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2017/10/01 15:38:00
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Now you'll believe me when I say that Spanish Police are basically thugs with the right to shoot people with rubber-balls and are drawn from the low end of the society!
I'm from Galicia, and personally I believe in a Federal state for Spain, because the Constitution we have now is a travesty. The goverment uses it as a thrown weapon. They ignore it all the time, and use only the parts they want to use when it works in their benefit. The Catalonian oligarqui isn't better.
What foreigners need to undersand, is that this is not a cry for independence for a group of people. This is a fight of the catalonian political oligarchi vs the Spanish political oligarchi.
The strong Feudal Lord agains't the weak King.
In the meantime, Rajoy has assure another year as a president because as I said, all of this "Independence" movement is just a faux, a smoke wall to cover the interest of the Catalonian and Spanish oligarchies, that have always been partners in crime about all of this. They have broke Spanish Society in two fronts to their economical and political interest, and thats repugnant in so many levels...
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/01 15:59:08
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
It's also starkly evident how disconnected the sociopaths in power are from humanity if they don't understand that this repression will only fuel the Catalonian cause.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2017/10/01 16:02:36
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
They totally understand it, but they don't care, because when people is thinking about the catalonian cause, they aren't thinking about the corruption of the goverment, and how they are effectively doing nothing. They have been in this legislature for a full year now, and they haven't even approved the budgefs of the state. At this point, I laugh, because the reality of my country is enough to cry.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/01 16:05:58
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
djones520 wrote: I've read nearly 400 Catalonians injured so far in this affair.
Yeah... this is going to help bring the people back into the state, for sure.
Thats gonna help relations alot,.
even moderates are going to more likely to side with secessionists,
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/01 17:54:01
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: While I agree that the central government is going eerily fascist, you can't just declare referenda because you want to. It's not like the Catalan independence side is respecting democratic principles either. They didn't get a 2/3rd majority in the Catalan parliament that the referendum requires according to the Catalan (note Catalan, not Spanish) constitution. You don't get to ignore your own constitution just because it's inconvenient.
You can argue about what is legal until the cows come home, but the bottom line is this:
A peaceful, democratic demonstration was met with a hail of plastic bullets and police batons.
And this occured not in a banana republic, but a first world democracy in Western Europe.
djones520 wrote: I've read nearly 400 Catalonians injured so far in this affair.
Yeah... this is going to help bring the people back into the state, for sure.
Thats gonna help relations alot,.
even moderates are going to more likely to side with secessionists,
Yeah, the Spanish government has doubled down on stupidity. If they had let the vote go ahead, and did nothing to stop it, they could have ignored the result on the basis it was unconstitutional. And the international community, knowing full well that there was a proper democratic system in place for this sort of thing (2/3rds vote in parliament or something) probably would have backed Spain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/01 17:59:29
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2017/10/01 18:08:12
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: While I agree that the central government is going eerily fascist, you can't just declare referenda because you want to. It's not like the Catalan independence side is respecting democratic principles either. They didn't get a 2/3rd majority in the Catalan parliament that the referendum requires according to the Catalan (note Catalan, not Spanish) constitution. You don't get to ignore your own constitution just because it's inconvenient.
You can argue about what is legal until the cows come home, but the bottom line is this:
A peaceful, democratic demonstration was met with a hail of plastic bullets and police batons.
And this occured not in a banana republic, but a first world democracy in Western Europe.
djones520 wrote: I've read nearly 400 Catalonians injured so far in this affair.
Yeah... this is going to help bring the people back into the state, for sure.
Thats gonna help relations alot,.
even moderates are going to more likely to side with secessionists,
Yeah, the Spanish government has doubled down on stupidity. If they had let the vote go ahead, and did nothing to stop it, they could have ignored the result on the basis it was unconstitutional. And the international community, knowing full well that there was a proper democratic system in place for this sort of thing (2/3rds vote in parliament or something) probably would have backed Spain.
Yeah. Spain if it played the cards right could of dealt with it and fobbed it, fudged it. And got off away with it. No one would of noticed or care.
As of now there heavy handed sledge hammer approach now means however illegal the ballot. There coming out bad guys on a big scale.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/01 18:30:41
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/01 18:36:16
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
The key problem with your post is that none of them were 'fighting'. They were standing there with their arms raised in positions of peace. I've seen multiple bits of footage with people literally standing there peacefully and getting their heads cracked in.
When you're getting beaten and wounded for standing there? That makes you 'right'. By sheer virtue of the fact that the other guy is very much indisputably 'wrong'.
2017/10/01 18:44:59
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
"Fighting" and being in the vicinity of guys beating on civilians are different things. This is some serious victim blaming stuff dude, its like you're ignoring the situation and going straight to "oh if the police are attacking them then they must have done something".
Christ.
2017/10/01 18:47:23
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
lord_blackfang wrote: It's also starkly evident how disconnected the sociopaths in power are from humanity if they don't understand that this repression will only fuel the Catalonian cause.
Maybe thats what the Catalan leaders intended? Call an illegal referendum to freak out the National government and provoke them into a disproportionate reaction?
2017/10/01 18:58:30
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
Even fascism has its defenders and apologists.
But you're correct about one thing, the protesters aren't automatically right just because they are being beaten. They would have been right regardless.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2017/10/01 18:58:52
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
lord_blackfang wrote: It's also starkly evident how disconnected the sociopaths in power are from humanity if they don't understand that this repression will only fuel the Catalonian cause.
Maybe thats what the Catalan leaders intended? Call an illegal referendum to freak out the National government and provoke them into a disproportionate reaction?
