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1) you are forced to use guard for cp cycling. 5+/5+ don't even come close to 6+ for every stratagem used not CP used.

So main change 6+ for every CP used.

Every imperial army (except Ultramarine's) suffer from this. The logical answer is not to buff everyone else but to nerf Guard to 6+ per stratagem.

 lash92 wrote:
So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?

I've been playing around with various options and in someways its the harder choice than which nights to take

AM: Basic Battalion - solid choice offerssome early objective control and some screening and doesnt consume CP

AM: Enhanced battalion strap on 3 HWT same as above really but helps with the hoard clearence more pts but worth it can be taken with above

BA: I wanted BA to work and certainly in the mirror its ok but the problem is there just isnt enough CP to keep both factions optimal and so you strap on a guard battalion and go for maximum cp cycleing and before you know it you dont have a knight warlord and your down to 1200pts of knights. If anything it makes fighting hordes harder.

Admech - I think theres a role for it in a team tournament when your AM detatchment is going to your team mate-adding sone repair is ok and a deep strikeing dragoon squad is nice and distracting while your knights get into position. However its costly and a min speced battalion is just worse than the AM option.

IQ - more of a buffing option not going to generate you the CP but doesn't consume it as a cheap tertiary it has something to offer -the psychic power denying overwatch can potentially help that warden/gallant not get shot to bits when chargeing an anti tank model. Also the Ld 10 inquisitors allow canis rex and a freeblade to burden much less often. Worst case they provide some anti psyker and some smite.

Myself im looking at the enhanced AM+IQ I think
Also had strong results from the double AM option

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 Ordana wrote:

1) you are forced to use guard for cp cycling. 5+/5+ don't even come close to 6+ for every stratagem used not CP used.

So main change 6+ for every CP used.

Every imperial army (except Ultramarine's) suffer from this. The logical answer is not to buff everyone else but to nerf Guard to 6+ per stratagem.

Or remove cp cycleing from matched play

 lash92 wrote:
So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?

Been stripping my Secutarii and Cawl and repainting them blue (and not ugly) like the rest of my army. So I don't have a table-top ready army at the moment.

Here's my reference model, alongside some other models I use for a height comparison:



My money is still on BA Battalion (Slamguinius + Mephiston + Scouts) + Guard Battalion (CP Battery + Basilisks) + Mars Battalion (Cawlstar).

My BAO list:

cawl
enginseer
rangers
rangers
rangers
neutronager
4 robots

company commander
primaris psyker
infantry squad
infantry, bolter, mortar
infantry, bolter, mortar
2 basilisks

knight castellan 4++ cawls wrath

 lash92 wrote:
So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?

I ran RAVEN + BLANGELS + MORDIA. I had a castellan, warden, and gallant. I had 2 smash captains. I tabled two opponents, but lost a close game against a top tier aloitocBattalion, VectBattalion, 3x hemlock list. The warden is the stinker in the list but I don't have the points for something better. He kept being a bum that barely did any damage. The gallant is beast most and should be suicide charged into the enemy as soon as you can. The smash captains were heroes and did smash captain things. The castellan kills two units a turn and threatens everything in the game (except tzaangor and cultist megablobs, but you have gallants for that). I really want to drop the smash captains to take more knights, but they are just huge for winning games. The scouts that come with them are also excellent if you can tuck them somewhere where they can't get shot.

The other knight player who got 2nd (I got 4th) ran:
TARANIS - castellan, crusader, gallant
CADIA - min battalion
ASSASINS - culexus, callidus, eversor

THis list is much more reliant on making that taranis get back up trick and doesn't have the captains as an answer to things. But the culexus helps against psychic. I would still prefer my list for taking on the top tier eldar stuff since the eldar will always be able to maneuver around the culexus and the crusader + castellan is only marginally more shooting, if at all, than a single RAVEN castellan with the strategem. And relying on the resurrect feels super chancy.

Wait, I thought he asked about admech soup. Not 0 admech

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Wait, I thought he asked about admech soup. Not 0 admech

Thats right ;-) I like Suzuteo´s soup. It´s a good mix of strong shooting, CQC and has some psychic defense in the form of Mephiston.
Do you run full 6 Dakkabots or less Bots with some Crawlers?

 ph34r wrote:
My BAO list:

cawl
enginseer
rangers
rangers
rangers
neutronager
4 robots

company commander
primaris psyker
infantry squad
infantry, bolter, mortar
infantry, bolter, mortar
2 basilisks

knight castellan 4++ cawls wrath

Best of luck next week.


