Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2017/10/24 22:23:09
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/25 05:58:10
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
BaronIveagh wrote: as though they assumed a 'Yes' vote was a forgone conclusion if they did not suppress it.
That's a fundamental misunderstanding of why the police was there.
Yes was always going to win because the vote was organised by the yes camp without following the legal procedure for a lawful vote (basically because they did not have enough MPs to do it). The reason the police went there to seize the ballots, etc. is because the Catalonia Supreme Court declared the law null and void.
It wasn't "the government" who sent the police there, it was Catalonia's highest court (the members of which are proposed 2/3 by the Catalan Legislative Assembly and 1/3 by the Central Judiciary Council). Any excesses should still be laid at the government feet, since security forces ultimately answer to the Central government delegate in Catalonia, but the reason they were there is due process and rule of law, not an executive decision.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah. Appearances and what kind of spin you can put on things are what matters here. Spain sent in the jack booted thugs with sticks and riot shields unnecessarily, and gave their opponents all the ammo they need to play the oppressed party.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The current unpopular Catalan parliament may or may not regard it as a democratic mandate. In fact Puigedemont and other separatists rabbit on at length about democratic mandates. But the anti-separatists who make up over half the population, and largely did not vote, will not accept it as a mandate for independence, and will fight back against it.
Ultimately a veneer of legality is irrelevant if the hearts and minds of the population are not prepared to go along.
Actually as it is we do not know how much of catalonians support independence. All we have is some polls which only sample small sections. If polls were accurate we wouldn't have brexit nor trump.
What we do know is that unless there was HUGE scams in the voting we had(not even talking 1% of votes being incorrect but more like good two digits) basically nearly every voter that didn't vote would have had to vote no to get over 50% no's.
So either the "no independency" advantage isn't as big as people think if there is at or there was gargantuan voting scamming going on.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/10/26 09:50:35
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The current unpopular Catalan parliament may or may not regard it as a democratic mandate. In fact Puigedemont and other separatists rabbit on at length about democratic mandates. But the anti-separatists who make up over half the population, and largely did not vote, will not accept it as a mandate for independence, and will fight back against it.
Ultimately a veneer of legality is irrelevant if the hearts and minds of the population are not prepared to go along.
Actually as it is we do not know how much of catalonians support independence. All we have is some polls which only sample small sections. If polls were accurate we wouldn't have brexit nor trump.
What we do know is that unless there was HUGE scams in the voting we had(not even talking 1% of votes being incorrect but more like good two digits) basically nearly every voter that didn't vote would have had to vote no to get over 50% no's.
You do have a very accurate description of the Catalan makeup just by following the regional election results.
Pro-indy parties got 47% of the valid vote, no-indy parties got 53%
And we know based on polls that not all who voted for pro-indy parties want independence. A good 20% of those voters only want extended autonomy or a new makeup of the Spanish state.
That's why pro-indy are in a rush to get everything passed right away and without following due process. Because thanks to the electoral system those 47% of the votes actually translate to over 50% of the MPs, so they are gaming the system by passing substantial reforms that need more ample majorities. That's why their laws are getting shot down all the time by the Supreme Court (including the electoral law that gave the Catalan parliament powers to call a referendum on a constitutional issue).
Automatically Appended Next Post: ....and it's done. Puigdemont has finally decided to call an early election for Dec. 20th instead of having the government using art. 155 for that.
There's a press conference called in less than 1h.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/26 10:54:17
2017/10/26 12:25:43
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah. Appearances and what kind of spin you can put on things are what matters here. Spain sent in the jack booted thugs with sticks and riot shields unnecessarily, and gave their opponents all the ammo they need to play the oppressed party.
I think there is a legitimate argument that when the advocates of a political position are being arrested or having their heads cracked by police for no adequate reason, those advocates are actually being oppressed. Quite literally in every sense of the word. It's not quite Monty Python when a bloke is physically laying into you and yours with a truncheon for standing in a street and holding your hands up.
