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The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyhow, I won't be participating in BAO, but here's an interesting idea:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 439
HQ - 274 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War (or Soulwarden), Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
Heavy Support - 660 6x Kastelan Robot (Mars) - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 2000 points 18 CP (-2)
I've been attempting to reconcile the whole Stygies vs. Mars question for awhile now, but I think that we're well past the point where the question is meaningful because of how pure shooting is pretty much out these days. We also have to contend with a ridiculous high-low mix of threats. Castellans and Knights at the high end, Eldar and Guard at the low end. This list attempts to balance shooting and fighting elements. For the shooting, a Cawlstar, which can still delete units off the map like nothing else. For the fighting, Slamguinius and Mephiston backed by choppy Scouts (don't underestimate how dangerous Chainswords are with Red Thirst) and a Drill filled with Fulgurites. The AdMech Battalion is mixed, meaning we lose the dogmas, but we gain flexibility in stratagem usage; losing the extra Canticle is never a big deal, and the Drill is never outside of 12" anyway. Wrath of Mars, Clandestine Infiltration, and Steel Logic are all really good stratagems and well worth the trade-off.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/07/24 00:07:39
Really nice post. I still don't like taking more than 4 kastelans though. Basically losing 660 pts if anything makes it there is rough. And is the guard battery REALLY necesary? I'd take assassins probably.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/24 03:17:42
I might continue expanding and try out the blood angels later down the line if I can find a BA successor that jives with the Mechanicus particularly well in background.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Really nice post. I still don't like taking more than 4 kastelans though. Basically losing 660 pts if anything makes it there is rough. And is the guard battery REALLY necesary? I'd take assassins probably.
I think so. The list is very CP hungry. And you're probably right. 6x Kastelan might be too tempting a target for melee or anti-tank. Thing is though, 220 points is awkward. Maybe cut one and add a Techmarine and Heavy Mortar Squad in? That or give two of your infantry Lascannons. Hm...
Which ones? Eversor and Culexus tend to be the best. But with the high-low mix of threats, I worry about taking something like triple Eversor or Culexus and ending up with dead points. Also, losing 5 CP is a real heavy blow...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ph34r wrote: I might continue expanding and try out the blood angels later down the line if I can find a BA successor that jives with the Mechanicus particularly well in background.
I made my own Successors. I call them the Angels Ferrugine (colors are rust and silver). Instead of Sanguinary Priests, they rely on Techmarines to control the effects of the Black Rage through technology and psycho-genetic manipulation. The Blood Angels considers them apostates and shun them, but they are still loyalists.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/07/24 05:42:52
I agree that 6 Robots is a high investment point wise and I'm just not a fan of the associated playstyle. But if you could 2 wouldn't it be a waste two have Cawl for just 4 bots?
If you should decide to cut 2 bots maybe invest the points in a bare bones Captain with Veritas Vitae and a Devastator Squad with HB and ML, so you can dish nearly guaranteed 2D3 MW per turn and have some CP regen.
Just realized making the list it's not valid. You can't take Cawl if not Mars !!!!! That's why I have not made this list before. It's sad but true . Cawl must be in Mars detachment and tbh I don't seem to get a proper list with knight and Robots it's also an extreme dakka invest. As I was making it with a Castelan that is . I LL try to make something and post it . Gonna test it tonight. Priests and drill is amuzt for me
Ordana wrote: You can mix Forges in a detachment, you just lose the Dogma benefit.
Cawl does not need a pure Mars detachment.
Yeah you could have a mixed stygies/Mars detachment, but the only benefit would be the strategems. Your stygies would lose their -1 to being hit for example but could still infiltrate
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
To be fair besides the -1 from Stygies the rest of the dogmas are not as good as the stratagems. A mixed detachment gives you access to:
- Cawl + WrathofMars Bots
- Stygies infiltrate
- Graias deny stratagem.
Timing questions about the Graia Steel Mind, iron Logic (AKA Abhor the Witch) stratagem:
1) Do you Deny or Abhor first?
2) Can you Deny then Abhor if the Deny fails?
And if you really, really want to, you can resurrect Destroyers with Agripinaa, improve plasma with Ryza, or deep strike with Lucius.
