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I meant the Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet hits on 3+, sorry for the confusion. I was just making a case for using the Paragon Gauntlet + AGC over the Endless Fury + TSG combo.
I can see either relic being good depending on if you need shot volume or anti-tank.
Concerning Gallant, I think the problem with Gallant is that he has only one use: a blunt instrument designed to deal as much damage as possible before exploding.
In contrast, Warden and Crusader can do a lot of different things. Shooting, counter-charging, fighting, etc.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I like the Raven Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet and a Stormspear a lot, giving it Landstrider to advance it up turn 1 and using Full Tilt to charge.
This is a trap. For one you can't rely on getting T1 charge _unless enemy allows it_. And if that happens what you think he allows you to? Chaff. You get yourself isolated amidst enemy army.
LexOdin9 wrote: I think there's an argument to be made on using specialists rather than jack of all trade units.
I suppose it depends on your goals with the Knight. I personally don't think that things that cost 400+ points should be specialized. Rather, having versatility is important. One game plan could be to use the Knight to defend my artillery as it pounds the enemy. Another could be to use the rest of my army to remove threats to my Knight; once that is done, it can essentially operate unopposed.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: I like the Raven Gallant with the Paragon Gauntlet and a Stormspear a lot, giving it Landstrider to advance it up turn 1 and using Full Tilt to charge.
This is a trap. For one you can't rely on getting T1 charge _unless enemy allows it_. And if that happens what you think he allows you to? Chaff. You get yourself isolated amidst enemy army.
Yeah. Infantry sufficiently positioned forward of the gunline can stop a Knight from getting the T1 charge because we can only walk over them while FALLING BACK.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 06:17:23
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. Infantry sufficiently positioned forward of the gunline can stop a Knight from getting the T1 charge because we can only walk over them while FALLING BACK.
And simply setting further back. 12"+6 advance"(land strider)+9"(landstrider charge)=27" so 28" average threat range. Deploying behind half line of DZ you are over 30" away. And that's assuming enemy put target you want to charge straight ahead and not diagonically(knights being small in numbers he can protect his key units to deploy later most likely) so...
And even if you succeed you are suddenly totally unsupported with enemy army around you...Say hello to rapid fire plasma's, melta's with melta bonus, counter charges etc
These are all great points. If I was going to run a Gallant, it would at least be supported by 4 infiltrating Dragoons and I'd have Kastelan Robots and Helverins to clear any screens but it's far from a guarantee that it'll work out the way I hope it would even with that. At least with a Warden with Ion Bulwark it'll be durable enough to live to charge whatever it wants turn 2 while contributing some meaningful shooting and by then the screen should be cleared.
Turns out Raven stratagem only works for shooting phase and not any phase it is used in. And Legendary Hero works each round, not each battle. Freeblades also work if you are battle-forged, not necessarily in a Lance.
So the frontrunners in my opinion have changed:
Raven Crusader with Avenger+TC+Stormspear, Ion Bulwark, and Endless Fury; you can also take RFBC if you have the points
Freeblade Warden with Avenger+Gauntlet+Stormspear, Legendary Hero (let's us reroll DAMAGE?!), Weary Machine Spirit+Haunted by Failure, Ion Bulwark, and Endless Fury or Paragon
Taranis Gallant with Reaper+Gauntlet, Landstrider, Sacred Ion
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 18:44:59
Degradation is more an issue with shooting knights that aren't valiants/acherons. Gallants degrade to hitting on 4+s, which isn't that bad. I think a solo gallant should be TERRYN but if you are going hardcore gallant spam then KRAST is the way to go. KRAST gives you full rerolls in combat which drastically mitigates degredation (even moreso than HAWKSHROUD). The rerolls make deathgrip even more useful. Further, a KRAST crusader is a savage anti tank platform with the +1/+2 damage relic.
EDIT: I think the solo KRAST crusader is being undervalued here. Straight up +damage against big targets is super strong. And if you can swing 2 armigers then the crusader and armigers reroll all their swings in combat.
My admech list would be particularly vulnerable to any kind of hardcore melee knight list. Slamcaptains are scary versus knights, but IMPERIALIS knights can swing in death and trade themselves versus slam captains. Dakkabots can kill a knight in a salvo, but the knights will be on top of you soon after. And a pure admech list ... just lol. Wow. Awful. A knight list can just run through the whole admech codex and stomp it to death. Sure, dragoons are modestly scary versus knights. But a melee knight will full kill a dragoon stack when it swings. Neutrons are scary, but knights have 4++ versus ranged now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/08 22:44:31
Wulfey wrote: Degradation is more an issue with shooting knights that aren't valiants/acherons. Gallants degrade to hitting on 4+s, which isn't that bad. I think a solo gallant should be TERRYN but if you are going hardcore gallant spam then KRAST is the way to go. KRAST gives you full rerolls in combat which drastically mitigates degredation (even moreso than HAWKSHROUD). The rerolls make deathgrip even more useful. Further, a KRAST crusader is a savage anti tank platform with the +1/+2 damage relic.
