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2017/11/04 17:21:37
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
And they still only have a majority because of the way the electoral system works, if I've understood it correctly. In other words, parties who got fewer votes than their opposition are taking actions that they aren't legally allowed to do and going against the will of the majority in doing so, all the while complaining about oppression and tyrrany.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
0023/02/04 17:46:42
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And they still only have a majority because of the way the electoral system works, if I've understood it correctly. In other words, parties who got fewer votes than their opposition are taking actions that they aren't legally allowed to do and going against the will of the majority in doing so, all the while complaining about oppression and tyrrany.
70 to 65 in favor of Independence at the last parliament vote (70 for, 2 abstentions, 13 against and the rest walked out rather than vote). That's not a minority no matter how you cut it.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2017/11/04 18:55:18
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And they still only have a majority because of the way the electoral system works, if I've understood it correctly. In other words, parties who got fewer votes than their opposition are taking actions that they aren't legally allowed to do and going against the will of the majority in doing so, all the while complaining about oppression and tyrrany.
70 to 65 in favor of Independence at the last parliament vote (70 for, 2 abstentions, 13 against and the rest walked out rather than vote). That's not a minority no matter how you cut it.
You mean aside from the fact that the parliament's composition is stacked in favour of the more rural areas and penalizes barcelona's metropolitan area, which is where the main pro-union's strongholds are, and thus skews the result?
2017/11/04 20:33:28
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
They can say whatever they want. Back in the 78 the current Spanish Constitution was voted with an overwhelming yes by Catalans.
And as long as them means >50% of the electorate (they don't) they don't even have the recourse of "the people is with us". Indy supporters still need to prove they can get a substantial majority behind then.
Then there's the issue of whether a 50%+1 is enough for such a sweeping change, but first things first.
Kilkrazy wrote: What is the difference between rebellion and sedition?
Printing a pamphlet decrying the injustices of the ruling party and encouraging people to resist is sedition. Leading an armed group to seize a military installation is rebellion.
Missed this. You need to do substantially more than a pamphlet to be charged with sedition. The Spanish penal code is clear.
TÍTULO XXII
Delitos contra el orden público
CAPÍTULO PRIMERO
Sedición
Artículo 544
Son reos de sedición los que, sin estar comprendidos en el delito de rebelión, se alcen pública y tumultuariamente para impedir, por la fuerza o fuera de las vías legales, la aplicación de las Leyes o a cualquier autoridad, corporación oficial o funcionario público, el legítimo ejercicio de sus funciones o el cumplimiento de sus acuerdos, o de las resoluciones administrativas o judiciales.
Did they publicly raise a mob? Yes. Did it prevent public servants from complying with a court order? Yes. Textbook sedition, made worse because they were members of the government.
Sedition doesn't necessarily mean the same in different penal codes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/04 21:10:41
2017/11/05 02:25:09
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
They can say whatever they want. Back in the 78 the current Spanish Constitution was voted with an overwhelming yes by Catalans.
And as long as them means >50% of the electorate (they don't) they don't even have the recourse of "the people is with us". Indy supporters still need to prove they can get a substantial majority behind then.
Then there's the issue of whether a 50%+1 is enough for such a sweeping change, but first things first.
And if the Spanish Constitution was what we were talking about, you might have a point there. But since the object in question was actually the Catalan Statute, this is irrelevant. Interesting, and I can see why they voted for it, but things have clearly changed.
Further, as is so commonly said in the US, those that do not vote have no say. The people who bothered to vote voted overwhelmingly in favor of the Separatists.
Missed this. You need to do substantially more than a pamphlet to be charged with sedition. The Spanish penal code is clear.
And if the Spanish Penal code was what we were talking about, again, you might have a point. My understanding of his question was a more general 'what is the difference between these two things. Sedition is a crime of thought, generally, whereas Rebellion is usually a more violent act.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2017/11/05 08:38:22
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The tyranny of the minority is the ultimate failure of democracy.
If there is a genuine pro-union majority in Catalonia, the "referendum" is meaningless, since they considered it illegitimate, ignored it, and of course will disregard the illegitimate (to them) form of independent Catalan government formed upon it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/05 08:49:39
And if the Spanish Constitution was what we were talking about, you might have a point there. But since the object in question was actually the Catalan Statute, this is irrelevant. Interesting, and I can see why they voted for it, but things have clearly changed.
