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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Asmodios wrote:
We actually agree then if you read the incredibly long thread people have been saying that, for example, Cadians painted Cadian colors with Cadian transfers should be played as Cadia. But that was apparently an extreme position and why I now find this thread so funny :p


I am/was under the impression that multiple people were clearly not okay with using cadian models in any capacity in regards to varied doctrinal use based on multiple posts, nor if someone painted them in the style of cadians but wanted to use them as something else. This is personally what I wanted to address. People using transfers would hamper the argument I am making by a significant margin but it can still be explained away if you read my last paragraph in this post- if one is willing to take the time to think of adequate fluff then one can logically explain any number of situations for their own army's history on why they have what they have or do what they do.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
There is a huge difference between saying "These standard Marine models actually have Jump Packs" and "These Imperial Guard Cadian models are all Armageddon Steel Legion." Their game-relevant equipment is identical.


It's exactly the same problem as an army that looks like this:

Saying that it's actually Dark Angels or Ultramarines.

It's obviously not DA or UM, people should get some gak for saying something that ridiculous.



It is not the same issue. How do I put this, one example has a much higher level of linkage than the other, it's not exactly an intrinsic property for a Space Marine but it's similiar in concept. Let me try an example. In the fluff the SM armor is painted specifically for that chapter and given specific modifications over millenia or more of usage and ritually maintained. The colors of the Space Marine is a source of pride and something done really on the artisan level at this point- they have their own serfs for armor so every personal requirement can be met. Even if the marine scavenges from another chapter/location it will quickly be repainted and repaired to that chapter's standard. If there is a shipping error and the Blood Ravens receive armor meant for the Dark Angels, then the BR will obviously repaint that armor because they have that sort of service available and take extreme pride in their colors, it is worth their time for them to modify it. It is not logical/fluffy for a BR force to be accidentally issued DA gear and decide: "what the heck, let's use it as is" (unless you are modelling the most dire of circumstance for the chapter where it faces extinction or something I guess?) because of ingrained psycho-indoctrination to basically be OCD about not wearing their colors. Now I have no problem letting other chapters use different chapter tactics if the person can explain it in the fluff (Perfect example being pre Horus Heresy White Scars using Sons of Horus rules or something along those lines to represent Terran lodge marines who clearly were not like their brothers) or if I am being super casual that day, but generally I agree with you on the subject of SM- they are personalized and have indicators unique to each specific chapter.

The guard? Flak vests, fatigues, and lasguns are issued in the BILLIONS to every man, woman, and sometimes child I am willing to bet. It has nowhere near the same amount of respect power armor has. They are meant to be disposable and everyone knows it, the only maintenance done is to make sure it works and there is no realistic expectation of it lasting past a campaign as an individual item. If it does, sweet! But if not, oh well. Some/many regiments do take pride in their colors (ex being Mordians), but it is no where near the level of the Space Marines. Accidents in logistics happen. Fifteen Hours proves this when a shipment of raw recruits are sent to a death zone by a simple decimal error essentially. Using the same canon based error but changing what is being shipped, what happens if DKOK uniforms and equipment are accidentally sent to a planet of a newly trained regiment? Will they say: "nah, I can't use this, it doesn't fit my aesthetic!"? Of course not, the regiment uses what it is equipped with because waiting for a return and replacement will take years to decades, and by then the tithe is due. So they'll use it, maybe they'll get in trouble later for having the wrong gear or maybe not, but many worlds wouldn't have the capacity nor the inclination to up and alter thousands of uniforms composed of fabric, metal, etc. for a man not expected to live more than 15 hours if they were going to a campaign like in the book I mentioned. In this situation it is clear this hypothetical regiment would in no way operate like the DK, it would operate however it was trained but with DK gear. This is just one example among several I could think up of. Essentially it comes down to there is ONE DA, BA, IF, etc. chapter that has established identities and paint their own armor accordingly. There are hundreds of thousands to milions of IG regiments, probably thousands of which are issued standard Cadian gear if we want to go by how common the gear is in the fluff. Is it really that unreasonable to think one of those regiments would prefer working with armor (Steel Legion), or with bodies (Valhallan) but doesn't bother to repaint armor and find new fabric for each shipment they receive?