EDIT: I think the solo KRAST crusader is being undervalued here. Straight up +damage against big targets is super strong. And if you can swing 2 armigers then the crusader and armigers reroll all their swings in combat.
My admech list would be particularly vulnerable to any kind of hardcore melee knight list. Slamcaptains are scary versus knights, but IMPERIALIS knights can swing in death and trade themselves versus slam captains. Dakkabots can kill a knight in a salvo, but the knights will be on top of you soon after. And a pure admech list ... just lol. Wow. Awful. A knight list can just run through the whole admech codex and stomp it to death. Sure, dragoons are modestly scary versus knights. But a melee knight will full kill a dragoon stack when it swings. Neutrons are scary, but knights have 4++ versus ranged now.
Down a knight in a Salvo? Like one round of shooting? Maybe if you're running seven or eight and have Cawl and Wrath of Mars on six of them, but if we're going that far I'm guessing the Knight player is going to be using Rotate Ion Shields and Blessing of the Machine God. Sorry statements like that really irk me, over the top, not constructive, bombastic, unless you meant something else in which case I apologize.
And considering four measly Dragoons with Conqeror active can reliably knock off 10-12 wounds is nothing to stuff your nose at, and if they have +1 Str from Canticles it jumps to 14-16. Also Dunecrawlers are still fine, and hilariously Vanguard because of the way the wound tables work and the rad carbine special rule can plink Knights down thanks to their 3+ armor. Not to mention Stygies because -1 to hit ruins Knights shooting, no access to reliable rerolls and only one Strategem that allows one Knight to ignore the negative modifiers. Also one to two Knights will have a 4++ not all of them, shoot the one that's not the Warlord and change targets after Ion Shields has been popped.
And if you are truly going against a full Knight melee list a round of shooting followed by another round of chaff clearing by the Knights should give ample time to bring down one and severely wound another if not outright kill, unless you did bring five or six Kastelan, in which case, why?
Knights are strong but when you're only facing four models that doesn't scare me. And this is coming from someone who owns four Questors, four Armigers and a Valiant. It would be a good fight Knights vs AdMech but saying AdMech are awful by comparison is simply silly. I swear AdMech players are the worst.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 01:35:31
I agree. Not particularly scared of Knights on their own. There are many ways to screen them away from your gunline and kill them before they get into melee range, and if it's just two sides taking turns shooting, we'll win.
This is also why I think solo Knights are ideal. You can support it with some great alpha assault units and shooting. Alternatively, it can support your gunline, protecting it from Slamguinius and the likes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a topic not related to Knights, I was beginning to kitbash some Electro-Priests (Mantic ghoul legs, Bloodletter torso, Flagellant weapons, Anvil Gladiator helmets and Gothic shoulders, Electro-Priest bushings), and I noticed something bothersome that compels me to ask this question: Who the hell thought it was a good idea to put these guys on 32mm bases?
1) The stock model easily fits on 25mm.
2) They're humans that are stripped to the waist.
Anyhow, I am probably going to base these guys on 25mm bases. Because I might have a use for them as melee Cultists too, if I ever decide to turn from the Emperor's light and play a Word Bearer's army or something.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/09 14:06:42
If you play ITC then killing that small squad in non-LOS terrain can win you the game. There are giant point swings if you fail to kill a unit per turn. The Ironstorms, when taken in quantity, can threaten to kill that MSU unit your opponent has tucked on an objective. 3x ironstorms are 3d6 str5,-1,2dam guns that could plausibly kill 5x scout marines in a turn. Or kill 3x nurgling blobs. Or pop some pathfinders. 3x ironstorm pods are 48, 1x stormspear is 45. The knight list I had prepared for today but could get a game with had 3x ironstorms. They are for sure bad if you are trying to make a shooting knight. Or if you only have 1 knight because 1x ironstorm is never going to kill a unit and has marginal anti armor utility.
I would much rather just take some Mortar teams to do that job though. I mean, every Imperium list is going to be taking a barebones Guard battalion with 5+/5+ CP recycling anyway.
Wulfey wrote: If you play ITC then killing that small squad in non-LOS terrain can win you the game. There are giant point swings if you fail to kill a unit per turn. The Ironstorms, when taken in quantity, can threaten to kill that MSU unit your opponent has tucked on an objective. 3x ironstorms are 3d6 str5,-1,2dam guns that could plausibly kill 5x scout marines in a turn. Or kill 3x nurgling blobs. Or pop some pathfinders. 3x ironstorm pods are 48, 1x stormspear is 45. The knight list I had prepared for today but could get a game with had 3x ironstorms. They are for sure bad if you are trying to make a shooting knight. Or if you only have 1 knight because 1x ironstorm is never going to kill a unit and has marginal anti armor utility.
What goodies were in your bag of tricks today then?
