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Considering swapping Noise Marines for larger CSM squads in my list. Am I just crazy or could this actually work?

Currently I run 2x 10 man Noise Marine squads with 8x Sonic Blasters and 2x Blastmasters. I don't have any complaints about them except this feeling I have been lucky up to this point. I know they are going to die in cc someday and opponents are going to figure out how fragile this firebase is.

There seems to be some logic to running 2x 20 man CSM squads with bolters, 2x Lascannons each, MoS and IoE instead. For the record, I play Black Legion, and the legion trait plays into this a tiny bit.

Points wise, each CSM squad is 70 points more expensive. For that, I am getting better heavy weapons and 10 more wounds. This means losing 6 shots per turn + the ignores cover & MotA bonuses, except when I am in Rapid Fire range - at which point they gain 6 more shots.

The thing is, they don't lose 3 shots each time a model dies. I would need to lose 6 CSMs to lose the shooting of 2 Noise Marines. Both have the same saves. So, maybe for a turn or two, the Noise Marines have the advantage, but that changes as soon as models that leaving the table.

Thoughts?

The fact you are not making use of their Legion Trait, if I read that you are playing Black Legion correctly, does tip the favor away from Noise Marines....

why not 4*5? This way you can have 2 more cultist squads and get a bunch of extra CP.

Why are you running 20 man CSM squads or 10 man noise marine squads? I don't understand what you are getting out of it, besides trying to maximize the slaanesh stratagem which is a once a turn thing.

Well, I think CSM do get cheaper if taken at higher power levels in narrative, which may allow you to use the same stratagem multiple times per turn I forget if that's a matched only thing.

SilverAlien wrote:
Why are you running 20 man CSM squads or 10 man noise marine squads? I don't understand what you are getting out of it

Double Blastmaster for Noise Marines.

1 20 man squad is best, why you ask?

2 Stratagems, +1 to wound and shoot again, *BOOM* 120 shots that ignore cover and wound MEQ on 3+ and GEQ on 2+

That's devastating firepower

 Dovis wrote:
1 20 man squad is best, why you ask?

2 Stratagems, +1 to wound and shoot again, *BOOM* 120 shots that ignore cover and wound MEQ on 3+ and GEQ on 2+

That's devastating firepower

If that's your goal, 20 noise marines in an assault claw deepstriking close to the enemy. The assault claw because such a unit will be drowned by enemy fire, noise marines because you will likely lose most of the squad and their special ability at least means you get an extra shot with each, plus the 24 range maximizes initial damage compared to normal bolters that lose a shot outside 12"

SilverAlien wrote:

 Dovis wrote:
1 20 man squad is best, why you ask?

2 Stratagems, +1 to wound and shoot again, *BOOM* 120 shots that ignore cover and wound MEQ on 3+ and GEQ on 2+

That's devastating firepower

If that's your goal, 20 noise marines in an assault claw deepstriking close to the enemy. The assault claw because such a unit will be drowned by enemy fire, noise marines because you will likely lose most of the squad and their special ability at least means you get an extra shot with each, plus the 24 range maximizes initial damage compared to normal bolters that lose a shot outside 12"

Or simply infiltrate them as Alpha Legion and enjoy 180 Shots if you go first.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Or simply infiltrate them as Alpha Legion and enjoy 180 Shots if you go first.

Honestly I'd rather use cultists for this. Get a big group of 40, infiltrate them near the enemy, if you go first great if not you can fall back on tide of traitors to heal the unit unless they wipe them out to a man.

In fairness cultists outdamage both units for their cost using this strategy anyways. Unless VotLW was faq'd to not apply to cultists.

Thank you for the responses.

A few things to point out:

1) No specific reason I have been using 10 man NM squads. Just found they worked well and did not see a reason to change.

2) Endless Cacophony (the Slaanesh stratagem) is a once a turn thing, but it's a very, very good once a turn thing. It benefits larger units more than smaller units.

3) Endless Cacophony can be applied to any Slannesh CSM Infantry. So CSMs would be able to do this too, and moar lascannons is better than moar Blastmasters.

4) Why not a single 20 man Noise Marine squad? Points, that's a quarter of a 2000 point army on a single MEQ unit.

