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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The problem with the Catalan independists movement is that it broke the law three times:

-They broke the Spanish constitution.
-They did broke the Catalonian Constitution law to approve their modifications to make their referendum "legal"
-They did broke their own referendum laws to make the referendum and declare independence because by their own law they shouldn't have done it.

And the problem for the Spanish Government is that their heavy handed response rendered all of that a moot point. Perception is everything. The Referendum might have been illegal, but all that matters is the images and footage of voters being beaten to a pulp by Police plastered all over the media.

Whose narrative do you think is winning here? The Spanish Government's narrative of an illegal and invalid referendum?

Or the Catalan Separatist's victim narrative?

Oh yeah, I don't dispute that. The goverment has do a horrible job at handling this situation. But the only response one should expect from the ones that in the first place are responsivle for allowing this to reach this point.
But I wasn't talking about that subject, I wrote that because people where arguing about the "legality" of the referendum, that independentists movement normally don't follow any legality of the "parent" state, etc...

Galas, there is no legal avenue for a lawful democratic majority, which therefore enables one by alternate means.

This ends when the Spanish government allows a legal referendum and motivates the majority it claims it has to vote for continued union with Spain.
Or with independence.
Or with people too mentally and financially exhausted to carry on.

Pick one.

Rajoy's my way or my way is an immediate 'solution'; lasting only as long as police are deployed and then only within baton range.

 Orlanth wrote:
Galas, there is no legal avenue for a lawful democratic majority, which therefore enables one by alternate means.

This ends when the Spanish government allows a legal referendum and motivates the majority it claims it has to vote for continued union with Spain.
Or with independence.
Or with people too mentally and financially exhausted to carry on.

Pick one.

Rajoy's my way or my way is an immediate 'solution'; lasting only as long as police are deployed and then only within baton range.

Aye. There's no long tern solution to this in fear and jail cells.

Real peace and solutions come from the ballot box and the meeting table.

Actually theres ways to reform the Constitution to allow for a democratic and legal referendum. Heck, even some pro-union parties like PSOE and Podemos (The second and third bigger parties in the parlament) are pro-Constituional reform to allow for legal referendums. They are pro-union but pro-referendum.

But the independentists goverment doesn't want that. Because they don't want real independence.

I agree, Rajoy is a incompetent pig. And the use of the Police has been disproportionate and it wasn't really needed, but with the PP in charge what can one expect?

But this "The Spanish goverment needs to made a legal referendum" doesn't make any sense, the Constitution just doesn't allows that. Literally the goverment can't create a legal referendum of independence from the air (And I have said many times how I think our constitution is a fraud, but sadly I'm not in charge of the nation). As I said, theres a good amount of support for a constituional reform even inside the Spanish parlament, even before the 1-O. Independentists have never wanted that. This was from the beginning just a ploy, a smoke wall, to try to force the central goverment for fiscal privileges like the Basque have.

 Galas wrote:
Actually theres ways to reform the Constitution to allow for a democratic and legal referendum. Heck, even some pro-union parties like Podemos and PSOE (The second and third bigger parties in the parlament) are pro-Constituional reform to allow for legal referendums. They are pro-union but pro-referendum.

Ok, once Rajoy has finished blundering someone else can fix this. However doesnt the Spanish constitution enforce indivisible union under all circumstances?

 Galas wrote:

But the independentists goverment doesn't want that. Because they don't want real independence.

Can you explain this. If they didnt want to go this far but wanted merely to milk their positions why risk prison and why be too successful?



Anyway found this:

https://www.youtube.com/user/catalannewsagency

Its an English language news site from Catalonia with an undisguised pro-independence slant, a bit amateur but fit for purpose. I will be checking them daily for the forseeable future.