Let me be clear, I don't like people switching regiments/chapters all the time unless they are getting a feel for what army to build next, but if someone had Cadian models painted exactly as Cadians in terms of the armor color, fatigues, etc. but said fluff wise they were a just formed regiment quickly called into action and given the closest set of armor (Cadian regiment surplus since it is everywhere- at that point it would be accurate to add cadian regimental marks) on hand and thrown into the fray? Then it literally does not break any fluff metric like having Blood Angels wearing Ultimas nor does it break any form of WYSIWYG.

*edited a few immediate grammar problems

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 07:22:43


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




The difference between "marine in blue vs marine in red" and "guardsman in blue vs guardsman in red" is that for 95% of marines the color IS the distinguishing feature of the chapter. When you ask "what do ultramarines look like?" anyone will say "blue power armored marines." As unfortunate as it is, the uniform is the distinguishing feature of a guard regiment. Color largely doesn't matter. It's the gas mask, the long coats, the fur hats,etc. This unfortunately makes it very difficult to convert regiments. Especially because GW makes it almost impossible to field anything but cadian (and maybe catachan).

It's unfair, and personally I'll be extra lenient on guard players. Collecting wise they do not have it easy.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







This thread is an amazing eye opener.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






So when the nid dex shows up are nids painted in the behemoth scheme going to HAVE to play them as Hive fleet behemoth? Leviathan must be played as leviathan? Custom schemes able to pick and choose which ever they want?

Nids change their coloring planet to planet if the adaptation is worth while. In the same way that IG wear different armor in different environments. If you are going to be this picky on the guard are you going to extend this to everyone?

All Admech better have the correct colors to use the correct forge world Red mofos better all be from Mars. Insanity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 07:40:14



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Lance845 wrote:
So when the nid dex shows up are nids painted in the behemoth scheme going to HAVE to play them as Hive fleet behemoth? Leviathan must be played as leviathan? Custom schemes able to pick and choose which ever they want?

Nids change their coloring planet to planet if the adaptation is worth while. In the same way that IG wear different armor in different environments. If you are going to be this picky on the guard are you going to extend this to everyone?

All Admech better have the correct colors to use the correct forge world Red mofos better all be from Mars. Insanity.


I am actually surprised that they do not describe nids as having some form of cells that give them natural camouflage, It seems like such a natural fit for them, and you do not even need rules for it.

On the wider note, i think this also goes against creativity. Players cannot create a regiment outside of the standard as its an absolute, cannot have a commander that is adaptable.
cannot have a regiment that has fight for time on another planet or against foes that force a change.
It also seems to point that players thinking about there army and units is somehow against what this game is about, and that makes me very sad :(

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 07:51:42


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Personally I do not even see the need to justify regiment or chapter tactic proxies with lore. Its purely a gameplay thing to do and whats the problem with that? If someone has painted their marines as being ultramarines do you want them to go out and buy a whole new marine army to play white scars chapter tactics? You are playing a game and I do not see anything wrong with people wanting to have variety and try new things. Why punish people who put the effort into painting their models by forcing them down a certain way of playing?


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Marines are easy to strip and repaint. Not saying I expect marine players to do that, just playing devil's advocate.

On a related note, if I played marines and i was serious about switching chapters for the long haul, I WOULD repaint.
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 AaronWilson wrote:
This is madness. I can't believe people get so riled up over toy soldiers.


You're new here.

THIS IS DAKKA!




This gave me a giggle.

A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

 Corrode wrote:
Personally I'm just glad that when I started my Guard in 2011 I had the foresight to give them slightly different heads, thus shattering the Cadian look so completely that they can pass for anything they like without being confusing.