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Wulfey wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?

I ran RAVEN + BLANGELS + MORDIA. I had a castellan, warden, and gallant. I had 2 smash captains. I tabled two opponents, but lost a close game against a top tier aloitocBattalion, VectBattalion, 3x hemlock list. The warden is the stinker in the list but I don't have the points for something better. He kept being a bum that barely did any damage. The gallant is beast most and should be suicide charged into the enemy as soon as you can. The smash captains were heroes and did smash captain things. The castellan kills two units a turn and threatens everything in the game (except tzaangor and cultist megablobs, but you have gallants for that). I really want to drop the smash captains to take more knights, but they are just huge for winning games. The scouts that come with them are also excellent if you can tuck them somewhere where they can't get shot.

The other knight player who got 2nd (I got 4th) ran:
TARANIS - castellan, crusader, gallant
CADIA - min battalion
ASSASINS - culexus, callidus, eversor

THis list is much more reliant on making that taranis get back up trick and doesn't have the captains as an answer to things. But the culexus helps against psychic. I would still prefer my list for taking on the top tier eldar stuff since the eldar will always be able to maneuver around the culexus and the crusader + castellan is only marginally more shooting, if at all, than a single RAVEN castellan with the strategem. And relying on the resurrect feels super chancy.

What happened to the tri Gallant list? Did you get a chance to test it or realise a big flaw?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suzuteo wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
So now that the Knight codex is out for a few weeks what are your guys experience.
What is our most strongest soup option? AdMech + Guard + Blood Angels or AdMech + Knight(s) + Guard / BA?

Been stripping my Secutarii and Cawl and repainting them blue (and not ugly) like the rest of my army. So I don't have a table-top ready army at the moment.

Here's my reference model, alongside some other models I use for a height comparison:



My money is still on BA Battalion (Slamguinius + Mephiston + Scouts) + Guard Battalion (CP Battery + Basilisks) + Mars Battalion (Cawlstar).

Suzuteo I really like that cool blue colour. Very easy on the eye. Good job dude

 ph34r wrote:
My BAO list:

cawl
enginseer
rangers
rangers
rangers
neutronager
4 robots

company commander
primaris psyker
infantry squad
infantry, bolter, mortar
infantry, bolter, mortar
2 basilisks

knight castellan 4++ cawls wrath

Some feedback:

1) Castellan and Kastelans are a strong gun line, but you don't have anything to de-risk this list. Any short deployment against an assault army is pretty much an auto-lose. Scouts would go a very long way in buying your gunline the time it needs to do its job.

2) Nothing in this list fights, deep strikes, or has decent mobility. You have very little ability to counter-charge, threaten the enemy backline, or play the board.

3) Lots of inefficient choices. Cawl is really pricey to buff 4 Kastelans and 1 Crawler; a lone Crawler is a lot less durable than a pair; a Castellan, 2 Basilisks, and a Neutron Crawler seems like anti-tank overkill; only one Commander means you can't detach the Guardsmen to MMM and grab objectives.

-2 Basilisk
-1 Primaris Psyker
-2 Mortar
-1 Neutron Crawler
+1 Company Commander
+1 Kastelan Robot
+4 Dragoon

Alternatively, you can double down on Crawlers and take an Icarus and a Neutron over 4 Dragoons. Just accept that you will have really bad matchups on the short deployment.

The trouble with a gallant list is that I bought a castellan. So ... I just had to run it. A RAVEN castellan with his strategem is comparable in power to a 550 pack of Cawl backed robots. Also, that first gallant is amazing. If I ran admech again I would for sure bring 1 gallant in an aux detachment and give him the 2" charge WLT. A landstrider gallant has a solid 24" first turn charge threat range. But three gallants ... like ... it is not hard to get that first gallant in there. But I was really feeling the weakness from my one gallant against the eldar list. I killed every eldar model on the ground by turn 2. The rest were infantry on ruins and flyers. What does a 3 gallant list do there? Wave at the flyers? And the flyers have an awesome profile for shooting gallants too. Now gallants and stygies icarus crawlers, okay, yeah, that starts to make sense. There was a 2 gallant list there and I ended up tabling it. The other knight list had only 1 gallant. I don't think they scale as well as I hoped against top table lists. I would also add that staff priests and dragoons will struggle for the same reasons against the super hard eldar lists.

