless we have some blind painter. We could ignore all previous examples of chapter tactics and give them rules that effect the whole army infantry and tanks.

Designer A: Hmmm that could work but let's stack 3 or 4 bonuses to appeal to the real power gamers, they will by multiples of any old gak if they think it gives them an advantage.

Designer B: Yeah your right we even had to restrict the amount of RATLINGS you can buy in one go from the webstore. What about the other armies though won't they be concerned about power creep?

Designer A: No worries it's a "Living" ruleset now we can give it a month and nerf them into the ground and they will just move on to the next op thing. He'll we already invalidated a big chunk of the 8th rule bòok turning it back to 7th within a few weeks of releasing it and they keep buying it without complaint.

Sean, do you not sometimes bore yourself? I can't believe you can make it to the end of your own posts.

Power creep? Until we know exactly what tactics they get, we already had admech get a couple powerful bonuses across their entire army, vehicles included. While catachan gives a lot of bonuses, for infantry it is str and ld. You still don't have much on orks, just makes melee guard worth looking at with lots of support. As for rerolling random shots, I'd take the - to incoming fire.

The only power creep thing I see is the super heavies getting he bonuses.

 Silentz wrote:
Sean, do you not sometimes bore yourself? I can't believe you can make it to the end of your own posts.

Yeah I can manage more than one sentence, but I will not rub it in I know some people struggle.

But care to refute my points?

The rules exist to sell God awful models with a high chance of them being subsequently nerfed due to "feedback" which will be shortly after they get rid of the on hand stock.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Why exactly does a Baneblade get regiment tactics but my daemon engines are left out to dry?

Because Guard can do all-tank armies, so they have to include a way for someone to play a Cadian tank army. It would be very strange for all a Regiment's special rules to vanish just because there are no infantry there.

But why don't Legion rules affect my Legion Daemon Engines/whatever. That's a separate, and no less valid question. They should. But they don't. Because reasons.

It's like people will say anything without thinking critically about it and fall back on their bias to carry the day.

It's easy to say something negative and let popular opinion wash over you.
It's easy to say, "What about me?" and get grumbles of approval.

I'm sure there is absolutely no downside to give predators -1 to hit. Or maulerfiends run and charge. Or stormravens fallback and shoot.

You people bitch and moan about things like stormraven spam, but given half the chance you'd make rules that brought that back. Fast and durable models don't get CT.

Every single Salamander marine, bike, and dreadnought gets a hit and wound reroll every turn, but give IG a reroll for random shot weapons and the world is on fire.

When have I said anything about the rules for the Stormraven?

All I said was I find 8th to be quite lazy, with Auras'o'Plenty and every man and his squig being able to cause mortal wounds through some rule or stratagem.

The regiment bonuses are pretty large. My #1 hope and prediction is that conscripts remain 3 points, but have no regiment key word. They have not completed any form of military training so no regiment equals no orders and no regiment bonuses. The only buff that will still work on them comes out of a commissar's bolt gun.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The regiment bonuses are pretty large. My #1 hope and prediction is that conscripts remain 3 points, but have no regiment key word. They have not completed any form of military training so no regiment equals no orders and no regiment bonuses. The only buff that will still work on them comes out of a commissar's bolt gun.

Once again, unless there is an extensive fluff overhaul--this is not necessarily true.

"Conscripts" is a catch-all term for anything from the Cadian Whiteshields(extremely young Guardsmen in all but name, many of whom have grown up engaged in wars with live ammunition between themselves and other Whiteshield Regiments) to the Valhallan nonsense of "Derp send in da next waaaaaaaaaaave!" to the Penal Legions to Hive Gangers who are forming ad hoc auxiliary forces, etc.

Out of all the Regiments we know of, only Catachan seems to lack the idea of Conscripts but they go against the grain on a lot of things as their organization seems to be closer to the Tempestus than anything else(multiple squads operating independently).

Additionally, gameplay wise, the things that everyone whine about is their ability to 'tank' incoming damage thanks to the Commissars and a wild misunderstanding of how Orders work such as some people claiming that Conscripts can get Ordered from outside of Order range because of Voxes or how they can fall back and still FRSRF.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
When have I said anything about the rules for the Stormraven?

All I said was I find 8th to be quite lazy, with Auras'o'Plenty and every man and his squig being able to cause mortal wounds through some rule or stratagem.

Yeah it plays like a wired mishmash of AoS and Warmahordes, but less fun.

Your best abilities are tied to buff bubbles that are often slower than the units they support, leading to to the best option being to remain stationary in a game that is supposed to be about taking objectives.

Alternatively you end up with AoS style conga lines of doom, schrodingers Baneblade and all the other good stuff.

Also I am not sure GW have quite got the hang of synergy yet the have Skornegy nailed though. But at least they are trying to bring the designs more in line with modern games they have left the 80's and may have reached the mid 90's but it is a start.