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For those on dakka who know me, I have been asking this question for a long, long, time: what happened to all the competent politicians and statesmen in the West?

Once again, Rajoy has shown himself to be a blundering amateur, somebody who would struggle to find a tombstone in a graveyard.

What will Madrid do if a pro-indy majority is returned again? And there's a good chance this could happen.

Meanwhile, the EU continue to turn a blind eye to this, and give a nod and a wink to Madrid. It's one of the reasons why I utterly despise the EU.

I hope there will be a peaceful solution to this mess, but with Rajoy pulling the strings, I can only foresee disaster on the horizon.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
.
What will Madrid do if a pro-indy majority is returned again? And there's a good chance this could happen.

No there isn't. On the latest poll the PDCat (Puigdemont party) has burned itself to irrelevance (under 10%) while the CUP has almost halved (circa 5%). Only ERC holds because Junqueras has been kept outside the limelight while Puigdemont has taken the brunt of the hit.

And in January it will only get worse as the economic consequences will keep trickling.

I do agree Rajoy is a blustering coward, and a bearded mannequin would do a better job as president though.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Meanwhile, the EU continue to turn a blind eye to this, and give a nod and a wink to Madrid. It's one of the reasons why I utterly despise the EU.

And when the EU tells Poland it can't just dismantle its independent judiciary you protest because it's interfering with a sovereign state. The EU could solve world hunger and bring about world peace and you'd be complaining that they're evil.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For those on dakka who know me, I have been asking this question for a long, long, time: what happened to all the competent politicians and statesmen in the West?

Once again, Rajoy has shown himself to be a blundering amateur, somebody who would struggle to find a tombstone in a graveyard.

What will Madrid do if a pro-indy majority is returned again? And there's a good chance this could happen.

Meanwhile, the EU continue to turn a blind eye to this, and give a nod and a wink to Madrid. It's one of the reasons why I utterly despise the EU.

I hope there will be a peaceful solution to this mess, but with Rajoy pulling the strings, I can only foresee disaster on the horizon.

The EU threatens sanctions against Poland because they stood up to them. By criticising them and refusing to take in immigrants they earned their ire, even though it was all peaceful. The EU then turn a blind eye to the events in Spain because Madrid toes their line. Even though they were having people beaten to a pulp. They can't give us that "respecting sovereignty" bollocks because they're perfectly happy to break it when it suits them. Scumbags.

Yep. Totes didn't have anything to do with Poland trying to dismantle one of the cornerstones of a working democratic society. No sir.

jouso wrote:

No there isn't.

Remember the Americans said the same thing about Trump.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yep. Totes didn't have anything to do with Poland trying to dismantle one of the cornerstones of a working democratic society. No sir.

Poland isn't doing that, quite the opposite in fact.
The Poles realise that unrestricted immigration is socially damaging, an aren't going to be bleeding heart about whether or not they like to embrace jihadism or rape gangs. Elsewhere in many parts of Europe the horrible consequences are being swept aside or flat out denied.
What type of working democratic society denies the existence of rape culture, as has happened in the UK, Germany and Sweden. Poland has seen the BS and wisely wants no part of it.

 Orlanth wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yep. Totes didn't have anything to do with Poland trying to dismantle one of the cornerstones of a working democratic society. No sir.

Poland isn't doing that, quite the opposite in fact.
The Poles realise that unrestricted immigration is socially damaging, an aren't going to be bleeding heart about whether or not they like to embrace jihadism or rape gangs. Elsewhere in many parts of Europe the horrible consequences are being swept aside or flat out denied.
What type of working democratic society denies the existence of rape culture, as has happened in the UK, Germany and Sweden. Poland has seen the BS and wisely wants no part of it.

I was referring to the fact that they wanted to give the government the power to dismiss judges in the supreme court. The EU:s criticism of Poland for their heavy-handed reforms to media jurisdiction likewise has nothing to do with immigration.

I'd also ask you to substantiate your claims, but last time we had this "debate" you lied through your nose (or were completely ignorant, but I'll assume you're competent), so I'm not going to bother.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Why do a lot of people keep talking about these mythical catalans?
Are they some kind of cat people?
The Spanish region is called Catalonia in English, and it inhabitants are Catalonians, so who are you people discussing?

