Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.

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**Pseudomonas**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

We ARE still in the EU.

Not for long though as you well know.

Orlanth wrote:
The UK has to have the balls to do this also,

Well if they want to guarantee that Scotland will be independent by the middle of the century that's a good way to go about it

**Orlanth**

Galas wrote:

And after saying that, I'll repeat my contempt from how the central goverment and the police has act in Catalonia, and even if I'm anti independentist I believe that the referendum should have been made.

I feel your pain. Someone in Madrid panicked and as a result Spain itself is in danger. If the referendum vote tally is pro independence it will not be almost impossible to stop. A savvy campaign can make independence all but inevitable. Ghandi tactics are the key. No violence or threats of violence, but block the roads in and out and rally the people. Massive civic disobedience.

This will resonate globally. That is perhaps Spain's saving grace. Spain was anti-scottish independence to the point of warning the SNP government that they would veto scottish entry into the EU because of how Catalonia would react. There will be a lot of interest to stop a domino effect, in Europe and abroad. Many major global governments including most the EU and the US won't want this. Italy and Belgium wont for certain as both have successionist regions, and the UK will worry about the Welsh or Scottish kicking off, though Welsh indyref will flat fail and Scotland can be headed off due to the 2014 ballot. Of the big players Russia will like it, and that has already been recognised. Russia might recognise Catalonia if it secedes, but even that is unlikely as it will have knock on effects on Russia's relationships with the Baltic states.

Then there is the EU doing what Spain wanted to do to Scotland, denying membership so the fledgeling state is doomed to fail and needs to make arrangements. The trouble here is that Germany and Benelux want to downsize the EU anyway and rid themselves of club med countries, not that they admit that too openly. This could be the opening of the door for this to happen.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Pseudomonas wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

We ARE still in the EU.

Not for long though as you well know.

Well no gak. But the point is, we haven't left YET. You said that we had already left.

**Pseudomonas**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Well no gak. But the point is, we haven't left YET. You said that we had already left.

Is there a meaningful distinction in this context? No.

**Orlanth**

Pseudomonas wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
The UK has to have the balls to do this also,

Well if they want to guarantee that Scotland will be independent by the middle of the century that's a good way to go about it

Referendums need to be one-offs or some movements will just repeat them until successful. This is understood pretty much as a global truth. The SNP are trying find excuses to do exactly that and have been doing so since before Brexit.
Also repeated attempts at a referendum actually dont enthuse the populace beyond the hardline. In this instance most Scots don't want repeat referenda either as it's a permanent distraction, it's undemocratic and takes focus away from getting other things done.
Even in spite of Brexit support just isn't there. Sturgeon knows this and hasn't tried to pull this one as a result (she is no fool).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?

Yes that's not going to happen.

You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.

Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.

That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.

Times have changed. What was normal policy then is not so now.

(Thinks of list of civil wars in the last decade)...ok sure...

Spain isn't in South America or Africa.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Today's shameful assault on democracy goes beyond Spain. Everytime something like this happens, we, and by we I mean Europe and the USA, lose another piece of the moral high ground.

How can we lecture Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or China, or Venezuela on what's right and what's not?

We can't. They will point to Spain and tells us to stop with the double standards.

With each passing year, it dawns on me that Western politicians are not up to the job anymore.

Anybody with half a brain cell would have let this referendum run its course, and then strung it out for months or years with a compromise or a court room battle.

The Spanish PM panics, and this happens. David Cameron panics, calls an ill-timed referendum, and Britain leaves the UK.

Holding your nerve used to be a political art form. JFK and Cuba being a prime example, but like I say, Western politicians just aren't up to it any more.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?

Yes that's not going to happen.

The sad thing is that there was a textbook example for Madrid to follow: the Scotland example.

I'm no expert on this Frazz, but from what I've read, the Spanish government, had they granted a proper referendum to the Catalans, probably would have won it, and the issue would be buried for at least 50 years.

Instead, they created martyrs and boosted the opposition

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollow wrote:
Those wanting independence for Catalonia could not be happier right now. The Spanish state have fallen right into their trap by over-reacting.

I doubt if it was intentional, but it certainly worked out well for them.

**Frazzled**

Orlanth wrote:
Pseudomonas wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
The UK has to have the balls to do this also,

Well if they want to guarantee that Scotland will be independent by the middle of the century that's a good way to go about it

Referendums need to be one-offs or some movements will just repeat them until successful. This is understood pretty much as a global truth. The SNP are trying find excuses to do exactly that and have been doing so since before Brexit.
Also repeated attempts at a referendum actually dont enthuse the populace beyond the hardline. In this instance most Scots don't want repeat referenda either as it's a permanent distraction, it's undemocratic and takes focus away from getting other things done.
Even in spite of Brexit support just isn't there. Sturgeon knows this and hasn't tried to pull this one as a result (she is no fool).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
I am confused. Did you really think Spain would allow the wealthiest portion of it's nation to just secede?