Can you imagine if we'd done that at the SNP rallies?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/26 12:26:30
2017/10/26 12:45:00
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Scargill's political error was not to ballot his members on industrial action. If he had done so, there is not much doubt that he would have had a mandate for the strike.
By failing to do so he allowed Thatcher to send in the cops on the basis of suppressing an illegal act.
Things of course turned very nasty and the memory is still with people today, who are old enough to have lived through that period. It was a great disservice to the nation as a whole.
Similarly, Puigdemont ought to have organised a referendum in accordance with the law. This would have made interference by the police clearly repressive.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah. Appearances and what kind of spin you can put on things are what matters here. Spain sent in the jack booted thugs with sticks and riot shields unnecessarily, and gave their opponents all the ammo they need to play the oppressed party.
I think there is a legitimate argument that when the advocates of a political position are being arrested or having their heads cracked by police for no adequate reason, those advocates are actually being oppressed.
Actively preventing the police from taking something a judge has ordered seized will get you in trouble with the police anywhere.
2017/10/26 15:59:34
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah. Appearances and what kind of spin you can put on things are what matters here. Spain sent in the jack booted thugs with sticks and riot shields unnecessarily, and gave their opponents all the ammo they need to play the oppressed party.
I think there is a legitimate argument that when the advocates of a political position are being arrested or having their heads cracked by police for no adequate reason, those advocates are actually being oppressed.
Actively preventing the police from taking something a judge has ordered seized will get you in trouble with the police anywhere.
Pull the other one. In very few cases could you actually say there was 'adequate reason' for physically assaulting citizens. I've seen sufficient footages of police laying in with batons to crowds of people literally just standing there that saying they were 'obstructing the police' doesn't fly. Sure, you can argue in some cases the police felt threatened, in others that they were blocking the police's right of way, and still others were 'fake footage', but you reach a point where it becomes obvious that you're just trying to justify violence against people who have political views you disagree with.
And that's oppression. It's not really up for debate. We all know what happened. The police went in mobhanded, and committed excessive violence on its own citizenry in an unjustified and abhorrent manner. When you reach the point where you're 'victim blaming' for that sort of thing? You might want to either ethically re-examine where you really stand, or at the least own it and say 'I think the police should have the right to kick the crap out of anyone who does something the government doesn't like'.
EDIT:- I just filtered your responses through this entire thread (of which you've actually personally made up 1 1/2 pages of 12 so far), and you know what I found? Or rather, didn't find? A single example of you even mentioning the police brutality, let alone condemning it. Best I could get was one reference to 'heavyhanded' police actions.. There are endless posts about how undemocratic the Catalonian Government is, but not a single one where you've said 'Bashing people's heads in is generally a bad thing'.
I think that really says it all about your political priorities, quite frankly.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/26 18:15:21
2017/10/26 21:25:20
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Kilkrazy wrote: It reminds me of Scargill and the miners' strike.
Scargill's political error was not to ballot his members on industrial action. If he had done so, there is not much doubt that he would have had a mandate for the strike.
By failing to do so he allowed Thatcher to send in the cops on the basis of suppressing an illegal act.
Things of course turned very nasty and the memory is still with people today, who are old enough to have lived through that period. It was a great disservice to the nation as a whole.
Similarly, Puigdemont ought to have organised a referendum in accordance with the law. This would have made interference by the police clearly repressive.
The problem is that the Spanish constitution prohibits secession from Spain, there is no legal way to get a mandate for a ballot, which gives opportunity to have one anyway.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2017/10/26 21:53:50
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Similarly, Puigdemont ought to have organised a referendum in accordance with the law.
And if that were possible you might have a point. But by it's very nature any such referendum is automatically illegal. Which is why the judge ruled thus. Just a wee legal throwback to Franco.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2017/10/26 22:00:17
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Similarly, Puigdemont ought to have organised a referendum in accordance with the law.
And if that were possible you might have a point. But by it's very nature any such referendum is automatically illegal. Which is why the judge ruled thus. Just a wee legal throwback to Franco.
Spain has alot of Franco quietly left in place in the system.