Catalans is the proper word for people from Catalonia (for comparison, the word is Catalans in Catalan, Catalanes in Spanish and Catalans in French).
The -ia part in Catalonia is only a noun-forming suffix. Such suffixes are sometimes left out when you make another noun (the name of the people) that is derived from the same root. This is why people from Scotland are Scots and not Scotlanders or people from Germany are Germans and not Germanians. In many other cases it stays in place (Iceland, Icelanders, Italy, Italians etc). And then there is the rare case where the name of the people comes from an entirely different root (the Netherlands, Dutch). There are no real rules as to why people from Germany are German but people from Italy are not Italan. It is simply a matter of custom that is usually derived from the native language of the people you are talking about. That is why you get so many variations and 'weird' situations, and it is why the english language prefers Catalans over Catalonians (to compare, Google gives 12,800,000 results for "Catalans" but only 259,000 results for "Catalonians". My spellchecker also recognises Catalans but not Catalonians.).

 Orlanth wrote:

The Rest of the Planet realized that unrestricted British Invasion is socially damaging, and are not going to be bleeding hearts about whether or not they like to embrace British Imperialism or rape gangs.

Fixed to reflect the level of hypocrisy involved here. I'll say this for refugee Rape Gangs, they were not preconceived as instruments of state, unlike SOME former globe straddling Empires. Maybe that's why England is so xenophobic. They know karma's on it's way around, and isn't going to use Vaseline.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Why do a lot of people keep talking about these mythical catalans?
Are they some kind of cat people?
The Spanish region is called Catalonia in English, and it inhabitants are Catalonians, so who are you people discussing?

Weirdly, we learned it as Iberians, but that would also include Portugal.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Meanwhile, the EU continue to turn a blind eye to this, and give a nod and a wink to Madrid. It's one of the reasons why I utterly despise the EU.

And when the EU tells Poland it can't just dismantle its independent judiciary you protest because it's interfering with a sovereign state. The EU could solve world hunger and bring about world peace and you'd be complaining that they're evil.

A common accusation levelled at people like me is that you complain when the EU interferes, and complain when it doesn't.

When I'm wrong, I don't mind admitting I'm wrong. When I'm being a hypocrite, I don't mind admitting to that either.

But I'm just one man on an internet forum shouting at a loud. My actions or words have very little consequence for the vast majority.

The same couldn't be said for the EU. They only believe in European values when it suits them.

They were very slow to condemn police brutality in Catalonia, and they are hiding behind a wall of legality and turning a blind eye to Spanish tyranny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
For those on dakka who know me, I have been asking this question for a long, long, time: what happened to all the competent politicians and statesmen in the West?

Once again, Rajoy has shown himself to be a blundering amateur, somebody who would struggle to find a tombstone in a graveyard.

What will Madrid do if a pro-indy majority is returned again? And there's a good chance this could happen.

Meanwhile, the EU continue to turn a blind eye to this, and give a nod and a wink to Madrid. It's one of the reasons why I utterly despise the EU.

I hope there will be a peaceful solution to this mess, but with Rajoy pulling the strings, I can only foresee disaster on the horizon.

The EU threatens sanctions against Poland because they stood up to them. By criticising them and refusing to take in immigrants they earned their ire, even though it was all peaceful. The EU then turn a blind eye to the events in Spain because Madrid toes their line. Even though they were having people beaten to a pulp. They can't give us that "respecting sovereignty" bollocks because they're perfectly happy to break it when it suits them. Scumbags.

Exactly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
.
What will Madrid do if a pro-indy majority is returned again? And there's a good chance this could happen.

No there isn't. On the latest poll the PDCat (Puigdemont party) has burned itself to irrelevance (under 10%) while the CUP has almost halved (circa 5%). Only ERC holds because Junqueras has been kept outside the limelight while Puigdemont has taken the brunt of the hit.

And in January it will only get worse as the economic consequences will keep trickling.

I do agree Rajoy is a blustering coward, and a bearded mannequin would do a better job as president though.

For an outsider like me, it's hard to tell what's happening in Spain. I certainly don't trust the British media to do their job. The BBC's coverage of the referendum and police brutality, was an utter disgrace.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A common accusation levelled at people like me is that you complain when the EU interferes, and complain when it doesn't.

Well gee no wonder since that is what you do. You have irrational hate of eu and claim everything is their fault twisting facts to suit. They interfere? You blame them for that. If they hadn't you would blame them for that.