Yes that's not going to happen.

You can send armies in, or heavy handed police, but that doesn't stop a popular uprising, it guarantees it.
You allow one referendum, and one only, with no mandate of themselves to call a second and make sure they pro independence faction loses it by whatever method is best.

Spain could have won the vote outright. Catalonia would be straight out the EU with no parachute. Many people decided to vote out because of the threats. Also note that the referendum is also a built in dissolution of the monarchy, an all or nothing option. That higher bar and higher risk.

That's not what your own history shows, nor the history of Spain, of Europe, or anywhere.

Times have changed. What was normal policy then is not so now.

(Thinks of list of civil wars in the last decade)...ok sure...

Spain isn't in South America or Africa.

One word: Franco.

**Wyrmalla**

Galas wrote:

The goal of Catalan independence has no merit, because is something built in the 2007 to push agains't the central Goverment to gain more benefits. The other Catalanonian independence movement was in the Second Republic and his had 0 to do with this independece movement of now.

**Galas**

Wyrmalla wrote:
Galas wrote:

The goal of Catalan independence has no merit, because is something built in the 2007 to push agains't the central Goverment to gain more benefits. The other Catalanonian independence movement was in the Second Republic and his had 0 to do with this independece movement of now.

That's sounding like the argument "there was no Scottish independence movement till Braveheart came out". It may not be a direct continuation of a previous group, but I'd imagine the region has been wanting to get the hell out of the rest of the country for a good while now. ...I mean, if it all started in 2007 then why was my Father talking about it when I was a child?

Probably because he was talking about the independent movement of Lluis Companys during the Second Republic. Literally, during the Second Republic the president of Catalonia declared independence. They where brutally represed by the second Republic
This was a famous phrase of Juan Negrín, president of the Spanish II Republic during the Civil War, when with the inestability and how weak the republic was, they tried again to declare Catalonia as independent:

I am not making the war against Franco so that we can sprout in Barcelona a stupid and small-town separatism. No way. I am making the war for Spain and for Spain. For his greatness and for his greatness. Those who suppose otherwise are seriously wrong. There is only one nation: Spain! You can not consent to this deaf and persistent separatist campaign, and it has to be cut off. No one is as interested in me as in the peculiarities of his land; I love all those who refer to the Canaries, and I do not despise them, but I exalt those of other regions, but above all these peculiarities, Spain. Anyone who opposes the policy of national unity must be dismissed from his post with complete force. Before consenting to nationalist campaigns that would lead us to dismemberment, which I would in no way concede, I would give way to Franco with no other condition than to get rid of Germans and Italians. In point of the integrity of Spain I am irreducible and I will defend it from the outside and from the inside. My position is absolute and does not allow for a decrease

The Catalonian Independence movement has been always a movement from the Bourgeoisie, made from oportunism, not a national reality of the region, nor a popular movement. Even as little ago as in 2012-13 Independentists in Catalonia where a minority, and you know why? Because during Franquism Catalonia was literally the community that received more support and money, because they have had always the strongest bourgeoisie of all of Spain alongside the Vasque Country.
But I need to repeat myself and say that I believe in their right to self-determination.

**BaronIveagh**

Galas wrote:

The Catalonian Independence movement has been always a movement from the Bourgeoisie, made from oportunism, not a national reality of the region, nor a popular movement.

Something tells me that it's about to grow legs in other areas when you show the police brutalizing people trying to vote on TV

**Iron_Captain**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Saw this cool map courtesy of Wikileaks.

@JulianAssange: Map of Catalonian polling stations open vs successfully closed by Spanish state police. Green = open. Red = closed.

Heh, they would've needed a million-strong army to close that many polling posts. What the hell was the Spanish government thinking?

**Galas**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Galas wrote:

The Catalonian Independence movement has been always a movement from the Bourgeoisie, made from oportunism, not a national reality of the region, nor a popular movement.

Something tells me that it's about to grow legs in other areas when you show the police brutalizing people trying to vote on TV

Hm, maybe you are right but I don't know what to say. We have had much bigger protests and much bigger represion from the police before ,during the 15-M in 2011. And it all ended in nothing . We spaniards are very fast to forgot all of this. Is very sad but is very true.

**Orlanth**

Some early results rumour:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/01/eu-crisis-catalonian-referendum-descends-violence/

If accurate the Spanish voters seem to be smarter than the Spanish government. 42.3% turnout, which is a piss poor representation. This is poinient as a 90% backing independence is claimed. Thus Spain can claim that pro-unity voters boycotted the ballot. This deligitimises it far better than police batons do.