Now we need to find its mirror opposite. I generally find that two or more mirrored biased accounts offer better perspective than our own medias editing for balance we normally get.
Looking at the articles they produced they explin the crisis in much better detail than elsewhere.
So far the news has been
- the Catalan government did this...WTF, or
- the Spanish government did this...WTF

The above site gives detail as two why Puigdemont is doing what he is doing, it is interesting to note from yesterdays article that an invitation to hold elections was taken off the cards because hardliners wanted an immediate break from Spain, and Puigdemont himself was painted as more moderate. This news site also heralded intentions of the Catalan government ahead of time in its recent commentaries, other English language news sources made no comments that were not retroactive.
What we need to find now is a link to Rajoy's own online mouth of sauron as a counterfoil. Other than jouso.

 Orlanth wrote:

Winning what?

*points to all the rest of Ireland* You forget why England, excuse me, 'The United Kingdom', gave up on all that?



Anyone have commentary on the Catalan parliament voting 70-12 in favor of independence?



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41783289


Also, prosecutors have announced they will be charging Mr Puigdemont with 'Rebellion' and looks like our worst case scenario is right on the money

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

Winning what?

*points to all the rest of Ireland* You forget why England, excuse me, 'The United Kingdom', gave up on all that?

Sure, they wanted independence, the UK wanted Belfast, important at the time and still the most economically active part of the island, it also had the unionist majority. Home Rule was a popular motion going through UK parliaments etc since the mid 19th century. Gladstone was in favour.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Anyone have commentary on the Catalan parliament voting 70-12 in favor of independence?

Sure. Two abstentions, ten voted no, about thirty members walked out rather than vote because they were not going to win.
Some pro-union members wanted to fillibuster, but Puigdemont himself stepped forward and called an immediate ballot. It is not known if the interrupt is legal, but the pro-independence members knew time was running out to be the first to legislate - independence vote or Senate vote to dissolve Catalan parliament.
Sources, general European news BBC/Sky/Euronews with the linked site above for local details.

 Galas wrote:
The problem with the Catalan independists movement is that it broke the law three times:

-They broke the Spanish constitution.
-They did broke the Catalonian Constitution law to approve their modifications to make their referendum "legal"
-They did broke their own referendum laws to make the referendum and declare independence because by their own law they shouldn't have done it.

Again, when it comes to Declaring Independence legality is null and void as a consideration. Even Catelonia's own laws don't have to be followed for an Independence movement.

In my opinion when the Independists goverment doesn't even follow their own laws that they made À la carte breaking their Constitution (Both the spanish and catalonian) in the process, they show their own intentions and true colours.

Of course as you say, this is actually non-important. Not their followers, not anyone is really interested in that little bit of ironic incoherence. I just wanted to pointed and highlight it.

You are right that that is a genuine factor.

Police oppression is now a bigger factor.

It did not have to be this way.

Rajoy appears that he will compound these mistakes, with possibility of arrests and seizures rather than dialogue.

 Galas wrote:
In my opinion when the Independists goverment doesn't even follow their own laws that they made À la carte breaking their Constitution (Both the spanish and catalonian) in the process, they show their own intentions and true colours.

Of course as you say, this is actually non-important. Not their followers, not anyone is really interested in that little bit of ironic incoherence. I just wanted to pointed and highlight it.

Its not really ironic at all. Any type of independence movement breaks "their own laws".

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Galas wrote:
In my opinion when the Independists goverment doesn't even follow their own laws that they made À la carte breaking their Constitution (Both the spanish and catalonian) in the process, they show their own intentions and true colours.

Of course as you say, this is actually non-important. Not their followers, not anyone is really interested in that little bit of ironic incoherence. I just wanted to pointed and highlight it.

Its not really ironic at all. Any type of independence movement breaks "their own laws".

No. Generally they break the laws of the country they want to secede from.

These guys broke the laws they made specifically for this situation.

Which were not necessarily made by them but others for intent to stop them.

Franco repressed the Catalans, and after his death the constitution included a clause for the indivisible state.

There is no democratic avenue, so democracy follows its own path.

The only way to head off a popular vote is to win one yourself. Referenda are not, repeat until successful, that is also undemocratic.

