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2017/10/07 19:09:03
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I don't think so. Probably, it had some influence, of course, but the continuation of the Franco Regime was totally imposible, for the organization and international interests of the members of the Falange and other levels of the regime administration.
A sad time for Spain. But at least we can laugh at it!
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/07 20:32:44
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Galas wrote: I don't think so. Probably, it had some influence, of course, but the continuation of the Franco Regime was totally imposible, for the organization and international interests of the members of the Falange and other levels of the regime administration.
A sad time for Spain. But at least we can laugh at it!
No Germans volunteering to help provide airforce?
We not here yet.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/07 20:48:53
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The biggest reason the people in the street want independence from Spain is based in a xenophobic nationalism and in economical fallacies,.
Citation very much needed. I heard this kind of gak all the time during the Scottish independence referendum. National identity can very often have nothing what so ever to do with xenophobia or economic fairy tails and I get very twitchy when people try to brush of a genuine desire for self determination with broad handwaves and tabloid headlines.
2017/10/07 21:30:34
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jhe90 wrote:No Germans volunteering to help provide airforce?
We not here yet.
Our extreme right wing party is getting a bit more popular so… step by step :(
That's the German lefts fault.
They obviously got complacent and not dealt with what's fueling them.
Theres very real issues. And unpleasant or unpopular, you'll have to face them to end there threat. Or just ignore them.... Because that's gonna fail badly.
...
Same wit Catalan issue.
Spain has to sit down, talk, however much it might not want to.
Talking averts fights and wars or thr old phrase, jaw jaw is preferable to war war.
Thetes gonna be no answer to this that'sstable and lasting unless they sit down round table.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/07 22:26:07
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/07 22:06:33
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The biggest reason the people in the street want independence from Spain is based in a xenophobic nationalism and in economical fallacies,.
Citation very much needed. I heard this kind of gak all the time during the Scottish independence referendum. National identity can very often have nothing what so ever to do with xenophobia or economic fairy tails and I get very twitchy when people try to brush of a genuine desire for self determination with broad handwaves and tabloid headlines.
Everyone in Spain has regional identity, be it from Andalucia, Galicia, Vasque Country, Navarra, Asturias, Catalonia, etc..., and the be honest the situation in Scotland is very different, the ways Scotland and Britain did get unified in the United Kingdom was very different than the one of Aragon and Castille. And the social evolution has been very diferent too.
Thats why I don't like to compare different countries that want independence because everyone is a world in itself.
I consider myself a Galician patriot, I love my culture, my lenguage, my gastronomy, etc... but the independist ideology from catalonia is born from, as I said, from a nationalistic right that has push it towards the population. (That kind of ideologies are present too in Vasque Country and in a very small amount, Galicia)
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation. People don't want independence just for ONE motive, theres always a mixture. Of course people like self-determination, everyone want to not be commanded from other people. But just that desire without the society, cultural and historical background isn't enough for a population to desire independence.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/07 22:43:00
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/07 23:59:49
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation.
If you're going to label people who want national independence (whether Scottish or Spanish) as "xenophobic" then you'd damn well better substantiate that slur.
Put up or shut up.
2017/10/08 00:56:06
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation.
If you're going to label people who want national independence (whether Scottish or Spanish) as "xenophobic" then you'd damn well better substantiate that slur.
Put up or shut up.
Well, the ideology promoted by the Catalonian Goverment is the "Us" agaisn't "Them". Theres the idea of Catalonia and the Catalans, hard workes, possessors of all the virtues, and then you have Spain, and the Spanish, represented with all the topics you could find in a nice jokes-book. They do not differentiate between people from Canary Islands, from Galicia or Andalucia, that have 0 in common, and put them in the same box, because thats how Nationalism works. (And I'll say here that in Spain theres not only Catalan Nationalism. Theres a strong Spanish nationalism that is the same as the Catalan one but at the inverse, where they see Spain as a homogeiniced nation, based in their arbitrary definitions of whats is a good spanish, and they put all the Catalans as greedy, as seccecionists, traitors, etc...)