It's actually surprisingly how AdMech has really good stratagems, just awful dogmas.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/24 21:05:06
Suzuteo wrote: Timing questions about the Graia Steel Mind, iron Logic (AKA Abhor the Witch) stratagem:
1) Do you Deny or Abhor first?
2) Can you Deny then Abhor if the Deny fails?
And if you really, really want to, you can resurrect Destroyers with Agripinaa, improve plasma with Ryza, or deep strike with Lucius.
It's actually surprisingly how AdMech has really good stratagems, just awful dogmas.
I actually really like the Graia one for Skitarii but that's about it. Otherwise I think the 5+ Overwatch and Metalica super weak. At least Ryza is more usable than those...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Suzuteo wrote: Timing questions about the Graia Steel Mind, iron Logic (AKA Abhor the Witch) stratagem:
1) Do you Deny or Abhor first?
2) Can you Deny then Abhor if the Deny fails?
And if you really, really want to, you can resurrect Destroyers with Agripinaa, improve plasma with Ryza, or deep strike with Lucius.
It's actually surprisingly how AdMech has really good stratagems, just awful dogmas.
You use the strategm after the psychic power is successfully manifested to negate it’s effects. So you can still attempt to deny before that.
220 points is 3 dragoons and a shade off 3 autocannon ironstriders. It’s 2 x 10 hoplites, it’s 2x eradication beamer onagers! There are so many things you can do with 220 points.
Also, this is an opinion, but; If you’re mixing forgeworlds just to get access to strategms to the extent you have 3 or 4 or more different ones, then you really have fallen deeply to the dark side of list building
I mean if you’re re-enacting the battle of 5 armies in 40k, fair enough, but otherwise the gaming of the system is so very real lol. If that sort of thing becomes popular in tournaments i wouldnt be surprised to see a 2 or 3 <faction> limit in matched play the same as we now have erstrictions on the imperium, chaos and aeldari keywords within detachments. Because it’s just an absurd situation to realistically occur under 2k points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/24 21:51:27
To be fair Admech is one of the few armies where you would be actually tempted to do it. Most armies have traits that aren't completely trash or don't even affect 90% of the codex (yay Metallica) so you're not tempted to go that way. IG for example would be very hesitant to mix regiments like that.
It really is mind boggling how bad the forgeworlds traits are. In my league for example, everyone assumes Metallica's trait is awesome because I'm tearing up the low levels with vanguard. All they see is vanguard sprinting around corners and nuking things with plasma calivers. I've tried to explain to them countless times that vanguard are one of maybe 3 units that can even benefit from our trait, but no one believes me. I will admit our warlord trait is very useful but when whole armies get that ability it feels kind of underwhelming to only have it in a 6" aura around one model.
If we're going to wish list, Metallica really should have been "treat all weapons a model is carrying as assault weapons if it advances and ignore the penalty to accuracy for advancing". Basically just copy the Raven trait word for word. It feels like half the weapons in the codex are heavy, and many of the non heavy weapons are secondary weapons to supplement a main heavy weapon. It just eats at me something fierce to see a trait that is so obviously useless if you actually played the army not be caught by the people who wrote the book. It's really insulting when other armies get that exact trait like necrons or knights yet we get stuck with a pitiful amount of weapons it interacts with.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Octovol wrote: You use the strategm after the psychic power is successfully manifested to negate it’s effects. So you can still attempt to deny before that.
220 points is 3 dragoons and a shade off 3 autocannon ironstriders. It’s 2 x 10 hoplites, it’s 2x eradication beamer onagers! There are so many things you can do with 220 points.
Also, this is an opinion, but; If you’re mixing forgeworlds just to get access to strategms to the extent you have 3 or 4 or more different ones, then you really have fallen deeply to the dark side of list building
I mean if you’re re-enacting the battle of 5 armies in 40k, fair enough, but otherwise the gaming of the system is so very real lol. If that sort of thing becomes popular in tournaments i wouldnt be surprised to see a 2 or 3 <faction> limit in matched play the same as we now have erstrictions on the imperium, chaos and aeldari keywords within detachments. Because it’s just an absurd situation to realistically occur under 2k points.
But Deny also occurs immediately after manifesting! Anyhow, I am thinking I can Deny first, then Abhor if the Deny fails. The timing seems simultaneous, so player with initiative (you) gets to decide the order.