Gurdia Civil was one.
Now yeah. Catalan was breaking the law whichever way they did it. Spain. Could of done it the easy way.
They did what they did now it's gonna take months.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/26 22:54:13
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah. Appearances and what kind of spin you can put on things are what matters here. Spain sent in the jack booted thugs with sticks and riot shields unnecessarily, and gave their opponents all the ammo they need to play the oppressed party.
I think there is a legitimate argument that when the advocates of a political position are being arrested or having their heads cracked by police for no adequate reason, those advocates are actually being oppressed.
Actively preventing the police from taking something a judge has ordered seized will get you in trouble with the police anywhere.
True, but its still quite bad for your image to assault a mob, even if its justified.
Its always better to wait a week or so till the mob loses interest and then quietly arrest the person.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Its always better to wait a week or so till the mob loses interest and then quietly arrest the person.
Um...personal experience, that can be a long wait, depending on how angry the mob is. I've seen that sort of thing stretch out for years, if you can get international boundaries mixed up in it.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2017/10/26 23:17:35
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah. Appearances and what kind of spin you can put on things are what matters here. Spain sent in the jack booted thugs with sticks and riot shields unnecessarily, and gave their opponents all the ammo they need to play the oppressed party.
I think there is a legitimate argument that when the advocates of a political position are being arrested or having their heads cracked by police for no adequate reason, those advocates are actually being oppressed.
Actively preventing the police from taking something a judge has ordered seized will get you in trouble with the police anywhere.
True, but its still quite bad for your image to assault a mob, even if its justified.
The 'mob' here isn't laying a finger on the police, and they're not inside a polling station or preventing the police from collecting boxes. If the police wanted to leave, I daresay that they could have pushed their way through at any point easily enough given that the edge of the ring is clearly visible (later in the video if you watch). So they're not trapped. The protestors aren't even trying to get in somewhere, they're just standing there. Yet somehow a whole row of the police decide the best course of action is to lay into people using batons.
I see no justification for actions such as these. Any self-respecting police force should be disgusted at such a lack of restraint by their officers, that when faced with a chanting group of protestors with their hands clearly up, their officer's primary resort is violence. I've seen and been in larger and louder crowds kettled at New Year's in London, and yet somehow the police there manage without laying into them with truncheons. If I got clobbered by a copper like that chap did at the start, I'd have papers filed within the week for police brutality and compensation. And I'd win. It wouldn't be acceptable or justified for a policeman to randomly walk up and smack me personally with a truncheon, it doesn't suddenly become legal and right just because there's people standing next to me and we're chanting something.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/10/26 23:27:04
2017/10/26 23:26:52
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Spanish police is all political, be it the national spanish one, the special basque or catalonian one, etc... they are dogs of the goverment.
The mossos d'esquadra where specially brutal during the 2012-2013 protests, even compared with the rest of spanish police. Thats why ,personally, I find disgusting how they play the "We protect catalonian people" when 4-5 years before they where the ones that let a woman blind of an eye with a rubber ball. They don't care about catalonians, they care about the pro-independence goverment and their orders.
In resume: The orders that were given in the 1-O where horrible, the Spanish police actions where horrible, but to be honest, it wasn't something we haven't seen in Spain every time theres protests. The "wounded-count" actually was pretty small in comparasion with protests of the past years for the economical crisis.
And I'm not saying this to justify the actions of the police, but to critizise their violence. All of those videos, Ketara? They are just the tip of the iceberg.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/26 23:30:02
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/27 05:52:39
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Similarly, Puigdemont ought to have organised a referendum in accordance with the law.
And if that were possible you might have a point. But by it's very nature any such referendum is automatically illegal. Which is why the judge ruled thus. Just a wee legal throwback to Franco.
That doesn't matter. If you're organising a referendum on independence it's pretty unlikely to be in accordance with overlord law, but that's the whole point.
The problem with Puidgemont's referendum is that it was not run in accordance with Catalan's own law, which he could easily have done but avoided because he probably wouldn't have got the votes in the Catalan parliament.