If I ran my admech again, which I am leary of doing because castellans exist (a raven castellan can kill 3-4 robots a turn). Hmm ... maybe I need to buy a box of helverins now that i think about it. I played a knight list and my smash captains and castellan were enough to drop a knight a turn. My gallant was devastating when he made his charge, but he didn't help against hard opponents. He was kind of a Win-More play. Perhaps I need to run this instead to help me out against the truly hard lists. Against another knight list I would trade smash captains into knights and let the castellan do his work. Against Eldar my castellan would be a big target, but the rest of my list would actually be good at shooting his stuff. Hmm ...

STYGIES - 2x engi (6+/6+ or necromechanic if you expect lots of shooting), skitarri troops, 3x1 icarus [the best lists have flyers, weak lists don't have models with FLY]
BLANGELS - 2x smashcaptains, 3x5 scouts
RAVEN - 1x castellan, 2x helverin [these guys are boss and have cheap access to rerolls]

Or maybe I just stick with the list I got. Going to be thinking it over for the week.

Wulfey wrote:
The trouble with a gallant list is that I bought a castellan. So ... I just had to run it. Also, that first gallant is amazing. If I ran admech again I would for sure bring 1 gallant in an aux detachment and give him the 2" charge WLT. A landstrider gallant has a solid 24" first turn charge threat range. But three gallants ... like ... it is not hard to get that first gallant in there. But I was really feeling the weakness from my one gallant against the eldar list. I killed every eldar model on the ground by turn 2. The rest were infantry on ruins and flyers. What does a 3 gallant list do there? Wave at the flyers? And the flyers have an awesome profile for shooting gallants too. Now gallants and stygies icarus crawlers, okay, yeah, that starts to make sense.

Fair enough. It did sound fun on paper but not being able to hit your opponent is a bit too strong a drawback!

So what’s your final list for BAO looking like?

Wulfey wrote:
The trouble with a gallant list is that I bought a castellan. So ... I just had to run it. A RAVEN castellan with his strategem is comparable in power to a 550 pack of Cawl backed robots. Also, that first gallant is amazing. If I ran admech again I would for sure bring 1 gallant in an aux detachment and give him the 2" charge WLT. A landstrider gallant has a solid 24" first turn charge threat range. But three gallants ... like ... it is not hard to get that first gallant in there. But I was really feeling the weakness from my one gallant against the eldar list. I killed every eldar model on the ground by turn 2. The rest were infantry on ruins and flyers. What does a 3 gallant list do there? Wave at the flyers? And the flyers have an awesome profile for shooting gallants too. Now gallants and stygies icarus crawlers, okay, yeah, that starts to make sense. There was a 2 gallant list there and I ended up tabling it. The other knight list had only 1 gallant. I don't think they scale as well as I hoped against top table lists. I would also add that staff priests and dragoons will struggle for the same reasons against the super hard eldar lists.

If I ran my admech again, which I am leary of doing because castellans exist (a raven castellan can kill 3-4 robots a turn). Hmm ... maybe I need to buy a box of helverins now that i think about it. I played a knight list and my smash captains and castellan were enough to drop a knight a turn. My gallant was devastating when he made his charge, but he didn't help against hard opponents. He was kind of a Win-More play. Perhaps I need to run this instead to help me out against the truly hard lists. Against another knight list I would trade smash captains into knights and let the castellan do his work. Against Eldar my castellan would be a big target, but the rest of my list would actually be good at shooting his stuff. Hmm ...

STYGIES - 2x engi (6+/6+ or necromechanic if you expect lots of shooting), skitarri troops, 3x1 icarus [the best lists have flyers, weak lists don't have models with FLY]
BLANGELS - 2x smashcaptains, 3x5 scouts
RAVEN - 1x castellan, 2x helverin [these guys are boss and have cheap access to rerolls]

Or maybe I just stick with the list I got. Going to be thinking it over for the week.

I think if you're running three Knights, my friends have been telling me that the best combination seems to be Raven Castellan/Crusader + Errant/Warden + naked Gallant (make sure this Gallant is NOT a character so it can screen your Slamguinius, Assassins, etc). You want to also bring a barebones Guard CP battery or maybe Scouts. One single naked Gallant is great, but two or three suck terribly against infantry and flier heavy lists. And yeah, you have to shoot the Eldar dead or use flyers to assault them.