The Dragoons are tempting, but if I only have 4 Mars Robots, then Cawl isn't worthwhile any more. And none of those shooting options are as versatile as Robots. Robots literally kill anything and everything. (More dakka, less problems.)
Octovol wrote: You use the strategm after the psychic power is successfully manifested to negate it’s effects. So you can still attempt to deny before that.
220 points is 3 dragoons and a shade off 3 autocannon ironstriders. It’s 2 x 10 hoplites, it’s 2x eradication beamer onagers! There are so many things you can do with 220 points.
Also, this is an opinion, but; If you’re mixing forgeworlds just to get access to strategms to the extent you have 3 or 4 or more different ones, then you really have fallen deeply to the dark side of list building
I mean if you’re re-enacting the battle of 5 armies in 40k, fair enough, but otherwise the gaming of the system is so very real lol. If that sort of thing becomes popular in tournaments i wouldnt be surprised to see a 2 or 3 <faction> limit in matched play the same as we now have erstrictions on the imperium, chaos and aeldari keywords within detachments. Because it’s just an absurd situation to realistically occur under 2k points.
But Deny also occurs immediately after manifesting! Anyhow, I am thinking I can Deny first, then Abhor if the Deny fails. The timing seems simultaneous, so player with initiative (you) gets to decide the order.
The Dragoons are tempting, but if I only have 4 Mars Robots, then Cawl isn't worthwhile any more. And none of those shooting options are as versatile as Robots. Robots literally kill anything and everything. (More dakka, less problems.)
I see what you mean. I guess you get to pick what order you do them in if they can both be used at the same time.
I know I know, but the novelty of rolling 100 dice and just removing enemy models wears off and it actually feels more of a burden now for me: “Oh it’s robots what am i removing this time” My opponents have opted to take a mathhammer approach for speed and as soon as i roll to hit they decide if its enough to kill the unit without rolling any saves and just remove the unit instead. Its not fun for anyone.
4 robots is still plenty enough threat, but if tournament winning is all you’re after then sure, 6 gives you more effective dice. It is also why i dont use cawl any more, or tpd, they’re too many points for a model that just sits there buffing once you lessen the number of models theyre buffing.
But i appreciate my “meta” if you can even call it that, allows for a lot more flavour than your average tournament. 220 points isnt loads but its enough that it gives you options and in most of my games options is what i need to complete objectives and prevent someone hiding a unit out of los to prevent a tabling. Which i guess is why you guys takethe mortarteams. I’m really hoping we get the thanatar from 30k for that, i’d so much rather solve the problem without relying on dull army men.
Ive actually used beamer onagers to harass up close, hovering around its melta range and making sure it’s difficult for them to be charged, they're a good screen, theyre still pretty long range, good ap and damage in both modes, theyre tough to kill, cheap and they take up a lot of space if you position them skillfully and you’re looking to make it difficult for flying units jumping over stuff to get to your back line.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/25 00:41:02
Sure. If you're playing a fluffy list, bringing 6 Robots is a dick move. But against Castellans and Daemon Princes and Primarchs, I can only laugh maniacally as they bury their models in dice.
Rule of 3 smothered Beam Crawler spam in its crib. =\
Suzuteo wrote: The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
So weird to see that apparently no one at your place plays that abomination of a tau list that kicks ass left right and center over here. longstrike, 3 ion heads, riptide, that stupid FW flyer, some kroot, ghostkheel, droneport with disco light marksmen...good god that one is brutal.
I honestly dont understand how the castellan is actually good. It has so few shots on its main guns that it seems like a massive waste of points, I remember people poo poo ing it when it leaked. I must be missing something.
I think it's a massive over-commitment, especially for AdMech, but basically, Imperium Soup armies use heavily specialized detachments to stay competitive. They used to bring one heavy anti-tank option, typically a Shadowsword, and ton of anti-horde/flying.