Orlanth wrote:This is such an incompetent feth up I have to briefly wonder if the policing was false flagged somehow. Were the police bussed in from outside? I can see smacking a few heads to prevent a ballot is a good way for quietly pro-Catalan independence policemen to get what they want.

Financial Times wrote:The independence drive was, in effect, aided by the 17,000-strong Catalan police force, which appeared unwilling to seize ballot boxes or stop the voting, drawing a stinging criticism from the national government.

https://www.ft.com/content/45585b06-a62b-11e7-ab55-27219df83c97

Also, from same link:

Financial Times wrote:As polls closed at 8pm, Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish prime minister, addressed the nation to say that the rule of law had prevailed and there had been “no self-determination referendum” in Catalonia.

Seen this before.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Complete clusterfeth in other words. An opposition that tries legitimizing a shoddy referendum by shouting that they're oppressed, and a government that proves them right when they didn't even have to.

**Hollow**

lol

**welshhoppo**

I sure hope the EU comes down hard on Spain.

You don't send the police against the people. Even if they are voting in an unauthorized referendum. Is this some back water dictatorship or a Democratic society?

**Lord Kragan**

Galas wrote:
They totally understand it, but they don't care, because when people is thinking about the catalonian cause, they aren't thinking about the corruption of the goverment, and how they are effectively doing nothing. They have been in this legislature for a full year now, and they haven't even approved the budgefs of the state. At this point, I laugh, because the reality of my country is enough to cry.

I mean, this gak was all done to pull under the rug the mess of this years' presupuestos, which could well have costed Rajoy's head. This wasn't done just on a whim.

**Galas**

Lord Kragan wrote:
Galas wrote:
They totally understand it, but they don't care, because when people is thinking about the catalonian cause, they aren't thinking about the corruption of the goverment, and how they are effectively doing nothing. They have been in this legislature for a full year now, and they haven't even approved the budgefs of the state. At this point, I laugh, because the reality of my country is enough to cry.

I mean, this gak was all done to pull under the rug the mess of this years' presupuestos, which could well have costed Rajoy's head. This wasn't done just on a whim.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. This is a MASSIVE smoke wall that benefits both the central spanish goverment and the catalan goverment. At the cost of the social unity of spain.

**Lord Kragan**

Orlanth wrote:
Ridiculous. The answer from the Spanish government would have been to veto the referendum in its own parliament on the grounds that it had not got the 2/3 majority required to pass. On top the the lawcourts.
Saying you cant have a referendum by force is something else.
Stopoping multiple repeat referendums is doable, and has a logic to it. They cant be allowed to be repeat until successful. However to deny one is a bad move, instead you make it fail in the ballot not because of a stick, then consider the matter closed. It is what the UK is doing and Canada is doing and it can work..

The Catalonian authorities will declare UDI and Spain will fall apart. The only good news is that Catalonia will be straight out the EU, the EU which is backing Spain will deny any transition period, and Catalans will want back in when the trade and funding dries up. The EU will say that is possible only via Madrid. I see this reversing quickly, Brexit is survivable, this is not. Spain now needs to back down and try and cool down, and deal with this through legislature only. Catalonia is relatively rich, but its still a club Med economy and it won't like being outside the EU one bit. Catharsis is key here. the EU is already united via the counter to Brexit, they need to extend this.

On aside this mess means is that the UK is inadvertently profiting. Division in Spain takes pressure off Gibraltar, Th same Spanish ministers bullying Catalonia was after the rock two days ago, and trouble with EU unity of any sort helps the UK post Brexit. The only winners in this sorry mess, and it had 0% to do with us and did need either of our glorious leaders May or Corbyn to do anything 'clever'.

Fun thing? They actually need spain because they have a negative commercial balance with the exterior by quite a margin...

Trust me, unless there's a trade agreement ASAP, things will turn ugly for both sides.

**Dreadwinter**

Guys, lets not jump to conclusions here until the smear campaign against the victims starts.

I bet some of these guys.... smoked weed. *GASP!*

CRIMINALS!

**SlaveToDorkness**

Ouze wrote:
BigWaaagh wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I dread to think what Trump's reaction to this will be...

You actually believe Trump has even a remote sense of awareness in this matter? That's adorable! He's probably going to think it has something to do with Kraft Catalina salad dressing being revolting!

I am sure he is saddened and dismayed that the Catalina Wine Mixer has come to this. Sad!

But.... it's the fething Catlina Wine Mixer!?!?!!

Gotta get me my BoatsnHoes.....

**whembly**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Where the feth is Antifa? They should be in Spain, not America.

Those aren't the real Antifa... just a bunch of yahoos wanting chaos on the streets.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also... I was empathetic towards the Spanish government over this ordeal as this has to be aggravating as all hell...

But, man... sending those thugs to the polling place like that has really killed it.