I think it is a mistake not to run something just because something can kill it. I mean, Kastelans kill practically anything, including Castellans. Do people just give up? No. They run assault units to force us to deploy defensively and limit the options of Kastelans on turn one. We should do likewise to Castellans, which are much harder to hide and castle.

In my opinion though, the army to beat is Eldar Soup. Taking Mephiston instead of a second Slamguinius might be a good idea. Icarus Crawlers and Culexus might also be worthwhile.

Btw how do you guys deal with Tau? (Besides Cawl and Bots) Those stupid drones and their overwatch (especially this flamer battlesuit from FW) are killing me...
My nemesis match up...

 lash92 wrote:
Btw how do you guys deal with Tau? (Besides Cawl and Bots) Those stupid drones and their overwatch (especially this flamer battlesuit from FW) are killing me...
My nemesis match up...

Tau is honestly just an easier Eldar matchup at this point. Kastelans and Icarus Crawlers.

Suzuteo wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
My BAO list:

cawl
enginseer
rangers
rangers
rangers
neutronager
4 robots

company commander
primaris psyker
infantry squad
infantry, bolter, mortar
infantry, bolter, mortar
2 basilisks

knight castellan 4++ cawls wrath

Some feedback:

1) Castellan and Kastelans are a strong gun line, but you don't have anything to de-risk this list. Any short deployment against an assault army is pretty much an auto-lose. Scouts would go a very long way in buying your gunline the time it needs to do its job.

2) Nothing in this list fights, deep strikes, or has decent mobility. You have very little ability to counter-charge, threaten the enemy backline, or play the board.

3) Lots of inefficient choices. Cawl is really pricey to buff 4 Kastelans and 1 Crawler; a lone Crawler is a lot less durable than a pair; a Castellan, 2 Basilisks, and a Neutron Crawler seems like anti-tank overkill; only one Commander means you can't detach the Guardsmen to MMM and grab objectives.

-2 Basilisk
-1 Primaris Psyker
-2 Mortar
-1 Neutron Crawler
+1 Company Commander
+1 Kastelan Robot
+4 Dragoon

Alternatively, you can double down on Crawlers and take an Icarus and a Neutron over 4 Dragoons. Just accept that you will have really bad matchups on the short deployment.

1. Very true, I am not really prepared for fighting hugely assault armies. I don't have much practice against those in general. Some matchups for me I think are going to just be not good.

2. I consider Cawl and the Castellan to be "sort of" fighters but still you have a point. I could pretty easily add in Elysians in the form of a commander and 2 special weapon plasma squads.

3. Fair point that the guardsmen don't have anyone to go run around with, I was thinking the modicum of psychic defense might be more valuable. I was thinking with a lone crawler it might hopefully attract firepower that I would rather not be aimed at the Castellan and Robots on turn 1.
I straight up do not have Dragoon models so that is unfortunately not an option for me and I do want to keep at least one of the basilisks. If I am understanding you correctly, your suggestion is going for 2 crawlers (or 3?)

Somehow its more of a struggle for me than those space elves... Maybe I'm just lacking the number of shots that a Cawlstar is able to put out.
Do you point the robots directly at the suits or at the Drones first?

 ph34r wrote:
1. Very true, I am not really prepared for fighting hugely assault armies. I don't have much practice against those in general. Some matchups for me I think are going to just be not good.

2. I consider Cawl and the Castellan to be "sort of" fighters but still you have a point. I could pretty easily add in Elysians in the form of a commander and 2 special weapon plasma squads.

3. Fair point that the guardsmen don't have anyone to go run around with, I was thinking the modicum of psychic defense might be more valuable. I was thinking with a lone crawler it might hopefully attract firepower that I would rather not be aimed at the Castellan and Robots on turn 1.
I straight up do not have Dragoon models so that is unfortunately not an option for me and I do want to keep at least one of the basilisks. If I am understanding you correctly, your suggestion is going for 2 crawlers (or 3?)

Another problem is that those seeker missiles can KO your Commander, so splitting the CP recyclers up is helpful.

Yikes... hm... I am worried you're trying to do too much here then. Do you have Electro-Priests? Maybe switch to a Stygies heavy build for your AdMech?

 lash92 wrote:
Somehow its more of a struggle for me than those space elves... Maybe I'm just lacking the number of shots that a Cawlstar is able to put out.
Do you point the robots directly at the suits or at the Drones first?

Your best bet is to have your infantry remove the Drones from the Battlesuits before shooting them.