A popular example was:
BA Battalion (2x Smash Captain or Mephiston/Lemartes, Scouts, and DC or SG)
Guard Brigade (Mortars, Scout Sentinels, Shadowsword)
Or:
BA Battalion (2x Smash Captain and Scouts)
Guard Battalion (Mortars, Shadowsword)
AdMech Battalion (Icarus Crawlers)
Now, they run something like:
BA Battalion (2x Smash Captain and Scouts)
Guard Battalion (Mortars, Hellhounds/Basilisks)
SH Auxiliary (Castellan)
Suzuteo wrote: The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
So weird to see that apparently no one at your place plays that abomination of a tau list that kicks ass left right and center over here. longstrike, 3 ion heads, riptide, that stupid FW flyer, some kroot, ghostkheel, droneport with disco light marksmen...good god that one is brutal.
This isn't my local store. It's from looking through top 16 lists. Though technically, I could consider Game Kastle MV to be a local store, and they are hosting BAO this weekend. I actually dropped by Warhammer Open Play at Game Kastle MV this week, just to look around. Sort of dead compared to the last time I went to that side of town. But the facilities are nice. Sort of thinking about playing there more often. I think Wulfey plays there once and awhile? Anyone else?
On a side note, if someone really desperately needs to borrow Dragoons or Blood Angels for BAO, I can probably drop by and lend you mine.
I have yet to see a scary Tau list. I mean, even pure AdMech is a stronger shooting army than they are; I think we're actually borderline tier 1, especially when supported by BA and paired with the Drill or a lone Gallant/Crusader/Castelan. Do you have the specifics of that one?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/25 20:05:12
I have yet to see a scary Tau list. I mean, even pure AdMech is a stronger shooting army than they are; I think we're actually borderline tier 1, especially when supported by BA and paired with the Drill or a lone Gallant/Crusader/Castelan. Do you have the specifics of that one?
There you go
Spoiler:
+++ Tau (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [107 PL, 2000pts] +++
Suzuteo wrote: The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyhow, I won't be participating in BAO, but here's an interesting idea:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 439
HQ - 274 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War (or Soulwarden), Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
Heavy Support - 660 6x Kastelan Robot (Mars) - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 2000 points 18 CP (-2)
I've been attempting to reconcile the whole Stygies vs. Mars question for awhile now, but I think that we're well past the point where the question is meaningful because of how pure shooting is pretty much out these days. We also have to contend with a ridiculous high-low mix of threats. Castellans and Knights at the high end, Eldar and Guard at the low end. This list attempts to balance shooting and fighting elements. For the shooting, a Cawlstar, which can still delete units off the map like nothing else. For the fighting, Slamguinius and Mephiston backed by choppy Scouts (don't underestimate how dangerous Chainswords are with Red Thirst) and a Drill filled with Fulgurites. The AdMech Battalion is mixed, meaning we lose the dogmas, but we gain flexibility in stratagem usage; losing the extra Canticle is never a big deal, and the Drill is never outside of 12" anyway. Wrath of Mars, Clandestine Infiltration, and Steel Logic are all really good stratagems and well worth the trade-off.
This is the correct read of the meta. I regard MARS admech as dead. I ran some mathhammer on my castellan. With the strategem and assuming the admech player has pshroudpsalm and aegis protocols, the castellan will kill on average 4 robots a turn (3 if he can't get in melta range, which is still gg). Without aegis it is even worse. And assuming the admech player goes first, if the castellan player plays the 3++ strategem and the 5+++ versus mortals strategem, it is statistically almost impossible that even a 6 dakkabot volley kills the castellan. How can I take my main list to a tourney when the castellan exist? Assuming nothing is nerfed between now and socal open, my plan is to run knights at BAO and then get back into admech before the socal open. I regard the following as the only serious competitive admech list that would have a fighting chance against every list in that meta list above.
STYGIES - 1x enginseer, 3x12 staffpriests, 3x1 stormbolter termites, 2x1 icarus onager with bolters
VALHALLA - 2x commanders with bolters, 3x10 guard with bolter sargs
BLANGELS - 2x smash captains, 1x mephiston, 3x5 bolter scouts with stormbolter
There are variations where you drop mephiston and try to add more guard shooting, but I think the existence of eldar and smite spam lists make such plans foolish. Meph gives you two solid denies so you have a chance against eldar spells and the icarus is the single most accurate anti flier weapon in the game (artemia hellhounds are also a possibility but they statistically don't do that much damage and the models are way to expensive). The list I put above relies on a devastating assault phase backed up by just enough anti flyer shooting to widdle down hemlocks. And yes, I do think 3x drill lists are tier 1. If only I had drills.