And I'm glad that Metalica was too hard to paint, so I went with a blue and orange pattern of my own for my Skitarii, so now I'm not getting shoehorned into certain rules by fluff-fascists that want to dictate how I get to play the game based on an aesthetic choice I made years ago.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Scott-S6 wrote:
Asmodios wrote:

We actually agree then if you read the incredibly long thread people have been saying that, for example, Cadians painted Cadian colors with Cadian transfers should be played as Cadia. But that was apparently an extreme position and why I now find this thread so funny :p

You keep saying "Cadian colors" but the fluff is very clear that guard are whatever colour is appropriate to the environment. Cadians might be all kinds of other colours and non-Cadians can be green/tan. If you want to get fussy over the fluff and "immersion" then the colour is irrelevant.

No im not just saying "Cadia Colors" I'm saying colors and markings. Once again let's take a super simple example let's say you have a basic SM, it's simply grey plastic it has no chapter/ rules tied to it. Now you take the SM and paint it bright green and it just so happens to be the Salamanders colors....it's still just a green SM and could play as anything as I don't know of any SM chapter that just rocks green. Then let's say you now take the time to add all the Salamders transfers/ additional bits to make it a Salamander, at this point in my mind you have chosen the Salamanders for better or worse. This is no longer a generic SM that could be anything it is a specific chapter with specific rules and should be played as such. Same with IG so you buy some guardsman and paint them green and tan..... ok common colors most likely used on thousands of worlds. Now you go and put Cadia transfers on your tanks/ army wide transfers/ Cadia regimental banners etc. this army is now a Cadian army.

Reguardless ive said all along that its those people's models and nothing's stopping them from using Salamanders as blood angels. I even said earlier that if a nice guy said "hey I'd like to try out blood angels I'm thinking of getting some" no preoblem. But I personally wouldn't want to play against someone who all of a sudden runs a full Salamanders army as Blood angels especially a week after a new codex drop where BA just got an update and this player that has been running Salamanders for years just now tells everyone they are secretly BA in disguise

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 13:17:41


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Asmodios wrote:
Now you go and put Cadia transfers on your tanks/ army wide transfers/ Cadia regimental banners etc. this army is now a Cadian army.


And that's completely absurd. You don't even have the excuse of WYSIWYG confusion anymore, as the tiny "Cadia" on the side of a tank is barely visible at normal tabletop distances. Your entire objection is based on your ignorance of the IG fluff.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

 Peregrine wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
Now you go and put Cadia transfers on your tanks/ army wide transfers/ Cadia regimental banners etc. this army is now a Cadian army.


And that's completely absurd.


The fact that this thread didn't just end on page 1 with "nah, no one is gonna try to dictate how you play your plastic men" is absurd.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





On a related note, anyone know any good way to convert a lot of longcoat guardsmen with night vision goggles or rebreathers that doesn't involve a ton of forge world purchasing?
I always wanted to complete a guard army from a nocturnal world and I love the greatcoat look and tactics for getting close and being stealthy.
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

Check out Victoria Miniatures for greatcoats. Pretty sure there's also rebreather heads.

Mad Robot Miniatures has some good selection of bits too.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






My take on this?

Doctrines, Chapter bonuses etc are a reward for Hobby - as in painting your models.

They're not there for you to get clever with your list to squeeze the best bonuses for the various units. To do so, I see as an abuse of the spirit of the game.

Now, if someone has Cadian infantry, and an actual Catachan tank detachment? Well, fair enough. At least you've gone to the effort.

But if it's all the one uniform scheme? Oh just sod off with your power gaming nonsense. Doubly so if the regiments you field change from game to game to garner you the best perceived benefit.

YMMV, and this is merely my opinion. I do not hold myself as some paragon of gaming virtue.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Hey look! It’s my 2025 Hobby Log/Blog/Project/Whatevs 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
Now you go and put Cadia transfers on your tanks/ army wide transfers/ Cadia regimental banners etc. this army is now a Cadian army.


And that's completely absurd. You don't even have the excuse of WYSIWYG confusion anymore, as the tiny "Cadia" on the side of a tank is barely visible at normal tabletop distances. Your entire objection is based on your ignorance of the IG fluff.