And that's oppression. It's not really up for debate. We all know what happened. The police went in mobhanded, and committed excessive violence on its own citizenry in an unjustified and abhorrent manner. When you reach the point where you're 'victim blaming' for that sort of thing? You might want to either ethically re-examine where you really stand, or at the least own it and say 'I think the police should have the right to kick the crap out of anyone who does something the government doesn't like'.
EDIT:- I just filtered your responses through this entire thread (of which you've actually personally made up 1 1/2 pages of 12 so far), and you know what I found? Or rather, didn't find? A single example of you even mentioning the police brutality, let alone condemning it. Best I could get was one reference to 'heavyhanded' police actions.. There are endless posts about how undemocratic the Catalonian Government is, but not a single one where you've said 'Bashing people's heads in is generally a bad thing'.
I think that really says it all about your political priorities, quite frankly.
I entered this thread a few days after the actual events happened, for the most part to set the record straight with regards to quite a few inaccuracies or straight-up propaganda that the foreign press swallowed hook, line and sinker. You have all the right in the world to feel outraged, horrified etc. by police beating on people, as should every person in the world that's not a psychopath. For the record you will find me calling for the resignation of the president and police chief over that, so I guess if I did a similarly cursory glance at your interventions in this thread I might think you're a dangerous anarchist with total disregard for the rule of law. I won't do that, so I hope you don't do the same.
I did have family members voting on 1-O, so I had plenty more at stake that 99% of people in the UK, which I assume is your case. So let's leave the ad hominem aspect of this whole thing aside shall we?
Your point is OMG this people are innocent bystanders being beaten and my point is those people were put there exactly to be beaten, in the latest chapter of the tug-of-war between the Catalan government and the Spanish authorities. Let's go back.
3 years back, the very same Catalan government did the same trick. Called a referendum, which was cancelled by the Constitutional court (again, a majority not large enough) but unlike earlier in this month the government (sort of) complied. Instead, a couple associations appeared out of nowhere and called a "consultative public vote" which was very prominently not organised by the Catalan government (apparently back then a Constitutional Court order still meant something).
There was no police in sight, people voted and the Catalan government proudly announced some 80% support for independence, while the central government said it was a Mickey Mouse vote which meant nothing. No one got hurt.
Of course that was not shocking enough for the Catalan government, so they said. OK, let's call an early election put all independentist parties on a single platform and make it a plebiscite on the Catalan question future. Which they lost. They won enough seats to form a majority, but didn't get even 50% of the popular vote, much less the reinforced majority needed to take on Constitutional reform.
"The declaration of indepence was tied to the plebiscite, we have lost the plebiscite so we will not declare independence"
Then came the parliamentary tactics, trying to modify the laws though less than legal means and, finally. Another try at the referendum, again cancelled by the Constitutional Court, but this time they didn't care. They called it nevertheless, and they called for the people to act as human shields for it and got exactly, precisely what they wanted.
There are legal means to call a referendum, but they don't have the numbers for it so their only recourse is to whip their people into a frenzy, create a constant state of confrontation and have everyone in the middle have to take a side. Eventually the Catalan people will demand retribution for this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/27 09:57:55
2017/10/27 10:27:38
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I entered this thread a few days after the actual events happened, for the most part to set the record straight with regards to quite a few inaccuracies
Not the hero Dakka needs, but the Hero we deserve, eh?
For the record you will find me calling for the resignation of the president and police chief over that, so I guess if I did a similarly cursory glance at your interventions in this thread I might think you're a dangerous anarchist with total disregard for the rule of law. I won't do that, so I hope you don't do the same.
That's a strange perspective given that my first five or so posts were essentially me expressing disgust at the physical violence as it happened, and pointing out that police violence is illegal and clashes with EU law. That qualifies one as a 'dangerous anarchist with a total disregard for the rule of law'? I mean, I'm quite literally expressing a desire for the police to follow the law!
So let's leave the ad hominem aspect of this whole thing aside shall we?