They may have, but the Catalans subjected themselves to the Spanish Constitution when they voted for it. Several notable Catalan politicians were involved in the making of it.
Look at the changes that were introduced by the Constitutional court. By reading some it would look like it was a full repeal when actually they're mostly cosmetic.
Further, as is so commonly said in the US, those that do not vote have no say. The people who bothered to vote voted overwhelmingly in favor of the Separatists.
Leaving aside the fact that the vote was illegal, so most people just refused to play.
Do you mean this guy had four says? (voting four times at four locations) Google a bit and you'll find videos and even a how-to.
And if the Spanish Penal code was what we were talking about, again, you might have a point. My understanding of his question was a more general 'what is the difference between these two things. Sedition is a crime of thought, generally, whereas Rebellion is usually a more violent act.
The Spanish penal code is very much central to this thread. It takes much more than printing pamphlets to get you charged with sedition in Spain. Any other countries penal code definition of sedition is irrelevant.
Sedition in Spain is not a crime of thought, it's a very public action, and it is dishonest to talk about sedition in this context if you use a definition taken from somewhere else.
2017/11/05 11:16:38
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
And if the Spanish Penal code was what we were talking about, again, you might have a point. My understanding of his question was a more general 'what is the difference between these two things. Sedition is a crime of thought, generally, whereas Rebellion is usually a more violent act.
And what in blazes are we about if it isn't the spanish penal code? Newsflash: it's a spanish judge who's ordered them arrested upon crimes of sedition, not a murican one so your penal code doesn't apply here. Sedition is a crime of deed/act as long as this case is concerned.
2017/11/05 15:20:41
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
But I forgot, these lawbreakers belong to an indy movement and are politicians, in the eyes of certain posters they could be ordering the killing of people on the streets (because these people never get their hands dirty with blood) and they would still be innocent victims.
M.
A grossly unfair comment, there is no evidence to suggest that if the pro-independence Catalans encouraged or orchestrated violence that anyone here would support that.
There have been several people critical of the Spanish government who have noted that the pro-independence movement has operated peacably.
Here you are, some peace for you! I started the video at the peaceful moments just for you. And that video also answers one of your questions. why the so called "Jordis" are in preventive prison? For arranging and coordinating that mob that happily destroyed three police cars while besieging the agents for almost a full day. Riot police are not usually the more diplomatic of the lot, but something that never fails to set them off is to throw stones at them, try to kick a mate on the head, charge against the police lines... all those things that the videos decrying police brutality never bothered to show, lest they give viewers a chance to think that police brutality might not have been unprovoked.
Also if Catalonians were receiving a dose of Francoism, currently the Spanish government would be encouraging Ford to move their car factory from Valencia to Barcelona like his government did with SEAT, building new highways to connect with France were the rest of the country had to do with barely decent roads, rewarding books written in Catalan (https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2014/03/cuando-franco-premiaba-libros-en-catalan/ ) and in general pampering Catalonia and Barcelona over other regions of Spain... oooops sorry I might be going against the official line that Catalonians are the most repressed peoples in Spain since the times of Julius Caesar, disregard all the facts and keep feeling.
M.
Nice victim blaming there.
2017/11/05 21:30:46
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
And what in blazes are we about if it isn't the spanish penal code? Newsflash: it's a spanish judge who's ordered them arrested upon crimes of sedition, not a murican one so your penal code doesn't apply here. Sedition is a crime of deed/act as long as this case is concerned.
I'm not an American (believe me I've requested that be fixed several times and the mods give less than a flying rat gak) and the Penal code here basically lacks 'Sedition' as a crime entirely. 'We' aren't on about anything. He went back, did not bother to read the preceding post, made assumptions, and then posted as if they were true. Rather like your assumption about me being an American, due to not bothering to read my 'location'.
So please do not insult me by calling me an American.
The Spanish penal code is very much central to this thread. It takes much more than printing pamphlets to get you charged with sedition in Spain. Any other countries penal code definition of sedition is irrelevant.