Quick question for those of you who have run dragoons and Armigers, especially anyone who has experience running dragoons as something other than stygies.

Do you feel like Armigers do a decent job of filling in the role dragoons would typically do in an average admech list? I just cannot afford to get dragoons right now but need some melee admech punch for the next step up I'm going in the league. Since I already own warglaives I figured they could fill the roll in a pinch. Other than that all I really own with melee ability is a squad of infiltrators so my options are kind of limited. I know they're not as good, I just need them to do a halfway decent job. I'm running Metallica as that is how I'm painted for reference, running stygies or Mars is not an option as I'm locked into faction choices through the league.

The Warglaives will be Raven if I add them in at this 1000pt stage as I plan on adding a Castellan at higher point totals. I was considering something like this going into 1000pts

We are running ItC by the way


Random note, vanguard do extremely well at low points with plasma by the way. At 500pts I took as many as I could with plasma and a Dominus with phosphoenix/ordered efficiency and tore up the first stage. They just murder everything at that level as Metallica since they're more mobile than people expect. Dominus is also suprisingly good at that level since he just refuses to die. I plan on dialing the vanguard back as I go up in points and reverting them to barebones squads to grab objectives, but for now they're doing well. This will probably be the last stage they are run with plasma at all, as the knights and onagers will be able to pick up the slack later on.

Dragoons punch way harder than Armigers.

If you want something cheap and punchy, kitbash a Slamguinius or two. Maybe a Mephiston? My Slamguinius cost $8:



(He's my model for the Dakka Dakka monthly painting contest.)

Bought a botched Prosecutor, stripped it, added Blood Angels shield, head, shoulders. Also made the Prosecutor hammer larger with pieces of a Skitarii Arc Maul. Alternatively, just buy any Blood Angels model and strap on a hammer and a jet pack.

Vanguard are amazing at low points, yeah.

Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?

I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well

Thoughts?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?

I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well

Thoughts?

They'll still virtually murder one. Squad of 4 on average deals about 22 wounds I think and a 4+ save isnt enough to save them with that many attacks that wound on a 4, and if you have the +1 str cancticle active you can wound it on a 3. Add in any re-rolls you have and it's in for a world of hurt. A knight on it's last health band against a stygies army means it's pretty much a melee only knight at that point without spending CP.

it's also worth noting that 4 dragoons can surround a knight and prevent it from falling back, as the knight can only move over infantry and swarms when falling back.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?

I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well

Thoughts?

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/

4 Dragoons do 11 damage on average to a Knight. (with +2 to hit).
12 attacks, 22 hit after tesla, 11 wounds, 5.5 failed saves, 11 damage.

Thanks folks, I suppose I could double down on canticles too and have rerolling 1s and strength. I hadn’t really thought of that.

That mathhammer website doesn’t have a drop down for exploding 6’s for hits though does it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*edit*

Ahh that’s what Tesla does gotcha haha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doesn’t a knight have a native 3+ save thought not 4?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Thanks folks, I suppose I could double down on canticles too and have rerolling 1s and strength. I hadn’t really thought of that.

That mathhammer website doesn’t have a drop down for exploding 6’s for hits though does it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*edit*

Ahh that’s what Tesla does gotcha haha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doesn’t a knight have a native 3+ save thought not 4?

And the Dragoon's lance has a -1 ap.

But of course it does!

Oh dear I forgot about that

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?

I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well

Thoughts?

My math says 4 Dragoons, on average, deal 12.22 wounds to a Knight with the +1S bonus and CDI stratagem. For 272 points, that is an amazing amount of damage. For comparison, two Neutron Crawlers with Cawl reroll only deal 6.91 wounds.

So is the Icarus still the beat choice overall for Dunecrawlers or nah?

Suzuteo wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Those that use dragoons. I’m shortly going to have 4-5. How do they fare against knights? If I infiltrate a squad of 4 and use the +2 Strat can they chip enough of a dent or are they best choosing other targets?

I wondered if the 3+ save of the knight and lack of AP would mean they wouldn’t do too well

Thoughts?

My math says 4 Dragoons, on average, deal 12.22 wounds to a Knight with the +1S bonus and CDI stratagem. For 272 points, that is an amazing amount of damage. For comparison, two Neutron Crawlers with Cawl reroll only deal 6.91 wounds.