The only viable way out for Spain without lasting harm is to promise a legal referendum and make sure they win it. This can easily be done. Catalonia is unequivocably pro-EU, and is part of geographical mainland Europe, the EU will assist. Let Catalans know a vote to leave leaves the EU, have EU leaders make the message and visit. They will do this, because its Spain.
The pro-union lobby will carry the vote if they have any competence to them

 Orlanth wrote:
Which were not necessarily made by them but others for intent to stop them.

No. They made a new electoral law, and a "transition law" themselves, which they haven't followed.

It's like Washington breaking the Constitution a week after it was approved.

jouso wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Which were not necessarily made by them but others for intent to stop them.

No. They made a new electoral law, and a "transition law" themselves, which they haven't followed.

It's like Washington breaking the Constitution a week after it was approved.

Could you expand on those please? 'They' doesnt explain whether you are referring to Catalonians or Madrid.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:

jouso wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Which were not necessarily made by them but others for intent to stop them.

No. They made a new electoral law, and a "transition law" themselves, which they haven't followed.

It's like Washington breaking the Constitution a week after it was approved.

Could you expand on those please? 'They' doesnt explain whether you are referring to Catalonians or Madrid.

Cheers

Andrew

The Catalan government passed a new electoral and a transition law.

They haven't followed them. But what's more, they broke Catalan law (Estatut, kind of their Constitution) in the way they passed those laws so it goes way back.

It's all very Marxist. As in Groucho Marx.

Prior (pro-Union) governments made the referendum hoops unattainable. You wont get the majorities required in any PR system except under the most unusual circumstances.

This is acceptable if the referendum to join was as stringent, it wasn't however. AFAIK there was no referendum to join.

There is no law against holding a referendum.

The results would not be effective or binding, of course, but it would have had significant moral weight if it had been conducted in accordance with the Catalan law.

Unfortunately, instead of a solemn and well-conducted poll, which would have accurately reflected public opinion, the Catalans got a fudge confected to enable the independence movement to provoke a crisis and claim a victory.

The reason for doing this is that the independence movement is not strong enough to be sure of winning a fairly conducted vote.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is no law against holding a referendum.

The results would not be effective or binding, of course, but it would have had significant moral weight if it had been conducted in accordance with the Catalan law.

Unfortunately, instead of a solemn and well-conducted poll, which would have accurately reflected public opinion, the Catalans got a fudge confected to enable the independence movement to provoke a crisis and claim a victory.

The reason for doing this is that the independence movement is not strong enough to be sure of winning a fairly conducted vote.

I don't think thats true, the poll numbers are there, which is why a boycott strategy rather than voting the referendum down was used.

The issue here is the vote in the Catalan parliament required, the incumbent government went with a majority mandate, the formal rules however required substantially more support. In a party list proportional representation system its nearly impossible to get a significant voting block large enough to block reform unless the popular vote drops critically low.
Now again stringent laws for a referendum, rather than a simple majority are acceptable if the same procedure was required to join. However the existing Catalan parliament received no such invitation, union was forced by dictat by Franco.

So we have a province with a pre-existing parliament seeking autonomy, which never had a referendum to join or accept the current constitutional arrangement, which cannot jump through the hoops to make a legal independence referendum according to Spanish law, yet a popular mandate exists.
So Spain either gives them a single binding referendum, or they make their own.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is no law against holding a referendum.

The results would not be effective or binding, of course, but it would have had significant moral weight if it had been conducted in accordance with the Catalan law.

Unfortunately, instead of a solemn and well-conducted poll, which would have accurately reflected public opinion, the Catalans got a fudge confected to enable the independence movement to provoke a crisis and claim a victory.

The reason for doing this is that the independence movement is not strong enough to be sure of winning a fairly conducted vote.

I think this is a fair assessment of the situation.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is no law against holding a referendum.

The results would not be effective or binding, of course, but it would have had significant moral weight if it had been conducted in accordance with the Catalan law.