Sedition in Spain is not a crime of thought, it's a very public action, and it is dishonest to talk about sedition in this context if you use a definition taken from somewhere else.
It seemed a passing question not specific to Spanish law, and so I gave two general answers of things that might be considered one or the other.. I could have used and older answer like 'One you're hanged, one you're drawn and quartered'. But, generally speaking, world wide, my answer was broadly correct. But you seem to want to attack me personally by taking things out of Context.
Do you mean this guy had four says? (voting four times at four locations) Google a bit and you'll find videos and even a how-to.
Spain's entire election system had a rate of fraud over 30% when the Constitution was ratified, if you bother to Google a bit. So the idea that one guy voted four times is hardly news.
Your link to El Correo tells me that this thread is going into the RU on Crimea part of the Ukraine thread.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/11/05 21:55:08
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2017/11/05 23:51:12
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
And what in blazes are we about if it isn't the spanish penal code? Newsflash: it's a spanish judge who's ordered them arrested upon crimes of sedition, not a murican one so your penal code doesn't apply here. Sedition is a crime of deed/act as long as this case is concerned.
I'm not an American (believe me I've requested that be fixed several times and the mods give less than a flying rat gak) and the Penal code here basically lacks 'Sedition' as a crime entirely. 'We' aren't on about anything. He went back, did not bother to read the preceding post, made assumptions, and then posted as if they were true. Rather like your assumption about me being an American, due to not bothering to read my 'location'.
So please do not insult me by calling me an American.
Just as an aside, the flag is based on your Internet Provider, so there probably isn't anything the Mods can do.
2017/11/06 00:20:02
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: In fact, I'd go as far as to say that even if Catalonia becomes independent following the vote in December they should STILL try him for sedition, because he's guilty as sin. The man's essentially performed a coup d'état by seizing powers he had no right to in declaring Catalonia independent. If Catalonia wishes to be independent then so be it, but Puigdemont clearly has no respect for the democratic process and, as such, must go.
No danger of that. They aren't voting for independence but parliament. They will never be given independence willingly. Even if 100% of catalians vote for independence in elections rigged by Spain they wouldn't give independence quoting Spain's constitution. Nobody expects December elections be about independence. It isn't, never been suggested it would be and Spain never is going to give willingly independence. Only way Catalonia CAN be independent is by either massing enough foreign support Spain has no choice but to yield or beat the crap out of Spain in civil war. Good luck with either one because they are going to need it either way.
Has history ever seen independence that actually was legal? They always are illegal by definition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 08:29:21
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/11/06 08:55:28
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The Spanish penal code is very much central to this thread. It takes much more than printing pamphlets to get you charged with sedition in Spain. Any other countries penal code definition of sedition is irrelevant.
Sedition in Spain is not a crime of thought, it's a very public action, and it is dishonest to talk about sedition in this context if you use a definition taken from somewhere else.
It seemed a passing question not specific to Spanish law, and so I gave two general answers of things that might be considered one or the other.. I could have used and older answer like 'One you're hanged, one you're drawn and quartered'. But, generally speaking, world wide, my answer was broadly correct. But you seem to want to attack me personally by taking things out of Context.
Ehm no, you took a question out of context. Kilkrazy was asking DINLT about the charges leveled against certain politicians,so it was very much in the context of the Spanish penal code (which also happens to be the main focus of the whole thread).
What would be the equivalent offence in British penal code, btw? Perverting the course of justice sounds the closest to me.
Do you mean this guy had four says? (voting four times at four locations) Google a bit and you'll find videos and even a how-to.
Spain's entire election system had a rate of fraud over 30% when the Constitution was ratified, if you bother to Google a bit. So the idea that one guy voted four times is hardly news.
Honest question. Do you speak any Spanish? Because that's not what the quote you provided says.
The 78 referendum changed the age of vote at the 11th hour, from 21 to 18 this meant a substantial number of people could not vote. Up to 30% in Ourense province, which is one of the least populated provinces in Spain (less than 1% of population).
But given that the youngest voters overwhelmingly voted yes, it only served to skew the results towards lowering the participation.