The way I see it, due to the existence of Castellans and the end of turn one deep strike, a ton of matchups have devolved into who shoots better first. I think GW is sort of designing themselves into a corner right now in terms of balancing turn one.
Anyhow, units with high model counts or models with high wound count have to be able to grievously hurt a Castellan or they will be deleted in the second turn. Given Mars Kastelans can hurt a Castellan just as much as it can hurt them, I think they're still in the running. However, small units or individual vehicles are much safer, as it makes the Castellan is a gross over-investment in killing power.
That being said, 3x Drill with 3x12 Fulgurite seems extreme, though I guess it makes sense that you want to run this as a Vanguard detachment. I was thinking 2x Drill at most; even then, you only get to fight twice with one of these units. Maybe bring two Vanguard units as well (5x and 5-7x with 2x Caliver); get within 12" and most enemies lose their -1 to hit?
I think the Guard detachment you bring would also need Mortars. That or you bring 10x Death Company with Bolters+Chainswords. Something to fight the few odd horde armies out there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/25 22:12:44
Elite - 192 12x Fulgurite Electro-Priest - Electroleech Stave
Fast Attack - 272 4x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
House Taranis Super-Heavy Detachment - 702
Lord of War - 702 1x Knight Gallant - Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Warlord: Ion Bulwark, Relic: Armour of the Sainted Ion
1x Armiger Helverin - 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber
1x Armiger Helverin - 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber
Total: 1997 points 16 CP (-2)
Basically, you have Guard and 2x Helverin to play the board and clear screens. Charge in with 2x Drill with 4x Caliver and 12x Fulgurite payloads (both are options that have historically suffered because they are too fragile without a transport), 4x Dragoons, and the Gallant.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But just to be clear, not necessarily recommending this list, though I think it would work.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/26 06:47:28
Suzuteo wrote: The meta is confusing right now. The lists to beat seem to be, in order of my opinion of their threat:
Drukhari Soup: DE + Craftworld psykers in support
Ynnari: Psykers, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers + DE vehicles
Imperium Soup: BA + Guard CP Battery w/ Hellhounds/Bullgryns/Basilisks + Castellan
1K Sons: 24" Smite spammm
Knights: Castellan, Questoris of choice, naked Gallant + Guard CP Battery + AdMech Battalion
Custodes Soup: Custodes Bikes + BA + Guard CP Battery
Death Guard: Balanced list built around Mortarion with some Nurgle Daemons
Nurgle Daemons: Daemon Prince spam and DG support
BA Deathball: Slamguinius, Lemartes, Sanguinor, Mephiston + Scouts + Sanguinary Guard, Death Company
Genestealers: Genestealers backed by Tyranids
Orks: Green Tide backed by Kannons
Basically, it's either flyers, assault armies, or both. Only exception seems to be 1K Sons, which is just the old Smite spam list on steroids. Really, anything that bypasses -1 to hit is strong right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyhow, I won't be participating in BAO, but here's an interesting idea:
Spoiler:
Blood Angels Battalion Detachment - 439
HQ - 274 1x Captain w/ Jump Pack - Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, Warlord Trait: Artisan of War (or Soulwarden), Relic: Angel's Wing, Death Visions of Sanguinius
1x Mephiston - Powers: Quickening, Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius
Heavy Support - 660 6x Kastelan Robot (Mars) - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 2000 points 18 CP (-2)
I've been attempting to reconcile the whole Stygies vs. Mars question for awhile now, but I think that we're well past the point where the question is meaningful because of how pure shooting is pretty much out these days. We also have to contend with a ridiculous high-low mix of threats. Castellans and Knights at the high end, Eldar and Guard at the low end. This list attempts to balance shooting and fighting elements. For the shooting, a Cawlstar, which can still delete units off the map like nothing else. For the fighting, Slamguinius and Mephiston backed by choppy Scouts (don't underestimate how dangerous Chainswords are with Red Thirst) and a Drill filled with Fulgurites. The AdMech Battalion is mixed, meaning we lose the dogmas, but we gain flexibility in stratagem usage; losing the extra Canticle is never a big deal, and the Drill is never outside of 12" anyway. Wrath of Mars, Clandestine Infiltration, and Steel Logic are all really good stratagems and well worth the trade-off.