And I dont know why do you assume that I have generaliced, calling "all people that want national independence as xenophobic"? I have 0 idea about the Scottish independence process, thats why I haven't talked about it. I'm talking about the Catalonian one. So please don't put works in my mouth that I haven't written.
Nationalism by definition is xenophobic, thats why theres a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism. Basque Country has too a strong nationalist movement. It is based in the works of Sabino Arana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabino_Arana In his works, that guy literally said that the Basque "race" was superior to the rest of the inferior spanish one. He is the founder of the strongest party in Basque Country, the PNV (Nationalistic Basque Party).
Sabino Arana, coming from a Carlist background, created a xenophobic ideology centered on the purity of the Basque race and its so-called moral supremacy over other Spaniards (a derivation of the system of limpieza de sangre of Modern-Age Spain), anti-Liberal Catholic integrism, and deep opposition to the migration of other Spaniards to the Basque Country.
The Catalonian movement doesn't has as strong as a xenophobic and nationalistic foundation (But they have their own revisionistic and totally nationalistic organizations like the ANC, with the famous Víctor Cucurull) , because this wave of their independentism is much recent, but their narrative has been the same. I believe that if you talked to a convinced catalonian independentists you'll understand what I'm saying.
And yes D-Usa, the two strongest points about the independentists narrative are the economical ones and the nationalistic ones(Pushed by both ERC, and the CUP, the first ones are the same guys that have been ruling Catalonia for decades alongside CiU, barring a small period between 2003 and 2010 where they where pushed by the PSC, and are totally muddy in a long, long lists of corruption cases, being a right "nationalistic" bourgeoisie party, the second ones are the anti-capitalist from the left, that to be honest, I believe are the ones that truly believe in the possibility of Independence, but don't take my words as a fact. ) One just need to watch or ear their press conferences, and their rallys througth the years.
I'm not calling them xenophobic in the "Omg they are xenophobic, they are the worst" way. I'm calling them xenophobic because their Nationalistic movement, as all the nationalistic movement, is based in xenophoby, in a "Us" vs "Them", in the virtuous people and the sinful extrangers. In this case, Catalonians vs Spanish people. When, as I said before, people from other parts of Spain has 0 relation or similarities with the rest of Spain in the way the catalonian goverment paints them. I could look for many information about the Catalonian Nationalistic revisionism of history, but I can't find them with english subtitles. If you know spanish I could link them if you are interested?
Spoiler:
I don't like this video because they are only fragments, and of course the source is biased agaisn't independentism, but this is genuinely what this guy and their platform believe and spreads in the nationalistic and independentist movement. If you don't understand what he's saying I could transcript it to english if you like. But this guy is basically the "head" of a institute, subsidizied by the Catalan Goverment, to revisionism history and make everything catalan, saying things like Catalonia existed since the 2700 before Christ, that Cristobal Colón was from Catalonia, etc... theres many nice quotes and speeches from the heads of catalonian institutions about how ""Spain is our enemy", or "People that don't speak catalá isn't catalan", "Spanish people are thiefs for the fact that they are spanish", etc...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19tAN2JGNVk
And yes, I'm making generalisations here, of course. I'm not calling all catalonians or even all independentists xenophobics, or nationalists, or that they want independence because economical reasons. Every individual is unique and they'll have their own opinion in the matter. I'm talking about the biggest parts of the Catalan Goverment narrative, and those are two: Economical reasons, Nationalistic reasons. I don't know what to say, just like Trump had his Wall, one of the biggest phrases of the independists movement was "Espanya ens roba" (Spain steal us)
Spoiler:
And with all of this, I don't want to defend in any shape or form the Central Goverment, their actions, or the ones of the police. They are even worse, full of corruption and with 0 interest for the well being of their citizens. They are more a Mafia than a goverment. Personally I'm republican. I want a reform of the constitution and a Federal State for Spain, but I'm not a Independentists, not a Galician one, and obviously not a Catalonian one.