You might find it obsured but clearly a lot of people don't. Also don't see how it's not technically WYSIWYG you see black templars painted as black templars with black templar markings you have black templars. You have Cadians painted as Cadians will Ciadian transfers then you are playing Cadia. What I find absurd is how upset people get when you say "I'm choosing not to play this way you can still play however you want". The fact that the way i choose to act in a hypothetical situation is so offensive to people on Dakka is absolutely absurd to me haha.
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

 SideshowLucifer wrote:
On a related note, anyone know any good way to convert a lot of longcoat guardsmen with night vision goggles or rebreathers that doesn't involve a ton of forge world purchasing?
I always wanted to complete a guard army from a nocturnal world and I love the greatcoat look and tactics for getting close and being stealthy.


I mean that kind of conversion work is never gonna be cheap, but you might want to look at sites like puppetswar.eu to see if there is anything that catches your fancy



or ninjas?

 
   
Made in no
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge




Asmodios wrote:
Now you go and put Cadia transfers on your tanks/ army wide transfers/ Cadia regimental banners etc. this army is now a Cadian army.


But a Cadian army =/= a Cadian army. Even if the Cadian models are representing Cadians, with banners and icons and all that, the Cadian doctrine might not be the best representation of how they fight. There are mechanized Cadians (Armageddon doctrine), White Shields (Valhallan), and Kasrkin (Tempestus, maybe?)


I wish GW had just named the doctrines something more generic, like Mechanized, Human Wave, Close Order Drill and so on, so we could just get on with playing our armies the way they make sense to us rather than fighting it out in this abomination of a forum thread.

On a holy crusade to save the Leman Russ Vanquisher 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






Asmodios wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
Now you go and put Cadia transfers on your tanks/ army wide transfers/ Cadia regimental banners etc. this army is now a Cadian army.


And that's completely absurd. You don't even have the excuse of WYSIWYG confusion anymore, as the tiny "Cadia" on the side of a tank is barely visible at normal tabletop distances. Your entire objection is based on your ignorance of the IG fluff.

You might find it obsured but clearly a lot of people don't. Also don't see how it's not technically WYSIWYG you see black templars painted as black templars with black templar markings you have black templars. You have Cadians painted as Cadians will Ciadian transfers then you are playing Cadia. What I find absurd is how upset people get when you say "I'm choosing not to play this way you can still play however you want". The fact that the way i choose to act in a hypothetical situation is so offensive to people on Dakka is absolutely absurd to me haha.

I tihnk his point is that WYSIWYG no longer exists in the rules.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Thanks guys. I appreciate the suggestions. I'll check them out.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Asmodios wrote:
Also don't see how it's not technically WYSIWYG you see black templars painted as black templars with black templar markings you have black templars.


WYSIWYG is not some absolute rule to be prioritized above all else, it's a means to an end: ensuring that there's no ambiguity about which models on the table have which rules. If you have a 10-man squad with one melta gun and one missile launcher you need to be able to identify which model has which weapon and where you need to measure range from, without any debate over it or room to cheat by picking whichever model is most convenient every time you shoot. But something like a tiny symbol on a shoulder pad? That has no practical value. It isn't helping you identify which model is which, because it's invisibly tiny at normal tabletop distances and to all but the most careful of observers looks no different from a non-Cadian model with a similar paint scheme. The only reason to enforce WYSIWYG that strictly is as a weapon for bludgeoning your opponent into complying with your paranoia about "powergamers".

You have Cadians painted as Cadians will Ciadian transfers then you are playing Cadia.


You keep ignoring the fact that there are many Cadian regiments which are best represented with other rules. If you're going to count rivets at least get it right.

What I find absurd is how upset people get when you say "I'm choosing not to play this way you can still play however you want". The fact that the way i choose to act in a hypothetical situation is so offensive to people on Dakka is absolutely absurd to me haha.


Again, "it's just my preference" is not an excuse for bad behavior. Nor does it mean that your preference deserves any respect, or is based on anything but ignorance about the fluff and paranoia about "powergamers".