And yes the Belgian judge let them go but they're forbidden from leaving Belgium and have their addresses listed. The hearing is due in 15 days tops.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/06 09:28:50
2017/11/06 10:10:29
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yeah... and that article mentions NOWHERE the 30% mark country-wide fraud. But for some province and it was more due to how much of a mess the censal data (and it included missing votes), due to how much of a mess the voting was due to incorporating a new segment of demographic, was than actual and honest to god fraud.
Way to go!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/06 10:24:46
2017/11/06 11:03:35
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: In fact, I'd go as far as to say that even if Catalonia becomes independent following the vote in December they should STILL try him for sedition, because he's guilty as sin. The man's essentially performed a coup d'état by seizing powers he had no right to in declaring Catalonia independent. If Catalonia wishes to be independent then so be it, but Puigdemont clearly has no respect for the democratic process and, as such, must go.
No danger of that. They aren't voting for independence but parliament. They will never be given independence willingly. Even if 100% of catalians vote for independence in elections rigged by Spain they wouldn't give independence quoting Spain's constitution. Nobody expects December elections be about independence. It isn't, never been suggested it would be and Spain never is going to give willingly independence. Only way Catalonia CAN be independent is by either massing enough foreign support Spain has no choice but to yield or beat the crap out of Spain in civil war. Good luck with either one because they are going to need it either way.
Has history ever seen independence that actually was legal? They always are illegal by definition.
Sweden-Norway was split into Sweden and Norway in 1905 after the Swedish Parliament agreed to the Norwegians request for independence.
I should have been clearer on the December election though: I didn't mean that they'd immediately become independent, I meant that the result of the election could lead to them continuing to strive for independence and obtaining it in the future. If that is the case, and if the election isn't tampered with, I don't mind Catalonia becoming independent at all. I do mind it when people try to force independence down people's throats by making up their own rules as they go, just as I mind police brutality and incompetence in general from the Spanish government.
EDIT: Having read this article I realise I've been arguing my point a bit sloppily. The relevant interview with Prof. Marti is below for the work-blocked.
I've been focussing on the fact that the Catalan parliament didn't follow their own laws in order to point out that they haven't demonstrated the legitimacy of their referendum. If they truly had a majority in support they wouldn't have had to resort to forcing legally suspect legislation through parliament in order to make the vote binding in case of a yes. It's the tactics by someone who knows they don't have the support but are going to go ahead anyway, democracy be damned.
Which, of course, is why Madrid's jack-boot response is extra dumb. They're running a very real risk of giving legitimacy to a movement that doesn't really have it, or at least haven't demonstrated that it does.
Spoiler:
Well, I’m not an international lawyer, but what I can say about the specific international legal argument is that most international lawyers – almost all of them, in fact – would say that the right of self-determination doesn’t apply to cases like Catalonia. The right to self-determination was born and evolved basically to be applied to former colonies, and that’s not the case with Catalonia…
Having said this, I think that many Catalan secessionists – probably most of them, and particularly the government of Catalonia – are not trying to say that their moves are legal. They certainly concede that they’re not legal according to the Spanish constitution and legal system. So, they accept that these moves are illegal. But, the thing is, we’re at a point now – and this week in particular – we are at a point in which legality is probably not the most important thing.
So, the independence movement is aware that they are launching a sort of rebellion. They are aware of that. They don’t try to masquerade or try to deceive the people about this. They are launching a rebellion, and the most important thing about rebellions is not whether they are legal because, by definition, they are not. The most important thing is whether this rebellion is legitimate.
My personal view was that up to last week, it was not legitimate. To begin with, because we didn’t know whether there was a majority of Catalans who gave support to this rebellion… Actually, all the data we had until last week is that there is no such majority, and if there is not, then the rebellion, I would say, is not legitimate.
I would go even further. I would say that to justify and legitimise a rebellion you need more than just 50 + 1% of the people. You need a vast majority of people wanting it. And all the data we had is that there was no such majority. So, again, up until last week I think that the rebellion was neither legal nor legitimate. However, things might be changing now, because on Sunday, as you may know, the police were very harsh in beating the people who were peacefully turning out and queuing to cast their votes, etc. Things are moving very quickly this week.