Pointlesswto "discuss" with that attitude

tneva82 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A common accusation levelled at people like me is that you complain when the EU interferes, and complain when it doesn't.

Well gee no wonder since that is what you do. You have irrational hate of eu and claim everything is their fault twisting facts to suit. They interfere? You blame them for that. If they hadn't you would blame them for that.

Pointlesswto "discuss" with that attitude

I'm trying to stay OT here, but your point highlights my issue with the EU. They try to be all things to all men, and end up falling flat on their faces. It's a Goldilocks institution. can't be too hot, can't be too cold, we'll interfere here, but won't interfere there. It's ll drift and inertia. And it causes an awful lot of problems.

They stick their noses in when they scent an easy victory on a minor issue (Poland) and they turn a blind eye to genuine brutality (Spain) when their project could be at risk.

To use an old British saying, the EU need to gak or get off the toilet seat.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

A common accusation levelled at people like me is that you complain when the EU interferes, and complain when it doesn't.

Well gee no wonder since that is what you do. You have irrational hate of eu and claim everything is their fault twisting facts to suit. They interfere? You blame them for that. If they hadn't you would blame them for that.

Pointlesswto "discuss" with that attitude

I'm trying to stay OT here, but your point highlights my issue with the EU. They try to be all things to all men, and end up falling flat on their faces. It's a Goldilocks institution. can't be too hot, can't be too cold, we'll interfere here, but won't interfere there. It's ll drift and inertia. And it causes an awful lot of problems.

They stick their noses in when they scent an easy victory on a minor issue (Poland) and they turn a blind eye to genuine brutality (Spain) when their project could be at risk.

To use an old British saying, the EU need to gak or get off the toilet seat.

They are inconsistent in upholding the founding principles and values of the EU.

They'll send EU Ministers to Kiev to publicly endorse the Maiden uprising, but when Catalonia's independence movement is violently repressed by Madrid, it barely provokes a whimper out of the EU?

I don't want the EU interfering in the domestic affairs of nation states. But they can and they do, when its convenient for the EU. So I'd prefer they at least be consistent, and not hypocritical.

They are inconsistent in upholding the founding principles and values of the EU.

They'll send EU Ministers to Kiev to publicly endorse the Maiden uprising, but when Catalonia's independence movement is violently repressed by Madrid, it barely provokes a whimper out of the EU?

I don't want the EU interfering in the domestic affairs of nation states. But they can and they do, when its convenient for the EU. So I'd prefer they at least be consistent, and not hypocritical

What I tried to say, but better

EU can **** ********** ***

The EU is great, working together so closely brings many benefits to the countries of Europe. But yeah. They do need to be consistent and not forget about their principles as soon as those become politically inconvenient. Right now the way they act isn't exactly doing a lot of good to repair their cracked image.
The EU should have been taking a more active role in the Catalonia question. Get the two sides together and force them to make a compromise. The way they behave regarding Poland and Ukraine clearly shows that the EU has no problem meddling in internal affairs of states (in fact, meddling in internal affairs of states is a big part of the EU's job). Spain should be no different.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


I'd also ask you to substantiate your claims, but last time we had this "debate" you lied through your nose (or were completely ignorant, but I'll assume you're competent), so I'm not going to bother.

If you are going to dare call me a lier, put up your claim.

As for problems with Islamification here are some examples:

Rotherham, during the New Labour years paedophilia was underinvestigated by the police for fears of being 'racist' by targeting predominantly Islamic offenders. This is still a problem today, but the Cameron government took action on the issue. Prior to this it was 'racism' to report the issue.
Sweden is in a similar position as the UK was, but in Sweden the status quo is still in denial. During New Labour years in the UK there was no statistical evidence for the rise in Islamic rape culture, we knew it was happening but officially it wasn't. It took a change of government and government policy for the truth to emerge.

Sweden on paper is nice and safe, in reality its the rape capital of Europe, Islamic violence is also on the rise in the streets but declining in the official statistics.

It is nice to be able to proclaim "X is on the rise" with no evidence, and declare any evidence to the counter just part of a conspiracy of political correctness.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

The Rest of the Planet realized that unrestricted British Invasion is socially damaging, and are not going to be bleeding hearts about whether or not they like to embrace British Imperialism or rape gangs.

Fixed to reflect the level of hypocrisy involved here. I'll say this for refugee Rape Gangs, they were not preconceived as instruments of state, unlike SOME former globe straddling Empires. Maybe that's why England is so xenophobic. They know karma's on it's way around, and isn't going to use Vaseline.