(And really, it's pretty amusing how you talk so much about how you hate "powergamers" but spend all this time obsessing over small variations in army power level. If winning doesn't really matter then why is it so important to force your opponent to use a weaker set of rules? Just accept that they're using whatever rules they tell you they're using and play the game. But I suspect that, like most of the "casual at all costs" crowd, you really do care about winning, you just don't want to have to get better at the game to be able to win.)

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My take on this?

Doctrines, Chapter bonuses etc are a reward for Hobby - as in painting your models.

They're not there for you to get clever with your list to squeeze the best bonuses for the various units. To do so, I see as an abuse of the spirit of the game.

Now, if someone has Cadian infantry, and an actual Catachan tank detachment? Well, fair enough. At least you've gone to the effort.

But if it's all the one uniform scheme? Oh just sod off with your power gaming nonsense. Doubly so if the regiments you field change from game to game to garner you the best perceived benefit.

YMMV, and this is merely my opinion. I do not hold myself as some paragon of gaming virtue.


In your case, would I have to own the official Valhallan models to use the Valhallan doctrine?

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Scott-S6 wrote:
I tihnk his point is that WYSIWYG no longer exists in the rules.


Nah, even when it did exist in the rules community consensus was more important than strict RAW. My point is that several people on the "if your models look like Cadians they must use the Cadian rules" side have raised the point of WYSIWYG and ambiguous models. IOW, that if a model looks like a Cadian unit it's confusing to have it using the Catachan rules. But Asmodios makes it perfectly clear that this is not a valid argument for them to make. They're willing to accept a model from the Cadian kit painted with the Cadian colors using the Catachan rules, as long as it doesn't have a tiny Cadian symbol on its shoulder pad. But if you add that tiny symbol to the model then suddenly you're expected to use the Cadian rules. A tiny symbol that is barely visible at normal tabletop distances has no effect on WYSIWYG, so their motives for enforcing the rule can not possibly be related to WYSIWYG.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






 Peregrine wrote:
ust my preference" is not an excuse for bad behavior. Nor does it mean that your preference deserves any respect, or is based on anything but ignorance about the fluff and paranoia about "powergamers".

(And really, it's pretty amusing how you talk so much about how you hate "powergamers" but spend all this time obsessing over small variations in army power level. If winning doesn't really matter then why is it so important to force your opponent to use a weaker set of rules? Just accept that they're using whatever rules they tell you they're using and play the game. But I suspect that, like most of the "casual at all costs" crowd, you really do care about winning, you just don't want to have to get better at the game to be able to win.)

Yes, the CAAC mafia have been out in force on this one. I guess the new codex has them worried that list tailoring and cheese-shaming won't be enough to keep them with a chance of winning.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





People won't mix and match any worse with this codex than the others. You will see people bring a regiment for a purpose, and then ally in another regiment to serve another. So what? It's what has been happening this edition the whole time.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






The whole "you're just trying to enforce weaker rules to have a chance to win!" narrative is incredibly asinine.

If someone wants to use two or more different regiment rulesets, I'm going to want SOME KIND of clear distinction between regiment A and regiment B and I feel that there's absolutely no difference between that and wanting some kind of clear distinction between a model with weapon A and weapon B.

It's no different from the 7th ed situation of having a list with the same units running different formations. Benefiting from your opponent being confused about what's what is, and has always been, a jerk move, I'm sorry.