Elite - 306 18x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 502
Lord of War - 502 Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 2000 points 13 CP
Currently leaning toward the Crusader list. I've always considered adding a single Mortar team to get the fourth order from my Commanders. Plus Master of Ordnance on three Basilisks is actually quite cost-efficient. I lose one Fulgurite, but I get the Vanguard upgrade for my Skitarii, which lets them run around for a turn before they are mowed down by some anti-horde weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/10 14:56:35
Elite - 306 18x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 502
Lord of War - 502 Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 2000 points 13 CP
Currently leaning toward the Crusader list. I've always considered adding a single Mortar team to get the fourth order from my Commanders. Plus Master of Ordnance on three Basilisks is actually quite cost-efficient. I lose one Fulgurite, but I get the Vanguard upgrade for my Skitarii, which lets them run around for a turn before they are mowed down by some anti-horde weapon.
If I’m determined to make Taranis work. What’s the knight for me?
Love both lists! But I agree the crusader seems more valid in ad mech soup. Most likely for cp usage . Priests and Dragoons need CP. Same goes for the knight. And if you aim for warden the CP are more demanding. You can still use the knight later on etc.
Still I m not sure! Cawl helps a lot vs 4+ bs and many armies giving you a -1 to hit as their defence I believe is important to use Cawl Mars robots onagers with reroll everything. Leave the guard and take a nice mech line and then use warden and rest to go deep behind enemy lines. Why would I need a guard.
Seems like I'm forced to take guard and I don't like it. And cause those basilisks didn't work well for me so far and because with Cawl and Robots I know 100% my enemy will be torn between offence and defence! Both will be superb Dragoons priests knight offensive onagers and Robots gun line . Seem v v hard to counter in my eyes. Ok I loose a bit of CP recycling but still getting 6' from ad mech and a bit of chaff still not bad with ad mech. Still not sure your lists seem nice suzuteo but still wondering!
Elite - 306 18x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Raven Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 502
Lord of War - 502 Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Total: 2000 points 13 CP
Currently leaning toward the Crusader list. I've always considered adding a single Mortar team to get the fourth order from my Commanders. Plus Master of Ordnance on three Basilisks is actually quite cost-efficient. I lose one Fulgurite, but I get the Vanguard upgrade for my Skitarii, which lets them run around for a turn before they are mowed down by some anti-horde weapon.
If I’m determined to make Taranis work. What’s the knight for me?
Maybe a gallant or warden with the mark of the omnissiah and 3 CP for in our darkest hour and a CP reroll, that's what I'm doing at least.
lash92 wrote: Why are you leaning towards the Crusader, I thought you prefer the Warden?
Explained some of it, but the primary driver is that they released the actual copy of the Raven stratagem, which said it only affects shooting. I was thinking it affects either shooting or fighting, perhaps both. So it's a lot less powerful on a Raven now. Freeblade makes more sense for Warden. I think the Q&B combo is Legendary Hero + Weary Machine Spirit + Haunted by Failure.
Ideasweasel wrote: If I’m determined to make Taranis work. What’s the knight for me?
I think anyone can use Taranis. It's a nice durability bonus plus a chance to zombify. Your best bets are Crusader, Warden, or Gallant (in that order). I would consider which you want and then build around it; Crusader and Raven sort of look like my list, but the Gallant can go into a Cawlstar or more traditional gunline. Anyhow, I went with this composition because AdMech has one of the few remaining alpha strike capabilities right now, so I would use that to force the opponent to deploy and play defensively. Your artillery has more breathing space then; it's like a reverse scout move. Removing his anti-tank would then be key for your infiltrators though. Not 100% sure how effective it is in practice, but it is scary on paper.
Yoda79 wrote: Still I m not sure! Cawl helps a lot vs 4+ bs and many armies giving you a -1 to hit as their defence I believe is important to use Cawl Mars robots onagers with reroll everything. Leave the guard and take a nice mech line and then use warden and rest to go deep behind enemy lines. Why would I need a guard.
I think the Guard is necessary because we still need to control ground for objectives. It's nice that in this list, things can split up easier than a Cawlstar can. The Guard can be deployed on your side of the board; the Electro-Priests and Dragoons deploy for the assault; Vanguard and the Crusader can roam. Cawl and Kastelan Robots always end up making a "Cawl Wall" that anchors half the army between two objectives.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 01:46:14
So guys I have a local tournament upcoming (1750pts) with some restrictions regarding list building, namely:
- max 2 detachments (one needs to be a batallion)
- max 1 LoW
I wanna take an Stygies Batallion backed up by a Knight, which leaves me with 8 CP to play with.
Basically what do you think which Knight works best with least / a low CP investment?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 09:50:00
lash92 wrote: Yeah 2 detachments forgot the number...
Taransis was the Zombie one right?^^
Correct. Lots of defensive bonuses, and the fact that you are fighting in melee so often makes Rotate Ion Shields less important (though not unimportant, since enemies can fall back). Zombification is optional, but it is psychologically damaging.
But we don´t get Household Traditions in an Superheavy Aux. right? So wouldn´t a Krast Gallant be better, for the 1CP stratagem with exploding 6s in CQC.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Funktastic wrote: So what do you guys feel like is the best variant of knight to run with a Stygies VIII Battalion gunline with infiltrating Dragoons and 2 Helverins?
Did you already had the opportunity for some testing?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/11 11:32:11