Hostile fixed it for you's are not allowed on Dakka.
Racist ones doubly so.

And for the record, when the British was invading people, so was everyone else who could, including Spain, France and even the USA. Don't highlight one nation in isolation for 19th century actions by 21st century morals.

EDIT: On second thought, feth this. It's widely off-topic and all this "debate" would achieve is to get the thread locked.

Yeah. And Catalan is not over yet.

155 declared.

450k at a protest in Barcelona alone.
Thats 25% of thr city.

Some are calling it a coup. Others seemed to have apcepted it.
So. A mix.

 LordofHats wrote:
It is nice to be able to proclaim "X is on the rise" with no evidence, and declare any evidence to the counter just part of a conspiracy of political correctness.

There is plenty of evidence. Google it. I would try 'Birmingham Islamification schools 2010', and 'Rotherham rape gangs' for starters.
Then come back and bleat 'no evidence' if you like.

As for the counter evidence for that to. Again you can Google it. Look for articles prior to 2010.

Rotherham is a great example of this. the systemic rapes occured for years, and the police were aware. Action against them started after 2010.

I have second hand experience of the Islamification of schools in Birmingham (know the parents of kids involved) and the rife discrimination. However there was not a peep in the press about it until 2010 when the Cameron government dealt with the issue.

The tories had/have many faults, but they dealt with the rape culture and the brainwashing of primary school children and associated discrimination.

From being a story with near zero press time outside the Daily Mail, who were actually telling the truth on this issue; it was suddenly all over the press and police were taking action. Now you either had to assume that suddenly after Cameron took office rape gangs and Islamified schools just appeared, or that the problems were already there and were being ignored because they were not politically correct.

As for Sweden, and Germany, the situation is similar to the UK, plenty of anecdotal evidence but little statistical. However the reports we are seeing are pretty telling. Malmo, Cologne etc the list goes on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:
Yeah. And Catalan is not over yet.

155 declared.

450k at a protest in Barcelona alone.
Thats 25% of thr city.

Some are calling it a coup. Others seemed to have accepted it.
So. A mix.

Invoking article 155 is the latest in a series of over-reactions.

Puidgemeont has several options. He has threatened to declare UDI if article 155 is triggered. Alternately he can hold an election and pull the rug from under Madrid. Assuming he wins the vote he would be re-legitimised and make Madrid's position very difficult.

Fething idiots. It need not have come to this.

 Orlanth wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
It is nice to be able to proclaim "X is on the rise" with no evidence, and declare any evidence to the counter just part of a conspiracy of political correctness.

There is plenty of evidence. Google it. I would try 'Birmingham Islamification schools 2010', and 'Rotherham rape gangs' for starters.
Then come back and bleat 'no evidence' if you like.

As for the counter evidence for that to. Again you can Google it. Look for articles prior to 2010.

Rotherham is a great example of this. the systemic rapes occured for years, and the police were aware. Action against them started after 2010.

I have second hand experience of the Islamification of schools in Birmingham (know the parents of kids involved) and the rife discrimination. However there was not a peep in the press about it until 2010 when the Cameron government dealt with the issue.

The tories had/have many faults, but they dealt with the rape culture and the brainwashing of primary school children and associated discrimination.

From being a story with near zero press time outside the Daily Mail, who were actually telling the truth on this issue; it was suddenly all over the press and police were taking action. Now you either had to assume that suddenly after Cameron took office rape gangs and Islamified schools just appeared, or that the problems were already there and were being ignored because they were not politically correct.

As for Sweden, and Germany, the situation is similar to the UK, plenty of anecdotal evidence but little statistical. However the reports we are seeing are pretty telling. Malmo, Cologne etc the list goes on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:
Yeah. And Catalan is not over yet.

155 declared.

450k at a protest in Barcelona alone.
Thats 25% of thr city.

Some are calling it a coup. Others seemed to have accepted it.
So. A mix.

Invoking article 155 is the latest in a series of over-reactions.

Puidgemeont has several options. He has threatened to declare UDI if article 155 is triggered. Alternately he can hold an election and pull the rug from under Madrid. Assuming he wins the vote he would be re-legitimised and make Madrid's position very difficult.

Fething idiots. It need not have come to this.

Yeah a election going Madrid way. Kills this. Stone dead.