No, it's not perfectly clear that "everything I took with a blast weapon I took in a catachan detachment because they get better blasts, and all the stationary tanks I took in a cadian detachment because they get rerolls, and all the conscripts and infantry I took in a valhallan detachment to get the respawn stratagem, and they're all painted the same colors." That's exactly the same as "this unit with melta guns is actually flamers, this unit with melta guns is melta guns, these heavy bolters are grav cannons (because who uses heavy bolters pff they suck) and this coke bottle is a drop pod"

If people want to run Valhallan rules with their cadians, I don't care. If people want to run MULTIPLE DIFFERENT regiments with their cadians with some kind of color differentiator to make it's clear what's what, that's also fine. But saying that having any kind of standard of clarity is "rivet counting" is ridiculous, and also saying that people have no right to choose who they play based on the kind of game they want to play that day because then they're engaging in some kind of "competitiveness shaming" is also ridiculous. I play in tournaments when I choose to. When I'd rather get my cool old Vostroyan models off the shelf and play them in the game without having a giant handicap, I'm going to not play against someone with an obviously tournament quality list. That's called "personal discretion" and it's part of accepting that not everyone is going to play the game for exactly the same reason that you want to play the game.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






If it's entirely about clarity would you consider some kind of marker, that has no meaning fluff-wise, to be acceptable? Different colors for the base edges, etc? The models still look the same, they just have an unambiguous note about which rules they have.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/04 14:44:49


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Blacksails wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My take on this?

Doctrines, Chapter bonuses etc are a reward for Hobby - as in painting your models.

They're not there for you to get clever with your list to squeeze the best bonuses for the various units. To do so, I see as an abuse of the spirit of the game.

Now, if someone has Cadian infantry, and an actual Catachan tank detachment? Well, fair enough. At least you've gone to the effort.

But if it's all the one uniform scheme? Oh just sod off with your power gaming nonsense. Doubly so if the regiments you field change from game to game to garner you the best perceived benefit.

YMMV, and this is merely my opinion. I do not hold myself as some paragon of gaming virtue.


In your case, would I have to own the official Valhallan models to use the Valhallan doctrine?


Not necessarily, no. If you relied on the standard Cadian models because that's what's readily available and suits better than Catachans, I'd just consider if it's a particularly Valhallan colour scheme. Probably could've been clearer about that originally. IT's about the paintjob, not so much the models.

If it was Valhallans one week, Cadians the next, then Tallarns because of some perceived advantage to you, then no.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Hey look! It’s my 2025 Hobby Log/Blog/Project/Whatevs 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Peregrine wrote:
If it's entirely about clarity would you consider some kind of marker, that has no meaning fluff-wise, to be acceptable? Different colors for the base edges, etc? The models still look the same, they just have an unambiguous note about which rules they have.


Sure - that's exactly what there was in the competitive game I played the other day. Each unit of conscripts had a separate base color and we referred to them as "blue squad" and "green squad"

My vostroyans were designed around being a combined blob of infantry squads, but when I would run them as vets, I had roman numerals on their shoulders to denote which squad they were - I through V.

but, again, if I or anyone else is not interested in playing an optimized game and I'd rather get to use my Vostroyan flamer infantry and heavy bolter team models, my Powerfist and Powersword/Plasma Pistol sarges, my Sniper Vets, I'm probably going to refuse a game against someone who wants to use multiple regiments and has a list built with a competitive mindset. 40k is not just a competitive wargame, it's a social activity, and an aesthetic hobby. Not everyone's going to have the time, money, or inclination to build their armies into the latest competitive hotness and you seem dedicated to vehemently attacking anyone who refuses a game on grounds of an optimization mismatch or an attitude mismatch, because playing out foregone conclusions aren't (or at least, shouldn't be) fun for either party most of the time.

It is a fact of life that the farther from the middle of the road for the meta you play in your normal list gets, the fewer enjoyable games you're going to have. If that's on the low end, you're going to have a lot more defeats. if that's on the high side, you're going to have a lot more players refusing games. At this point, because I've got a big, established collection and a variety of tastes, I just adjust my level of competitiveness to the opponent I'm going to play against, and the easiest way to do that is adjusting my lists to use models that I had from older editions that are no longer terribly good, or that I just bought for aesthetic reasons.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If your regiment is painstakingly modeled and painted to look like a particular, well-known regiment, then I would expect it to be played as such.

If I'm the one playing it, then yeah, I would hold myself to that standard. But personally I find it exhausting to be so persnickety about what other people do with their toy soldiers.

   
 
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