Reap what you sow.

**jouso**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm struggling to understand how the central government thought this was a good idea. Just let the damn referendum take place and then deal with it; there wouldn't be too much support for a separatist movement that can't even follow its own constitution. Instead they went pants-on-head and went for the police brutality option. Even disregarding the moral level, which Spain has clearly done, how is this a good plan?

That was a marvelous piece of political engineering by the Catalan govt. They kept tugging at the central govt, and so far the response had been proportionate, but apparently someone in the Moncloa was worried about the media effect of people happily voting in an unauthorised vote and they got something much much worse instead.

It's worth noting that it was a judge, not the government who declared the referendum law null, but it is still on the government to ensure that police action to enforce the judge order is proportionate.

The vote was a joke on several levels anyway. With a booth falling to the ground on live TV and revealing there were votes stuffed in there even before the station was open. Journalists being able to vote multiple times in different voting stations, etc., but the only thing that will stay etched in people's minds is the jackbooted police batoning old people with their hands raised.

I just hope this puts a lid on one of the most coward governments ever, and doesn't reward the secessionist movement. But of course this whole thing will just reinforce both extremes, as it's often the case.

**tneva82**

Yodhrin wrote:
Even if we accept that the referendum was illegal(and that's a big big if given the actual wording of the Spanish constitution and the "leanings" of the judges involved in the rulings on the matter), there is no amount of "provocation" that justifies the behaviour of the Guarda Civil today.

Not to mention it's rather ironic to say "constitution forbids independence". How many indepencies were legal? Legal wise Finland would still be part of Russia. We illegally simply declared we are independent. Doubt England's law provided much stipulation for America to get independent legally either...For that matter did Spain be formed by legal independence either?

What right gives Spain eternal right for area to current area that didn't protect whatever country Spain was part of before

**jouso**

tneva82 wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
Even if we accept that the referendum was illegal(and that's a big big if given the actual wording of the Spanish constitution and the "leanings" of the judges involved in the rulings on the matter), there is no amount of "provocation" that justifies the behaviour of the Guarda Civil today.

Not to mention it's rather ironic to say "constitution forbids independence". How many indepencies were legal? Legal wise Finland would still be part of Russia. We illegally simply declared we are independent. Doubt England's law provided much stipulation for America to get independent legally either...For that matter did Spain be formed by legal independence either?

This is not the XVIII century anymore.

Also, there is no clear-cut majority in favour of independence. On the last regional elections, there were two parties running on an independence ticket.

Junts pel Si (itself a coalition of several mainstream independentist parties) got 39,59% of the vote (but thanks to the electoral system they got 46% of MPs)
CUP (an anti-establishment, quasi-anarchist party) got 8,21%

It doesn't add up.

On the last polls (weeks before yesterday vote), support for independence was hovering just above the 40% mark.

The Catalan parliament failed to get the needed 2/3 majority to push the kind of laws were needed for a legal vote, but they did it anyway so it's no wonder a judge shut the vote down.

Stay skeptical of both extremes narrative here, the good guys are all in the middle.

**Herzlos**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Heh, they would've needed a million-strong army to close that many polling posts. What the hell was the Spanish government thinking?

They don't need to close all of them down - just scare enough people into not risking attending in order to claim it wasn't representative.

Same idea as to why such a small number of police can intimidate such a large group of people. If the civilians fought back the paramilitary (I don't think it was the actual police force) would have been destroyed.

There's not been any mention of the fire fighters on here yet? Apparently in a few areas the local fire fighters stepped in to defend the public from the paramilitaries - either by forming barriers or by fighting back. That's going to cause another completely new clusterfeth.

**jouso**

Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?

**Herzlos**

jouso wrote:
Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?

I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.

**tneva82**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Today's shameful assault on democracy goes beyond Spain. Everytime something like this happens, we, and by we I mean Europe and the USA, lose another piece of the moral high ground.

How can we lecture Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or China, or Venezuela on what's right and what's not?

By same right we have done that before past oh..centuries? We(we as in US. Finland is just following around knowing we are dependant on them) got bigger guns.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

This is not the XVIII century anymore.

Also, there is no clear-cut majority in favour of independence. On the last regional elections, there were two parties running on an independence ticket.

So standard "we have holy right to our land previous rulers didn't have when we usurped them" defence.

Bah. It was allowed to get independent then, it still is.

**Lord Kragan**

Herzlos wrote:
jouso wrote:
Who are those paramilitaries you talk about Herzlos?

I'm trying to find the reference, I'd seen a new sites mention that the 'police' in this instance were for a military-like civilian volunteer force like the US national guard, rather than the local police forces. I think there may be some confusion about terms and referring to the Civil Guard. I'm not entirely sure how they fit together though.

That's the guardia civil, who ARE actually a military force tasked with policing.