Unfortunately, instead of a solemn and well-conducted poll, which would have accurately reflected public opinion, the Catalans got a fudge confected to enable the independence movement to provoke a crisis and claim a victory.

The reason for doing this is that the independence movement is not strong enough to be sure of winning a fairly conducted vote.

I don't think thats true, the poll numbers are there, which is why a boycott strategy rather than voting the referendum down was used.

If anything polls (conducted by the Catalan government) tell that Indy support (proper Indy, not "independent but within a Federal Spain" wishy washy stuff) sit at the mid to high 30s).

Now there's going to be a proper vote, less than 2 months from now. Let people speak.

Don't most political parties make it into power by having only a fraction of the vote? Half the voters don't show up, and then a portion of them vote for one side or the other...

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Don't most political parties make it into power by having only a fraction of the vote? Half the voters don't show up, and then a portion of them vote for one side or the other...

You cannot blame a ballot on low turnout. If people stay away and you get Brexit/Trump/Catalan independence that is what you get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jouso wrote:

Now there's going to be a proper vote, less than 2 months from now. Let people speak.

Is there?

And if the people on 21st December elect members of the Junts pel Sí, will you permit the people to speak and reignite independence.
Or is democracy only valid if it goes your way?

Well, I held a referendum seven minutes ago, and it was 100% in favour of having Italy annex Catalonia. Anyone who didn't vote obviously didn't care enough to vote, so we should just disregard them!

 Ketara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is no law against holding a referendum.

The results would not be effective or binding, of course, but it would have had significant moral weight if it had been conducted in accordance with the Catalan law.

Unfortunately, instead of a solemn and well-conducted poll, which would have accurately reflected public opinion, the Catalans got a fudge confected to enable the independence movement to provoke a crisis and claim a victory.

The reason for doing this is that the independence movement is not strong enough to be sure of winning a fairly conducted vote.

I think this is a fair assessment of the situation.

Except that the assessment is false. There IS a law against holding a referendum, the Spanish constitution prohibits them (on secession issues).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Well, I held a referendum seven minutes ago, and it was 100% in favour of having Italy annex Catalonia. Anyone who didn't vote obviously didn't care enough to vote, so we should just disregard them!

This was after the referendum removing you from the status of human being. So no humans were balloted, only walruses, which don't count......
See I can do this too, anyone can.

Back to reality please. There needs to be some form of popular mandate, but if there is, apparently odd demands can happen, and those demands can be politically realistic

If the population of Catalonia were of Italian descent and wanted union with the motherland post independence, this could happen, strange as it seems to you, and this form of politics arrises, even relatively recently. There can be consequences, such as the Enosis movement in Cyprus and subsequent Turkish invasion in 1974.

That was my entire point: anyone can make a referendum, but there needs to be some way of determining whether it is legitimate or not. The Catalan referendum didn't even follow the rules they had set up themselves.

 Orlanth wrote:


Except that the assessment is false. There IS a law against holding a referendum, the Spanish constitution prohibits them (on secession issues).

No it doesn't. It prevents them from seceding. Not from having a referendum on whether they think they should. You can hold a non-binding referendum on anything. Holding a referendum on it peacefully in line with existing Catalan law , stressing the non-binding nature, and then presenting it to the Spanish Parliament as a way of pressuring for an alteration of the Constitution would have been entirely legitimate.

As pointed out earlier by many people though, the Catalan Government know that they would quite possibly have lost such a referendum undertaken in that manner.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is no law against holding a referendum.

The results would not be effective or binding, of course, but it would have had significant moral weight if it had been conducted in accordance with the Catalan law.

Unfortunately, instead of a solemn and well-conducted poll, which would have accurately reflected public opinion, the Catalans got a fudge confected to enable the independence movement to provoke a crisis and claim a victory.

The reason for doing this is that the independence movement is not strong enough to be sure of winning a fairly conducted vote.

I think this is a fair assessment of the situation.