I haven't made a single ad hominem. I'm simply pointing out the complete omission of any kind of moral or humanitarian concerns from your (many) posts, and the way in which you're blaming those subjected to police brutality for the violence. All of this is based entirely on your post content. Not a single personal insult.
Heck, you just agreed with me and said what your real political priorities were in this thread literally a few sentences before this one. You're far more interested in 'setting the record straight' over minor legal discrepancies committed by the Catalan Government than the very real physical violence committed by the Spanish Government. That is what interests you and motivated you to post. And I find it personally concerning that someone could be so much more interested in that than the physical oppression committed by the government against the population.
I mean, it's not even the case that you'd only made a few posts relating to it compared to loads about the legalities, it was the fact you made no reference to it at all in literally one and a half pages of posts beyond blaming the people who got beaten up for it happening.
Your point is OMG this people are innocent bystanders being beaten and my point is those people were put there exactly to be beaten
Yes. And it's utterly irrelevant.
When your teenage son doesn't do as you say, you don't kick the crap out of him. When a schoolkid isn't listening, you don't slam his head into the wall. When some Nazis do a march through Brixton, you don't attack them with automatic rifles. When someone says , 'Hey, take a swipe at me and prove you're a bad person', you don't don your chainmail fist and deliver JUSTICE Judge Dredd style.
Why do we not do these things? Because doing it proves you are everything that they are saying, and worse than them. It's why physical violence is always rewarded with a longer jail sentence than verbal assault. It is generally recognised that kicking the crap out of people is ethically considerably worse than any half baked political speeches, legal maneovring, or protests.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/10/27 10:55:12
2017/10/27 11:34:57
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Similarly, Puigdemont ought to have organised a referendum in accordance with the law.
And if that were possible you might have a point. But by it's very nature any such referendum is automatically illegal. Which is why the judge ruled thus. Just a wee legal throwback to Franco.
That referendum was illegal even under their own (still-born) constitution.
2017/10/27 11:41:19
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I mean, it's not even the case that you'd only made a few posts relating to it compared to loads about the legalities, it was the fact you made no reference to it at all in literally one and a half pages of posts beyond blaming the people who got beaten up for it happening.
Let's move to the short explanation format, then.
jouso wrote: Which is what they should have done, and is the reason why the president and the chief of police should resign.
I won't spend thousands of words condemning police violence because it's fethingly obvious that police beating people is wrong. There's really no debate when everyone just agrees.
I will object that the people there didn't know what was coming to them, and that they got exactly what they were looking for (to the point they had to exaggerate and make up new evidence when the police wouldn't supply enough). Fake blood, fake broken fingers, fake allegations of sexual assault. I don't have the tiniest bit of respect for a government that puts their citizens knowingly in front of riot police to make a political point, especially as a substitute for the majority they don't have.
2017/10/27 11:46:58
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Kilkrazy wrote: To be fair, while the Spanish government overreacted, they are not a dictatorship.
We've seen equally bad (and worse!) police behaviour in various western European countries including the UK.
Oh, to be sure. It's just the victim blaming I don't get. The 'If they didn't want to have the crap kicked out of them, they shouldn't have stood near an illegal referendum' mentality. It's only one step removed from the 'She shouldn't have gone out dressed like that' approach to ethics, after all.
I'm certain that both sides are filled with scummy politicians doing scummy things, but that's the same the world over. As long as nobody's getting hurt, I don't care if the Catalan Government holds half a dozen illegal referendums, stuff the boxes with doughnuts and does hula hoop dances on pictures of the Spanish Premier. If it's against the rules for using public funds, fire them. Nobody is getting hurt at the end of the day.
It's when people start getting smacked about with truncheons and others go 'Meh, they were asking for it' that I raise an eyebrow.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/27 11:50:28
2017/10/27 13:52:00
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yeah, Catalonia declares UDI. Best of luck to them. I fully support their drive for independence.
Let's hope good sense prevails, and the whole issue can be solved peacefully at the ballot box.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2017/10/27 14:15:00
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