5) The KAC strategy actually works, have tried it in 4 games now. The Noise Marines are a legit threat to remove a single unit a turn each. The big trick is getting the KAC to charge a monster or a vehicle and wreck it with melta cutters, had a game where that did not work out as planned.

 techsoldaten wrote:


3) Endless Cacophony can be applied to any Slannesh CSM Infantry. So CSMs would be able to do this too, and moar lascannons is better than moar Blastmasters.

That'd be if they were Havocs. 2x Blastmaster and 8x Sonic Blaster > 2x Lascannon and 8x Bolters

Point for point, Noise Marines are waaaaaay better than CSMs. Top-tier CSM lists feature Alpha Legion Noise Marines. There's no competitive reason to take CSMs, because Havocs/Noise Marines/Khorne Berzerkers do whatever you want CSMs to do better.

The only reason I would switch was to be fluffier, but a single unit of Noise Marines in the Black Legion is still fluffy.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:


3) Endless Cacophony can be applied to any Slannesh CSM Infantry. So CSMs would be able to do this too, and moar lascannons is better than moar Blastmasters.

That'd be if they were Havocs. 2x Blastmaster and 8x Sonic Blaster > 2x Lascannon and 8x Bolters

Point for point, Noise Marines are waaaaaay better than CSMs. Top-tier CSM lists feature Alpha Legion Noise Marines. There's no competitive reason to take CSMs, because Havocs/Noise Marines/Khorne Berzerkers do whatever you want CSMs to do better.

The only reason I would switch was to be fluffier, but a single unit of Noise Marines in the Black Legion is still fluffy.

This is good, it definitely gets into the point that really has me curious. The math does not seem to agree with the idea Noise Marines do what CSMs do better.

For one thing, yes, CSMs can take Lascannons, this is an option on the heavy weapons list available to CSM squads.

So you meant to say "2x Blastmaster and 8x Sonic Blaster > 2x Lascannon and 18x Bolters." Which works out to 6 bolter shots less for CSMs in favor of 10 additional wounds.

When each of those squads loses 2 models, how does that affect their value? Now they have the same shooting, the NMs advantage is MotA. When they each lose 5 models, CSMs have the shot advantage. If they lose 5 more, the NMs are gone but the CSMs are now at half-strength.

Don't get me wrong, I play lists with 2x and 3x 10 man squads of Noise Marines and really like what they do. BUT it's important to recognize you are making a trade off between extra shots and wounds. If you wanted to forgo heavy weapons, the cost difference between 10x Noise Marines and 20x CSMs goes down to 22 points (assuming you take Sonic Blasters on all NMs). In terms of Power Levels, the points efficiency is even greater, 10 extra CSMs work out to be less expensive than NMs. Also, if the CSMs are shooting at something in Rapid Fire range - that's a BIG advantage to the CSMs.

So the question I am really asking is whether it's worth 22 points for 10 extra wounds at the expense of 12 bolter shots + MotA?

That's what the difference really works out to be for shooty versions of both squads when they hit the table. But after a turn of shooting, the extra wounds seem to give the advantage to the CSMs. Let's remember, same to hit rolls, same to wound rolls, same strength weapons, save AP, same saves.

Ive been doing the multiple 10 man CSM squads with dual Lascannons for a while now, and it's served me well. I'm spending the Slaanesh strategem on Obliterators, which is pretty amazing.

I'm getting that a 10-man Noise Marine squad with 8 sonic blasters and 2 blastmasters is 222 points, while a 20-man CSM squad with 2 lascannons is 310 points. An icon would add 10 to each. So it's pretty unsurprising that the CSMs look better -- they're 40% more expensive. In general it's very important to be looking at percentages rather than absolute differences since otherwise you can miss this kind of thing -- 90 (you said 70 but I'm not sure how you get that) points doesn't sound like that much, in a 2k list, but it's a huge fraction of what these units cost.

We can easily get a more intuitive comparison by topping up the Noise Marine squad until they cost the same. Now we'd be talking about 12-13 sonic blasters and 2 blastmasters. The Noise Marines get ~20 more bolter shots at range, double what the CSMs get, and still have 75% of the wounds. Of course, in practice you'd probably trade some of that for more blastmasters in more squads, or else you'd be taking a 20-man squad and deep-striking it.