This message was edited 22 times. Last update was at 2017/10/08 02:19:02
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/08 05:11:35
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Nationalism by definition is xenophobic, thats why theres a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism.
This is where you are wrong. Nationalism certainly can be xenophobic, and historically almost always was, but civic nationalism is a very real thing. Civic nationalism is at the heart of the Scottish independence movement, arguably that is why it is so successful, and the Catalonian independence movement certainly seems to be civic in nature. The old 'blood and soil' nationalism is a dying force although it is unfortunately not dead yet.
Us Vs Them cuts both ways and the Spanish government seem to be working very hard to be as divisive as possible.
People to want to be independent because their own personal national identity doesn't match that of their parent nation state. Lots of factors feed into this of course but that's the bottom line.
2017/10/08 05:18:54
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Nationalism by definition is xenophobic, thats why theres a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism.
This is where you are wrong. Nationalism certainly can be xenophobic, and historically almost always was, but civic nationalism is a very real thing. Civic nationalism is at the heart of the Scottish independence movement, arguably that is why it is so successful, and the Catalonian independence movement certainly seems to be civic in nature. The old 'blood and soil' nationalism is a dying force although it is unfortunately not dead yet.
Us Vs Them cuts both ways and the Spanish government seem to be working very hard to be as divisive as possible.
People to want to be independent because their own personal national identity doesn't match that of their parent nation state. Lots of factors feed into this of course but that's the bottom line.
Indeed. Nationalism is not inherently Xenophobic. It often shows up together, but they are not the same thing.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Nationalism by definition is xenophobic, thats why theres a difference between Nationalism and Patriotism.
This is where you are wrong. Nationalism certainly can be xenophobic, and historically almost always was, but civic nationalism is a very real thing. Civic nationalism is at the heart of the Scottish independence movement, arguably that is why it is so successful, and the Catalonian independence movement certainly seems to be civic in nature. The old 'blood and soil' nationalism is a dying force although it is unfortunately not dead yet.
Us Vs Them cuts both ways and the Spanish government seem to be working very hard to be as divisive as possible.
People to want to be independent because their own personal national identity doesn't match that of their parent nation state. Lots of factors feed into this of course but that's the bottom line.
Indeed. Nationalism is not inherently Xenophobic. It often shows up together, but they are not the same thing.
To be fair once you divide a clean line between patriotism and nationalism and cease using them as synonyms this is kind of what you're left with. And he did divide that line, so maybe deal with whether or not Catalonian independence is as he described instead of jumping down his throat about the semantics. He's pretty obviously using a very text book definition (political science one anyway), which in part defines nationalism as a cultural force with a sense of superiority over the "other" and under that definition it does go hand in hand with a certain degree of xenophobia and ethnocentrism.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/08 06:08:00
LordofHats wrote: He's pretty obviously using a very text book definition (political science one anyway), which in part defines nationalism as a cultural force with a sense of superiority over the "other" and under that definition it does go hand in hand with a certain degree of xenophobia and ethnocentrism.
Well that textbook clearly needs a new edition.
2017/10/08 07:14:59
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
LordofHats wrote: He's pretty obviously using a very text book definition (political science one anyway), which in part defines nationalism as a cultural force with a sense of superiority over the "other" and under that definition it does go hand in hand with a certain degree of xenophobia and ethnocentrism.
Well that textbook clearly needs a new edition.
No amount of editions in the world is going to help if you refuse to read them.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2017/10/08 08:52:08
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation.
_
If you're going to label people who want national independence (whether Scottish or Spanish) as "xenophobic" then you'd damn well better substantiate that slur.
Put up or shut up.
Well, I suppose I should bring to the fore the many, many times the CiU and ERC guys (and quite a few high ranking ones) who complained about lazy andalucians stealing the good catalanas' jobs, shouldn't I? That's actually the tip of the Iceberg but Catalonians aren't the peak of cosmopolitanism.