It’s looking pretty good. I’m currently trying to figure out which is better, drop a 20 man electro staff priest bomb on the knight or 4 dragoons? Mathhammer seems to think the priests cause 20 wounds inc mortals!(assuming I lost 4 to overwatch)

That seems a little high to me. Starting to wonder if I’ve calculated that correctly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So is the Icarus still the beat choice overall for Dunecrawlers or nah?

Yes. Everyone and their mom flies because it's hugely beneficial. If you want anti-vehicle/tank, there are much better high strength fighting options available, especially ones that fly (ironic).

 Ideasweasel wrote:
It’s looking pretty good. I’m currently trying to figure out which is better, drop a 20 man electro staff priest bomb on the knight or 4 dragoons? Mathhammer seems to think the priests cause 20 wounds inc mortals!(assuming I lost 4 to overwatch)

That seems a little high to me. Starting to wonder if I’ve calculated that correctly.

Made a typo in my math. Dragoons actually deal 13.33 damage against Knights, with or without Sanctuary.

17 Fulgurites is the equivalent of 4 Dragoons. With Zealous Congregation letting them fight twice, they deal 28 damage to a Castellan on average; 25.5 damage to a Knight with rotated Sanctuary. But they are MUCH squishier. If you don't go first to kill a unit, they are like Guardsmen in terms of their durability. Drills actually solve this problem, since they can hide inside and pop out when ready to punch.

I m officially more confused now !!!

I v tested some combinations and I got to say there was fair success . I broke down somearts of the lists to test individually. And came up with some personal data. I repeat personal.

1) The drill with 10-12 staff priests worked so nice. I used it since I got only 10 priests with one enginseer inside that also worked when I got Dragoons or knight advancing.

I disembarged enginseer to heal my Dragoons that they as always performed extremely good and then used my priest to mop up warlord and chars. The drill got a punch and it's good to have the option to infiltrate it. Even if I'm a fan of 19 priest unit the drill is important. Results most valuable to lowest.

A) drill makes the priests more durable!!!
B) gives a movement 8" to infantry
C) can deep strike or infiltrate
D) can shoot
C)can lower unit count for playing first.

So I take back my first impression about the drill it's a weapon that goes really nice with priests . Not perfect but still valid. Priests for me with. A reroll canticle in fight phase just killed everything. One game I even spend 3 CP and cleared the table with them before enemy reinf. It's a strong combination.

2) Castelan is a Beast. But.
After some testing iv decided this.
Only if I get detachment restrictions I would use Armiger's. Sure their nice but there are decisions to be made . And since we play ad mech I consider other options more valid than paying 170ish points for them.

Still in a restricted game I'd fill a superheavy detachment not in more easy tour rules etc. So aux for lists suerheavy onlay if restricted to limited detachments or without add mech.
Yes I like helverins for antiair cause I agree most too lists got air units and I like my Icarus onagers - helverins . For me doing almost same role! Glaives I m still debating. But I don't seem to need more with Castelan.

3) I want to use my ad mech so I have fixed a battalion I basically use and add it to various lists. 850-1000 points battalion stygies drill Dragoons priests etc! And after watching some tour games etc I v concluded that two icarus would fit nice my mobile stygies battalion!

4) Guard. What can I say who cares about recycling CP gallants etc when there is guard. Brigade mortars just ad up to a Castelan or smashcaptains superb. The list with captaisn Castelan and guard brigade got be the bad ass around . But it's big hordish team preffered tactical list not what I like to play since if it comes to that I prefer to play my Abba Ahriman horde list.
Still I gotta admit a cheap brigade is not to be ignored especially if you got captwins and q Castelan to spend CP upon.

So yes as I said confused !! I like some options I see the current meta I like may lists but I need to get two icarus inside my list keeping my mobilitay get some anti air / hordish options and remain in my concept knight guard stygies concept for competitive play. For may current models that is.

I'm not sure if I invest in warglaives maybe some melee knights and Cawl star but I m just so against a stationary army like robots and my main issue starting to play chaos!

So inside my mobility plan i consider the list of Castelan with guard brigade and smash captains extremely well though off.

And would like to somewhat try something like it but not so slow moving slow playing hordish thing.

A)Aux Castelan seems solid now
B)Guard battalion if not more a logical take if not for cp cycling but for antihorde and screen easily.

C)Sure Shash could be good but I prefer ad mech in this role and a bit more poiints invest in my assault that two bikes!

What you like more how you would replace Castelan with Cawl star or if you prefer captains that drills and Dragoons it's you to you but that what I taking this Saturday in a local.