I think it's also really important to try to work out how much value you get from MotA. You talk a little about how each unit performs as it takes losses. What MotA does is make it so that, effectively, Noise Marine losses are all delayed by a turn. Its usefulness depends on how fast the squad takes casualties, and so it tends to make up for individual NMs being more expensive -- either they don't get shot and they get to shoot more efficiently than CSMs or they do get shot and MotA makes sure they still shoot more efficiently than CSMs.

So say we take equal points of just bolter CSMs and sonic blaster NMs. That's about 14 NMs vs 20 CSMs (I'm not sure where you're getting that the difference between 10 NMs and 20 CSMs is only 22 points -- each NM is 19 points and each CSM is 13). If the squads can shoot unmolested, the NMs put out 42 (ignores cover) shots to the CSMs' 20. If you go first, and then the squads take 5 casualties in each of your opponent's first two turns, then after three turns of shooting the NMs will have put out 111 shots compared to the CSMs' 45. You were talking as if the CSMs look better as the squads take losses because they'll have a higher fraction of their initial dudes left over, but this is not how it works out in practice. Actually, the faster the squads take losses the better the NMs look. If each squad takes 14 casualties (killing every single NM) in an alpha strike before you get to do anything, and then the surviving CSMs get to stand back and shoot for an entire 6 turns, then the NMs will have put out 42 shots to the CSMs' 36, provided only that they had something worth shooting at when they died.

It's true that CSMs in rapid-fire range do a lot better, but getting them there is tricky. Just because they're individually not that impressive, they're not a great use of a Kharybdis and the Slaanesh stratagem, and walking them around the table outside of cover is asking to get shot.

That the NMs ignore cover has also not come up much. Obviously this doesn't do much for you against Conscripts or Horrors, so it may not be relevant in the most competitive environments, but it's fantastic for hitting MEQs in cover. If nothing else, Noise Marines are much better than CSMs at killing other Noise Marines or CSMs who are trying to take advantage of cover.

@Dinoysodorus - thank you for the comments. Love the name btw.

I am creating a spreadsheet to make comparisons easier. DM me if you want to work on it together. I was getting my numbers out of Battlescribe and realized the costs may erroneously include Icons / Champion upgrades in some cases and not others.

I get your point about increasing the number of NMs to the equivalent points cost. Hoping this did not come across as dishonesty, I was asking the question based on my own army lists.

I want to suggest comparing bolters to sonic weapons might not be that useful. Most of the NM players I know take Blastmasters, and I think of the Lascannon as being superior for 5 points more. Might make more sense to use plasma guns, since many CSM players take those?

But I think, in most cases, there's a number after which CSMs become the more attractive option. Not everyone is going to move either unit up the board, they both have uses when the opponent comes to you.

Right, I think you generally do want to take a blastmaster, but it seems to still make sense to mostly compare sonic blasters to bolters for purposes of working out how the units lose firepower as they take casualties, since those are the ones you're removing first.

I'm not sure that the lascannon is notably better than the blastmaster. The blastmaster is very nearly as good against T7 3+; the lascannon only expects to do about 10% more damage. It suffers against T8 or 2+ saves, but that's about it. And of course it has a secondary fire mode which is comparable to an assault heavy bolter (which still ignores cover). It's certainly far better than a missile launcher, with an anti-infantry option that's very welcome when you don't have a tank worth shooting at. A NM with a blastmaster costs 3 points less than a Marine with a lascannon, and does still benefit from MotA, which is a big deal if you're breaking these up into smaller squads (which I think generally makes sense if you're not counting on a psychic power or stratagem since they better fill detachments and you avoid morale issues).

Also, I'm not sure if you're aware but the FAQ makes clear that, with MotA, NMs can snipe characters. This can actually be a pretty big deal against some lists.

Yes, I am aware of these benefits. Have been working MotA into my calculations as additional "bolter" shots for the purposes of comparison.