Theres no such thing as citation because this is not a black or white situation.
Then kindly refrain from making black and white statements.
So how about you refrain from making this statements instead and do provide something actually productive to the debate? Because there's a heavy component of misinformation/delusion in the Catalonian's economical arguments: all their arguments are founded in an entirely ceteris paribus basis, which is unsusatainble considering the huge change they are going to undergo and the fact that almost every major EU institution said: no, you ain't getting automatically into the Union guys.
2017/10/08 09:16:12
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
So how about you refrain from making this statements instead and do provide something actually productive to the debate?
I have been, certainly at least as productive as casting an entire separatist movement as a bunch of racists.
Oh man the strawman is real. I think you'd better properly read Galas' comment, where he says that xenophobia is A component, not THE component, which doesn't meant AT ALL he's saying the whole movement is racist.
2017/10/08 11:09:10
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Lord Kragan wrote: where he says that xenophobia is A component, not THE component
The "biggest component".
I have seen the exact same gak flung about during the Scottish Indyref and it seems to be replicated here. It was gak then and its highly likely to the gak here as well.
Robust debate is fine, it is afterall an emotive issue, but there is no need to start wheeling out propaganda.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/08 11:10:57
2017/10/08 12:09:43
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Us Vs Them cuts both ways and the Spanish government seem to be working very hard to be as divisive as possible.
And I agree. I have agree with that from the beginning. I'm in no shape or form defending the Central Spanish Goverment because for me they are even worse. But theres more sides in this than supporting the central goverment no matter what or supporting the independists catalonian goverment no matter what.
Galas wrote: (And I'll say here that in Spain theres not only Catalan Nationalism. Theres a strong Spanish nationalism that is the same as the Catalan one but at the inverse, where they see Spain as a homogeiniced nation, based in their arbitrary definitions of whats is a good spanish, and they put all the Catalans as greedy, as seccecionists, traitors, etc...)
Guys, if you don't want to believe me, thats fine. I have tried to give your a historical background and the present ideology of the Catalonian Goverment, giving you sources, but if you don't want to believe me and say that I'm just calling them racist, thats fine. I'm just a random dude on the internet. You are totally free to look for your information and to make your own opinion, and I encourage you to do so.
But I'll just disagree about Nationalism not being xenophobic. As LordofHats said, I clearly separate what you call Civi Nationalism (Patriotism) from Nationalism. You can disagree, of course, and think otherwise, thats fine, just wanting to make my opinion clear.
But theres nothing that I hate more than putting a wall of text that I have edited 22 times to try to give all the information I can and be clear as possible just to be ignored, for people to quote one small line about if Nathionalism is by definition xenophobic or not and ignore the rest and to repeat 4 posts after it that I'm calling them a bunch of racists because LOL. And thats not what I have said. I have said that the ideology of the Catalonian Goverment is one based in a Xenophobic Nationalism, and the biggest part of the Independists narrative has been economical and nationalistic. And I'm gonna Keep my stance on that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/08 14:30:45
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/08 15:50:13
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The divisions and identities still run pretty deep.
They have a strong regional identity. The Spanish government needs to talk this one out. Force might work short term but ideinties, cultures run deep and will only come to head again down the line.
Then you use Stalin's trick and arrest or kill everyone of any regional ethnicity and deport them to a random place in the rest of the country.
Or the US thing where the government steals or kills their children, raises them to worship the state, and then abandons them back in their homelands with no idea how to survive.
Both damage regional and cultural identities pretty well, and are only an act of genocide if your country is unimportant.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2017/10/08 16:02:48
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
But theres nothing that I hate more than putting a wall of text that I have edited 22 times to try to give all the information I can and be clear as possible just to be ignored, for people to quote one small line about if Nathionalism is by definition xenophobic or not and ignore the rest and to repeat 4 posts after it that I'm calling them a bunch of racists because LOL.