This is the correct read of the meta. I regard MARS admech as dead. I ran some mathhammer on my castellan. With the strategem and assuming the admech player has pshroudpsalm and aegis protocols, the castellan will kill on average 4 robots a turn (3 if he can't get in melta range, which is still gg). Without aegis it is even worse. And assuming the admech player goes first, if the castellan player plays the 3++ strategem and the 5+++ versus mortals strategem, it is statistically almost impossible that even a 6 dakkabot volley kills the castellan. How can I take my main list to a tourney when the castellan exist? Assuming nothing is nerfed between now and socal open, my plan is to run knights at BAO and then get back into admech before the socal open. I regard the following as the only serious competitive admech list that would have a fighting chance against every list in that meta list above.
STYGIES - 1x enginseer, 3x12 staffpriests, 3x1 stormbolter termites, 2x1 icarus onager with bolters
VALHALLA - 2x commanders with bolters, 3x10 guard with bolter sargs
BLANGELS - 2x smash captains, 1x mephiston, 3x5 bolter scouts with stormbolter
There are variations where you drop mephiston and try to add more guard shooting, but I think the existence of eldar and smite spam lists make such plans foolish. Meph gives you two solid denies so you have a chance against eldar spells and the icarus is the single most accurate anti flier weapon in the game (artemia hellhounds are also a possibility but they statistically don't do that much damage and the models are way to expensive). The list I put above relies on a devastating assault phase backed up by just enough anti flyer shooting to widdle down hemlocks. And yes, I do think 3x drill lists are tier 1. If only I had drills.
So what’s your BAO list of knights looking like? Space for a Gallant in there?
I was crunching some math, and I discovered something interesting. With the Doctrina, a Lascannon Ballistarius outdamages an Icarus Crawler against Hemlock and Wave Serpent, whereas Icarus is strictly better against Battlesuits and Dark Eldar vehicles without -1 to hit. Autocannons have a niche in bringing down Dark Eldar vehicles with the -1 to hit. Of course, the Ironstriders are good against non-flying units too.
Here are the points per damage:
vs. Hemlock
Icarus: 49.69911504
Auto Balli: 50.625
*WINNER* Las Balli: 43.97142857
vs. Wave Serpent
Icarus: 48.4137931
Auto Balli: 90
*WINNER* Las Balli: 38.475
vs. Tau Commander
*WINNER* Icarus: 22.82926829
Auto Balli: 33.75
Las Balli: 29.31428571
vs. Razorwing/Venom
Icarus: 28.7704918
*WINNER* Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
vs. Ravager
*WINNER* Icarus: 23.01639344
Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
And yeah, these numbers also sort of underscore why I am not a big fan of Autocannons, on both Ironstriders and Helverins. They are way too niche.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/26 11:20:27
Suzuteo wrote: I was crunching some math, and I discovered something interesting. With the Doctrina, a Lascannon Ballistarius outdamages an Icarus Crawler against Hemlock and Wave Serpent, whereas Icarus is strictly better against Battlesuits and Dark Eldar vehicles without -1 to hit. Autocannons have a niche in bringing down Dark Eldar vehicles with the -1 to hit. Of course, the Ironstriders are good against non-flying units too.
Here are the points per damage:
vs. Hemlock
Icarus: 49.69911504
Auto Balli: 50.625
*WINNER* Las Balli: 43.97142857
vs. Wave Serpent
Icarus: 48.4137931
Auto Balli: 90
*WINNER* Las Balli: 38.475
vs. Tau Commander
*WINNER* Icarus: 22.82926829
Auto Balli: 33.75
Las Balli: 29.31428571
vs. Razorwing/Venom
Icarus: 28.7704918
*WINNER* Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
vs. Ravager
*WINNER* Icarus: 23.01639344
Auto Balli: 25.3125
Las Balli: 36.64285714
And yeah, these numbers also sort of underscore why I am not a big fan of Autocannons, on both Ironstriders and Helverins. They are way too niche.
Nearly half of the shots an icarus array puts out are an autocannon, the only difference is the +1 to Fly. Never mind for 20 pts more than an icarus onager you get 2 auto ballistarii!