Except that the assessment is false. There IS a law against holding a referendum, the Spanish constitution prohibits them (on secession issues).

 Ketara wrote:
No it doesn't. It prevents them from seceding. Not from having a referendum on whether they think they should. r.

They've had quite a few of those non binding ones, most of which the answer was 'yes' (80% yes in 2014). Carles Puigdemont actually ran for office on the platform of finally having a binding vote on the issue. (Bizarre, a politician carrying out an election promise!)

I mean, hell, Franco made no bones about punishing the Catalans for supporting the Republic of Spain in the Spanish Civil War. This is just another remnant of that. Instead of addressing the issue of continued Fascist influences in Spain, they'd rather repeat everyone else's mistakes until it comes to violence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


That is why the result is very flawed.

Funny, the outcome was right in line with the last four non-binding votes on the issue, so I may suggest that this is actually how the public feels on this.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There is no law against holding a referendum.

The results would not be effective or binding, of course, but it would have had significant moral weight if it had been conducted in accordance with the Catalan law.

Unfortunately, instead of a solemn and well-conducted poll, which would have accurately reflected public opinion, the Catalans got a fudge confected to enable the independence movement to provoke a crisis and claim a victory.

The reason for doing this is that the independence movement is not strong enough to be sure of winning a fairly conducted vote.

So we have a province with a pre-existing parliament seeking autonomy, which never had a referendum to join or accept the current constitutional arrangement

Actually, all of Spain voted in a referendum to approve our constitution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referendum,_1978
In Catalonia, it has a turnout of 69% and a YES of 95,15%.
Basque Country in the other hand, had a turnount of 45%, a YES of 75% and a NO of 25% (By the constitutional referendum LAW, if any region had a turnount of less than 55%, it shouldn't be have been approved, but... Spanish politicians, you know)
After Basque Country, Galicia was the second with the lowest turnount, 50%, but a YES of 94%.

The rest of the provinces all had a turnount higher than 60%

 BaronIveagh wrote:



I mean, hell, Franco made no bones about punishing the Catalans for supporting the Republic of Spain in the Spanish Civil War. This is just another remnant of that. Instead of addressing the issue of continued Fascist influences in Spain, they'd rather repeat everyone else's mistakes until it comes to violence.

This is just wrong. Catalonia was LITERALLY the province that during Franquism received more money. Literally, whole industries where moved from other provinces to Catalonia under Franco orders. Catalonia had one of the highest rates of approval of the Franco dictatorship of all of Spain.

I'll say something that for many people will be hard to believe: If Franco stayed in "office" for 39 years was because... people liked him. Yes, really. The population liked him, or maybe, not so liking him as fearing the alternatives, Franco was good enough. You can explain why: The Second Republic period was a very insecure period, full of violence, murder, etc... and Franco did a good job of indoctrination, and in relation with the period before him, it was a "peacefull" time. The Cold War propaganda agaisn't the "Marxists", with Franco has a "Parangon of the West" that other countries pushed didn't helped to make him less appealing to the population.
But that was the reality. Spanish people liked Franco and his Dictatorship. (Of course, not ALL of them).

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


That is why the result is very flawed.

Funny, the outcome was right in line with the last four non-binding votes on the issue, so I may suggest that this is actually how the public feels on this.

The mayority of those non-binding votes where deslegitimated by the Central Goverment. They didn't followed a "If you want to remain in Spain, go and vote "no"". They ran the "Thats a poll made by seccecionists, don't vote in it" rethoric.
The real one was the autonomic election of the goverment, that was run with the "Vote us if you don't want to leave spain" rethoric, where 53% of the people voted for non independists options.
This is the one you mentioned, the 2014 one. It was declared unconstitutional, so they ran an alternative one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014
It had a participation of 37%. In my opinion, the "Don't vote, this is a vote made by seccecionists" was a very bad strategy, they should have run a strong "Go and vote that you want to remain in Spain" one.But as I said in other posts, sadly I'm no President