So comparative value can't be measured just as a simple linear regression around shots. MotA does mean NMs get a few more shots for having been destroyed, but that's really the extent of it - at least at 24 inches. But CSMs do have more wounds plus they have a higher shot volume at 12 inches - which is also important in objective games.

With the charts I put together (20x CSM v 13x NMs) it becomes clear that the shot advantage switches once each unit takes 8 wounds. It also becomes clear that CSMs have a total firepower advantage at 12 inches regardless of the number of wounds.

So right now - I guess I would say the answer is situational. Yes, you can play around with the heavy weapons, but that's a minor delta compared to the shot volume at different distances. I am not sure it's fair to say one unit is clearly superior because of how it performs at a 12 inch interval on the board, outside of other factors.

I use Noise Marines. In practice, it's important to recognize they operate at a 24 inch range, which puts them in danger of a charge whenever they are ready to start shooting. In most cases, they get one or two good rounds of shooting before taking a charge, which gives a little more weight to the idea that wounds matter.

For them to be the superior unit - absolutely - they would need to get at least two rounds of shooting. This could mean having them stand behind a screening unit, this could mean disembarking at EXACTLY 24 inches from the nearest opponent at all times, this could mean firing from a Chaos Bastion, etc. But CSMs don't really depend on that the same way, they are their own screen in that they have enough wounds to survive a round or two of being in close combat and still be a functional threat on the board.

Totally up for discussions on how to visualize it. Have not reached any conclusions, just putting out thoughts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just to be clear - MotA means nothing outside 24 inches. Getting shot up from across the board is totally possible with a 13 model unit.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yes, I am aware of these benefits. Have been working MotA into my calculations as additional "bolter" shots for the purposes of comparison.

So comparative value can't be measured just as a simple linear regression around shots. MotA does mean NMs get a few more shots for having been destroyed, but that's really the extent of it - at least at 24 inches. But CSMs do have more wounds plus they have a higher shot volume at 12 inches - which is also important in objective games.

With the charts I put together (20x CSM v 13x NMs) it becomes clear that the shot advantage switches once each unit takes 8 wounds. It also becomes clear that CSMs have a total firepower advantage at 12 inches regardless of the number of wounds.

So right now - I guess I would say the answer is situational. Yes, you can play around with the heavy weapons, but that's a minor delta compared to the shot volume at different distances. I am not sure it's fair to say one unit is clearly superior because of how it performs at a 12 inch interval on the board, outside of other factors.

I use Noise Marines. In practice, it's important to recognize they operate at a 24 inch range, which puts them in danger of a charge whenever they are ready to start shooting. In most cases, they get one or two good rounds of shooting before taking a charge, which gives a little more weight to the idea that wounds matter.

For them to be the superior unit - absolutely - they would need to get at least two rounds of shooting. This could mean having them stand behind a screening unit, this could mean disembarking at EXACTLY 24 inches from the nearest opponent at all times, this could mean firing from a Chaos Bastion, etc. But CSMs don't really depend on that the same way, they are their own screen in that they have enough wounds to survive a round or two of being in close combat and still be a functional threat on the board.

Totally up for discussions on how to visualize it. Have not reached any conclusions, just putting out thoughts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just to be clear - MotA means nothing outside 24 inches. Getting shot up from across the board is totally possible with a 13 model unit.

Noise Marines have Assault 3, not Rapid Fire 1. That means outside 12", each Noise Marine has 3x the shots a normal CSM will have. Pointswise, 20 CSMs with 2 lascannons is 50% more expensive than 10 Noise Marines with 8 sonic blasters and 2 blastmasters, which have an arguably better damage output, especially point for point.

Additionally, large units, especially expensive ones with CSMs, are very susceptible to Battleshock. The 5th casualty has a 50% (assuming a statistical roll of 3.5) of causing an extra death, and statistically after 5 casualties, the opponents statistically kills an extra CSM through battleshock for each CSM he kills. Two for the firepower of one, if you will.

They are 2/3rds of the cost, with arguably better firepower (S4 output and flexibility), and your enemy has to risk overkill to a much larger degree. While both can be given MoS and double tap, Noise Marines are better the way I see it, even with the Black Legion's trait.

If you want to run CSMs, do it, but I wouldn't expect them to do as well as Noise Marines.