If it goes Catalan. Then things get dicey. And two Italian regions. Quite wealthy saw idea of autonomy and mutterings.

Its a far bigger issue than just Spain now.
It's Italian. Maybe France...

 Orlanth wrote:
Google it. I would try 'Birmingham Islamification schools 2010',

A single incident is not indicative of a trend, and if it is then I demand we address Christians trying to spread extremist beliefs in education. Personally I think a handful of people with radical ideas is a comparatively minor problem when they can't get past institutional systems and have no broad community support but hey if this is now the standard of evidence we're running with I formally declare that Christian radicals are trying to take over British schools and perpetuate hateful and bigoted ideas that have no place in education.

and 'Rotherham rape gangs' for starters.

Then you'll be dealing with the Catholics then?

However the reports we are seeing are pretty telling.

Except for the one's you've chosen to ignore naturally.

I have second hand experience of the Islamification of schools in Birmingham

Oh well never mind then. I didn't realize you had anecdotal evidence of a pervasive cultural problem effecting entire countries that no one else knows. Clearly national studies and stats are completely disproven by your sole personal experience and cherry picked reading of reports.

Sooner or later you're going to have to realize that singular incidents however real do not form a persistent trend across a country, especially not when you blow one of them out of proportion, or that the problem isn't even remotely unique to Muslims. It's the same bs every time this topic comes up, pointed out to you by the same people, and yet we're here again. Of course that's completely bs. You're never going to realize it.

[quote=jhe90 741003 9661559 46327707c26a61415d67beb18975dc38.jpg

Yeah a election going Madrid way. Kills this. Stone dead.

If it goes Catalan. Then things get dicey. And two Italian regions. Quite wealthy saw idea of autonomy and mutterings.

Its a far bigger issue than just Spain now.
It's Italian. Maybe France...

 Orlanth wrote:

And for the record, when the British was invading people, so was everyone else who could, including Spain, France and even the USA. Don't highlight one nation in isolation for 19th century actions by 21st century morals.

I initially wrote a nasty, historically accurate, but very nasty, response to this. Since England didn't limit it's rape and invasion to just the 19th Century., but has closer to a thousand years of rape and invasion under it's belt.

And, if you're going to call me racist, alongside your gross exaggerations about non-white refugees, all I can say is 'Kettle, How Black Thou Art.' After all, the main authors of the refugee issue are England and France. The nations doing the least and protesting the most. Oh, and the US, but they were late comers to this party.

However, this is wildly off topic.

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-41712725/spain-fm-many-police-violence-pictures-fake

The Spanish Government is declaring that the images of police beating people were faked, and the whole thing was 'Fake News'.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-41712725/spain-fm-many-police-violence-pictures-fake

The Spanish Government is declaring that the images of police beating people were faked, and the whole thing was 'Fake News'.

The "just declare it fake" strategy. If it's good enough for the internet its good enough for the state

I am disappointed however by the remarkable lack of effort. Not even a video of someone holding up a photo with some cool red circles and explaining how it's photo-shopped? Come on Spain. You can't even put as much effort into it as the moon landing nuts and the 9/11 Truthers? Disappointing

 LordofHats wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Google it. I would try 'Birmingham Islamification schools 2010',

A single incident is not indicative of a trend.

Sorry neither were single incidents. Try googling again/at all. These were serious ongoing problems. In Birmingham the schools radicalisation was long-term ongoing and multi-site, at least six schools were placed under administration. This occurred almost immediately after the change of government, and was due to a change in policy on tolerance of abuse not a sudden awareness of the problems existence.
The Rotherham rape scandal was again long ongoing, and dealt with by a change in government.

As for analysing trends multiple incidences are indicative, and we certainly have that.

 LordofHats wrote:

and 'Rotherham rape gangs' for starters.

Then you'll be dealing with the Catholics then?

No this was, if you checked, about Islamic grooming gangs which the police were aware of but turned a blind eye to because it might offend multi-cultural sensibilities to arrest minorities gang raping children.
In one ugly incident (and AFAIK this was isolated) the parent of a victim was arrested for harrassment after trying to rescue his daughter.

I dont know where Catholism comes into it, except in your head.

 LordofHats wrote:

I have second hand experience of the Islamification of schools in Birmingham

Oh well never mind then. I didn't realize you had anecdotal evidence of a pervasive cultural problem effecting entire countries that no one else knows. Clearly national studies and stats are completely disproven by your sole personal experience and cherry picked reading of reports.