I think now, today on 3 October, there is a majority – a vast majority – of Catalans who feel disgust and are very angry about what happened on Sunday. They felt that it was a humiliation, that it was an unjustified act of violence, and so things might rapidly change. Who knows? Maybe the secessionist movement is gaining popular support and therefore is gaining also democratic legitimacy. So, I think we should evaluate what is happening now not in terms of the legality of the issue, because even the secessionists are not trying very hard to make this argument about international law, and they concede that it is totally unconstitutional and illegal according to Spanish law. But that’s not the question. The question is whether this is legitimate. And rebellion and revolution may be legitimate, even if it is happening in a democratic state.
So, I don’t think – as many others might think – that rebellions are totally unjustified when you have a democratic system in front of you. I think they might be justified, but what they require is vast popular support. So far, I haven’t seen this popular support obtained in Catalonia. Things might be changing very quickly, and we’ll see what happens at the end of this week. I think we will see many developments over the next couple of days.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 11:23:45
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2017/11/06 11:35:34
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Well, I'm glad a judge in Belgium saw sense and made the right decision.
They were never going to get a fair trial from a corrupt, Francoist judge.
And another issue, for all this talk of referendums and self-determination, can I point out to people that in my life time, I have seen a lot of former Soviet States become sovereign nations, without so much as a single referendum vote being cast or a UDI being issued.
Often, the law is what the general consensus of the family of nations says it is.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2017/11/06 11:57:10
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
jouso wrote: What would be the equivalent offence in British penal code, btw? Perverting the course of justice sounds the closest to me.
Perverting the Course of Justice is defined as follows:
Fabricating or disposing of evidence
Intimidating or threatening a witness or juror
Intimidating or threatening a judge
And carries a sentence of up to life in prison.
The UK abolished Sedition as a crime in 2009. Previous to that, the general interpretation of sedition was, as taken from James Fitzjames Stephan's Digest of Criminal Law
" …a seditious intention is an intention to bring into hatred or contempt, or to exite disaffection against the person of His Majesty, his heirs or successors, or the government and constitution of the United Kingdom, as by law established, or either House of Parliament, or the administration of justice, or to excite His Majesty's subjects to attempt otherwise than by lawful means, the alteration of any matter in Church or State by law established, or to incite any person to commit any crime in disturbance of the peace, or to raise discontent or disaffection amongst His Majesty's subjects, or to promote feelings of ill-will and hostility between different classes of such subjects.
An intention to show that His Majesty has been misled or mistaken in his measures, or to point out errors or defects in the government or constitution as by law established, with a view to their reformation, or to excite His Majesty's subjects to attempt by lawful means the alteration of any matter in Church or State by law established, or to point out, in order to secure their removal, matters which are producing, or have a tendency to produce, feelings of hatred and ill-will between classes of His Majesty's subjects, is not a seditious intention."
A broadly similar definition was used in two American laws (quickly shot down) attempting to institute the same sort of law.
The US does not currently have a Sedition law on the books, but they do have the similar Seditious conspiracy law as US Code 2384:
"If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."
More generally though people who do this are charged with Treason.
Singapore defines it as "encouraging the violent overthrow of democratic institutions".
German law has a similar legal concept called 'Volksverhetzung' (roughly 'incitement of the people') which can be applied to a wide variety of 'rabble rousing' and carries a three month to five year sentence.
Spain however, has this:
"Conviction for sedition shall befall those who, without being included in the felony of rebellion, public and tumultuously rise up to prevent, by force or outside the legal channels, application of the laws, or any authority, official corporation
or public officer from lawful exercise of the duties thereof or implementation of the resolutions thereof, or of administrative or judicial resolutions."
" Those who have induced, sustained or directed the sedition or who appear as the main doers thereof, shall be punished with a sentence of imprisonment from eight to ten years, and with that ten to fifteen years if they are persons with the status of an authority. In both cases, absolute barring for the same term shall also be imposed.
Apart from those cases, a punishment from four to eight years imprisonment and of special barring from public employment and office for a term from four to eight years shall be imposed."
Theoretically, any protest, any speaking out against the government or it's laws or actions, can be construed as 'sedition' under this, so long as it somehow inconveniences a mailman or Clerc on his way to work.