In general I only reply to a single point in any post to prevent threads being nothing but giant walls of quotes and the 'Xenophobia' sentence was the most important as it is language that I have heard before in a similar incorrect context.
2017/10/08 16:18:57
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
And I'm not talking in any point about the Scothis independence movement because I know 0 about it. But theres this idea, that every independence movement is similar or the same in his core, and that they are all equally legitimate. When it is not. Even if they have similarities, the independence of a region or nation doesn't has to be the same or even similar to the background that has birth the independence sentiment of other nation.
So when I say that one of the strongests narratives of the Catalonian pro-independence goverment is a xenophobic and nationalistic one, thats what I'm saying. I'm not extrapolating it to "all" independence movements ,not the Scothish one, not the Finland one, not the Indian one, because I have 0 idea about the background of those movements and their social and political peculiarities.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/08 16:21:51
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/08 16:26:28
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The divisions and identities still run pretty deep.
They have a strong regional identity. The Spanish government needs to talk this one out. Force might work short term but ideinties, cultures run deep and will only come to head again down the line.
Then you use Stalin's trick and arrest or kill everyone of any regional ethnicity and deport them to a random place in the rest of the country.
Or the US thing where the government steals or kills their children, raises them to worship the state, and then abandons them back in their homelands with no idea how to survive.
Both damage regional and cultural identities pretty well, and are only an act of genocide if your country is unimportant.
Spain does not have nuclear weapons though, so unlike Russia or the US, it is possible for them to commit genocide. As far as I can see, there is only 2 ways of succesfully dealing with an independence movement: The Scottish way: In which you engage in negotiations and talks with the independence movement, make compromises to keep them happy and steal their supporters away and if that's not enough even give them a fair referendum (which you of course will try to swing in your favour by reminding them of how horrible being independent is for the economy.).
And the Grozny way: In which you simply kill everyone who wants independence using lots of artillery and bombs (and everyone else who just so happens to be anywhere near someone wanting independence, like living in the same city).
The Scottish way is peaceful and democratic, so everyone will like you, but like all democratic things carries the risk that the side you do not want to win wins. The Grozny way involves lots of artillery and tanks and explosions and other cool stuff. It is also extremely effective in making sure the region does not go independent. However, it carries a risk that pictures of dead kids end up in the media and that everyone will hate you as a result (not the independence people though, they are dead).
Let us hope that Spain goes for the Scottish ways and starts some serious talks with the Catalans.
But theres nothing that I hate more than putting a wall of text that I have edited 22 times to try to give all the information I can and be clear as possible just to be ignored, for people to quote one small line about if Nathionalism is by definition xenophobic or not and ignore the rest and to repeat 4 posts after it that I'm calling them a bunch of racists because LOL.
In general I only reply to a single point in any post to prevent threads being nothing but giant walls of quotes and the 'Xenophobia' sentence was the most important as it is language that I have heard before in a similar incorrect context.
That is cherry picking. It is a fallacy and not conductive to a good discussion. If you want to have a polite, civilised discussion with people you will have to address all of their points, not just the ones you can use to strengthen your position or the ones you can turn into straw men. As Galas has found out, it usually leads to straw men and the whole discussion exaggerating and then focusing on something that is not actually part of the original discussion at all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/08 16:33:12
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2017/10/08 16:33:43
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Seems Trumpishness has infected the area as well, with police saying the Union ralley was about 300k while organizers insist it was almost a million.
It would be hilarious if the police had stolen all the No votes.
That's old news. Independentists always claimed 1+ million attendees while the authorities usually shaved it down to a third too. Hard for the authorities to do otherwise in this case.
2017/10/08 16:47:36
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
That is a constant here. In the "Diada" or independists Rallys, you have the central Goverment saying that they where something like 250k-300k people and the catalonian police and goverment saying that they where 1-2 million.
Personally, I tend to side with the numbers of the ones with more control and knowledge about that, in this kind of cases, the police.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