Yes I did know anecdotal evidence and knew that it was a major problem that was not being addressed because again it involved children again the authorities were aware but unwilling to act because othe thnicities of the perpetratiors. The whole issue however broke news after new Labour lost the election and was replaced by a new government with different agendas.

 LordofHats wrote:

Sooner or later you're going to have to realize that singular incidents however real do not form a persistent trend across a country....

Don't patronise me. I was aware of this a priori, which is hardly therefore a position of ignorance and saw what I knew hit the press and a later government take action on it.

 LordofHats wrote:

, especially not when you blow one of them out of proportion, or that the problem isn't even remotely unique to Muslims. It's the same bs every time this topic comes up, pointed out to you by the same people, and yet we're here again. Of course that's completely bs. You're never going to realize it.

Rape is not a blown out of proportion issue. And as this is now in the public domain, with trials etc. You can hardly consider me confused or innaccurate for commenting on known facts, that were proven in a court of law.

If the 'same people', whoever they are, are in denial about known facts, then that is their problem not mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

And for the record, when the British was invading people, so was everyone else who could, including Spain, France and even the USA. Don't highlight one nation in isolation for 19th century actions by 21st century morals.

I initially wrote a nasty, historically accurate, but very nasty, response to this.

I am sure you would, because your vitriliolic hatred of the English is well understood from previous encounters.
I wouldnt hold my breath about it being historically accurate though.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Since England didn't limit it's rape and invasion to just the 19th Century., but has closer to a thousand years of rape and invasion under it's belt.

Good example here. You even single out the English even when referring earlier to events after the treaty of Union. i.e the British.
Also a thousand years or rape. Seems you have been watching too much Braveheart, and worse probably think it's accurate. A thousand years ago England was still ruled by the Anglo Saxons, who generally went nowhere, while the Normans after them did some nasty stuff, it was on a par with the rest of medieval society, in fact the history of the islands was a whole lot less bloody than that on the continent for almost the entireity of the last millenia. Also in the 10th century or after human rights didn't mean a whole lot, to just about anyone. If you want to single out one people group over this over such a long time ago, it is looking more like a mental health issue on your part. Give it up.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

And, if you're going to call me racist, alongside your gross exaggerations about non-white refugees, all I can say is 'Kettle, How Black Thou Art.'

Interesting to find out about these supported gross exaggerations about non-white refugees. And where you get the idea that I am anti-non white either?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
After all, the main authors of the refugee issue are England and France.

Ok how did England cause the refugee crisis. Seeing as England has been operating as the UK since the early 18th century.
On that matter how is it the French's fault?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-41712725/spain-fm-many-police-violence-pictures-fake

The Spanish Government is declaring that the images of police beating people were faked, and the whole thing was 'Fake News'.

The "just declare it fake" strategy. If it's good enough for the internet its good enough for the state

I am disappointed however by the remarkable lack of effort. Not even a video of someone holding up a photo with some cool red circles and explaining how it's photo-shopped? Come on Spain. You can't even put as much effort into it as the moon landing nuts and the 9/11 Truthers? Disappointing

This is not gong to help. The pictures are often not still camera but rolling footage and often by third parties. Some events might have been staged, but most likely means to do this is with rent-a-crowd.
People gathering to march under one flag or other might be bussed in, not local to make support look larger than it is. Large banners magnify a relatively small crowd easily, and estimates of crowd numbers can be guestimated up or down.
No evidence that that is happened, but already today there were multiple groups waving Catalan or Catalan and Spanish flags. This will occur and will be encouraged and seeded with slogans.

One thing I did notice the pro-union Spanish crowd do right. They waved both Catalan and Spanish flags, visibly so, and waved them together. This denies the Catalan flag as purely a seperatist symbol. During the Scottish referendum the Better Together camapign most heavily favoured the Union flag and this was a mistake as the Saltire was at least partly absorbed as a seperatist symbol. Though the press being lazy were partly to blame using the Union flag and Saltire as opposed symbols in infographics.

I'm just wondering how many tangents we're going to rope into a regional Spanish autonomy issue, and how far we're going to delve down into them.

We've got EU conspiracies and hypocrisy, Tory/Labour dynamics, Imperialism's karma, and the bleeding hearts allowing rape culture thus far on this page alone.