In most English and German speaking countries, Sedition is a crime where one tries to incite hate or violence in others, generally via spreading libel though that's not a requirement all the time, in Spain it's the crime of political dissent, and you're guilty of it whether what you said is true or not.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2017/11/06 12:13:34
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
They were never going to get a fair trial from a corrupt, Francoist judge.
And another issue, for all this talk of referendums and self-determination, can I point out to people that in my life time, I have seen a lot of former Soviet States become sovereign nations, without so much as a single referendum vote being cast or a UDI being issued.
Often, the law is what the general consensus of the family of nations says it is.
Do you have any proof of your allegations of corruption or are you just using buzzwords and empty rhetoric?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2017/11/06 12:32:42
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
They were never going to get a fair trial from a corrupt, Francoist judge.
And another issue, for all this talk of referendums and self-determination, can I point out to people that in my life time, I have seen a lot of former Soviet States become sovereign nations, without so much as a single referendum vote being cast or a UDI being issued.
Often, the law is what the general consensus of the family of nations says it is.
Do you have any proof of your allegations of corruption or are you just using buzzwords and empty rhetoric?
'
He's DINLT. What you expect?
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/11/06 12:45:15
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
In most English and German speaking countries, Sedition is a crime where one tries to incite hate or violence in others, generally via spreading libel though that's not a requirement all the time, in Spain it's the crime of political dissent, and you're guilty of it whether what you said is true or not.
It's not. You've been shown proof on how sedition targets specific actions by specific individuals.
This was a few years back, a very similar situation with the Basque people, with the added threat that ETA was still active. No one was charged with anything, because everything was done according to the law n both sides (including a final ECHR ruling n favour of Spain). It is interesting that the Basque nationalists tried to mediate between the Central and Catalan government and ended up disparaging Puigdemont as a man without word.
As much as you want to depict Spain as some sort of repressive state, it is according to the economist democracy index one of only 19 full democracies worldwide. Just a hair below the UK but above the US, France, Italy, Japan.... or indeed Belgium.
They were never going to get a fair trial from a corrupt, Francoist judge.
And another issue, for all this talk of referendums and self-determination, can I point out to people that in my life time, I have seen a lot of former Soviet States become sovereign nations, without so much as a single referendum vote being cast or a UDI being issued.
Often, the law is what the general consensus of the family of nations says it is.
Do you have any proof of your allegations of corruption or are you just using buzzwords and empty rhetoric?
Proof? Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of the Spanish government these past few days speak for themselves.
But of course, the Spanish judiciary is completely neutral in this situation and is not politically motivated. No, no, no, no no, not at all.
They were never going to get a fair trial from a corrupt, Francoist judge.
And another issue, for all this talk of referendums and self-determination, can I point out to people that in my life time, I have seen a lot of former Soviet States become sovereign nations, without so much as a single referendum vote being cast or a UDI being issued.
Often, the law is what the general consensus of the family of nations says it is.
Do you have any proof of your allegations of corruption or are you just using buzzwords and empty rhetoric?
'
He's DINLT. What you expect?
Madrid has reneged on promises made to Catalonia these past few days. See my post above or on a previous page. They have links in them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/06 13:32:06
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2017/11/06 13:49:33
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
The Puigdemont and friends actually did take apparently seditious actions against the nation of Spain -- e.g. declare independence.
It seems to me that it would be a politically influenced act for the criminal law system not to arrest them. There are also the charges of embezzlement.
Whether it is a good move will be discovered over the next couple of months.
Kilkrazy wrote: The Puigdemont and friends actually did take apparently seditious actions against the nation of Spain -- e.g. declare independence.
It seems to me that it would be a politically influenced act for the criminal law system not to arrest them. There are also the charges of embezzlement.
Whether it is a good move will be discovered over the next couple of months.
By the letter of the law, it is sedition and/or rebellion. I've never denied that.
It's the morality argument that I'm supporting here Vs legality.
I won't repeat my earlier post about Warsaw Uprising, American revolution, Stalin's purges etc etc because I think I've made my point.
What is legal is not always moral.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2017/11/06 15:08:48
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Is it moral to declare unilateral independence against the wishes of +60% of your citizens?
If the choice is between legal and immoral & illegal and immoral I'll take the former.
If you don't vote, you don't get an opinion. So the 60% who didn't turn up get no opinion on the matter.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.