"She were asking for it yer honour, else she wouldn't have been wearin' that skimpy dress."
Even if we accept that the referendum was illegal(and that's a big big if given the actual wording of the Spanish constitution and the "leanings" of the judges involved in the rulings on the matter), there is no amount of "provocation" that justifies the behaviour of the Guarda Civil today. None. Holding a vote without legal sanction isn't even a partial excuse for mauling peaceful citizens with bats, MACEing them, stamping on them, throwing them down stairs, intentionally breaking their fingers, or shooting them with rubber bullets, and those are just the things I've personally seen evidence of them doing today, the scale and ferocity of the violence went far beyond that.
If this were happening in Russia, or China, or an African nation, people wouldn't even be trying to think of excuses or justifications nevermind actually posting them in public.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2017/10/01 19:05:56
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Hey I didn't say (nor think) it was justified, I was simply suggesting that the Catalan Government knew this was the reaction they'd get. Provocation as in you know that a disproportionate reaction is likely to follow. Not provocation in the legal sense.
So don't go jumping down my throat please. I agree with you 100%, and am in no way defending the actions of the Guarda Civil. See my post on page 1 where I called their actions "despicable".
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
Do you want fascism? Because that is how you get fascism.
In all seriousness, whilst I understand the Spanish governments want to stop a referendum, this kind of over the top reaction is the mark of a dangerous government, and agreeing with their actions justifies it and leads them toward fascism. It should be challenged at all terns.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2017/10/01 19:19:12
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
godardc wrote: When you break the law, come the law enforcers.
What a surprise...
When you fight against heavily armoured guys, you get beaten.
What a surprise...
It is not because they are the ones getting beaten and wounded that they are right.
Eveyone everytime make the same mistake: just because someone bleeds does not make him right.
Even fascism has its defenders and apologists.
But you're correct about one thing, the protesters aren't automatically right just because they are being beaten. They would have been right regardless.
«fascim»
So what, let's disband every Police in the world, after all, they are just violent pigs !
Let disband our armies, too ! We will defend ourselves by the power of the flowers and love !
...
I can't believe there are people currently disagreeing with policemen for enforcing law and the Spanish state for fighting secessionism.
The secessionists are fighting the State and the Law, and as the State serve the people, those secessionists are fighting against the people
Automatically Appended Next Post: You have to understand: they don't attack voters, they are not stopping a referendum.
No.
They are fighting against criminals. When you see a policeman beating a dealer, a raper or something else, do you disagree with the policeman ? Do you think he is wrong because he used violence to enforce the law ?
I don't think so.
Here, it is the same issue. People against peole, against law and order, and policemen, at their own risks, restoring order.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/01 19:24:57
They are fighting against criminals. When you see a policeman beating a dealer, a raper or something else, do you disagree with the policeman ? Do you think he is wrong because he used violence to enforce the law ?
Standing near a polling booth is not a crime. Raising your hands in the air is not a crime. Gathering with groups of other likeminded people is not a crime. Even by
your own twisted justification, they do not deserve to have their heads kicked in. They are not criminals by any law. Even if we say that holding the referendum is illegal, being positioned nearby does not make you an accessory anymore than it does if someone gets mugged across the road from you.
Furthermore, under EU law, they actually do very explicitly have human rights. It is the police who are technically the criminals, as they are illegally assaulting bystanders. Unjustified battery is very much illegal in Spain, whether you're a police officer or not. So I assume you'll be pressing in your next post for these officers who are very directly breaking the law to have the crap kicked out of them?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/01 19:42:25
2017/10/01 19:39:17
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yeah the police were seizing the ballots for safe keeping so the referendum can run smoothly.
Proud to say that many of my local politicians have been calling for a recognition of this referendum and have written to the Spanish government calling for an end to these brutalities. Was also pretty cool to se my cites walls lit up red and yellow in support of Catalan!
You have to understand: they don't attack voters, they are not stopping a referendum.
YOU have to understand that this statement is a LIE. There is video footage of Riot Cops dragging voters out of a polling station including women and elderly people and literally throwing them down a crowded flight of stairs on top of other voters and even other Cops further down the stairs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/01 19:44:31
2017/10/01 19:45:41
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Perfect example here if you click through. Protestors with raised hands. No violence being offered towards police. The protestors are just standing there. Police then start laying into them with weapons. That's a very clear case of assault by a police officer. Officers even, as there's a line of policeman literally beating the crap out of people who have done nothing illegal.
Which is, of course, illegal. Article 5 of European Law provides for liberty and security of person. Freedom in other words, to not have your head bludgeoned to a red paste because you happen to be located within a hundred square metres of a box that the Spanish Prime Minister dislikes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/01 19:46:45
2017/10/01 19:45:51
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The entire country of France called. They said GTFU. The entire reason your worthless ass is able to post your idiotic opinions on the Internet is due to people revolting against this kind of thing.
"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
That kick at the start is brutal, if you do that to someone in the street you get arrested for assault or attempted murder. Being a police officer doesn't give you the righto do whatever the hell you want. The government have sown the seeds of independence with these actions, these peoples children and grand children will grow up hearing stories of these actions.
I haven't particularly read into the ins and outs of why this referendum is 'illegal', but I get the impression the Spanish government was prepared to let it go ahead knowing public support would back a unified Spain and therefore would be over before it got started. When they realised a lot more Catalonians would vote for independence they panicked badly. What a fudge up, dashing the hopes of the people, putting the government to shame and destroying confidence in Spanish police. If anything this will strengthen an independence movement and will certainly weaken if not break Spain's government. Heads will roll no doubt.
