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 The Forgemaster wrote:
what is the general consensus of 6x ryzaphrons compared to 9x? is it worth it to go any higher than 6 in one unit?

IMO 9 od a better idea. Destroyers are soft, and you will lose them eventually. It's better to have a threshold of 3 before you start losing your firepower you've invested many points and cps in.

Eventually? After 1 turn vs someone good they are 1 shot wonders any more is luck so upping them isnt bad.

The limitation on 6 is only for agripinaa because thats the max they can strat back.

No. Because most enclosed ITC ruins don't fit 9x Ryzaphrons.

If you take a squad of 9 be sure to save 2 CP for your autopassing morale, since they only got a LD of 7 and you really don't wanna take morale casualties on such an expensive model.

 Suzuteo wrote:
No. Because most enclosed ITC ruins don't fit 9x Ryzaphrons.

I wouldn't worry about the enclosed ruins. In one of the recent Signals from the Frontline they've addressed that directly stating, that there still be very few of those. And people hinging their tactics on such terrain will get very disappointed on the LVO. ETC events have open terrains as well.

From my experience an effective shooting from Ryzaphrons is achievable with 4-5 models alive. And around 4-5 are being lost with the average first turn of shooting, assuming I've deployed to go second (so hidden behind a break somewhere). Hence why I take 9.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.

Which stratagem are you referring to? The Agripinaa one? It's pretty good. Use it on a unit of 6x Plasmaphrons for the best results. And Servitors are also not bad. However, I still think Ryzaphrons are where it is at. They are amazingly powerful once you stack all the stratagems.

I was referring to the Vigilus formation and the stratagem to sacrifice a servitor to revive a kataphron

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.

Which stratagem are you referring to? The Agripinaa one? It's pretty good. Use it on a unit of 6x Plasmaphrons for the best results. And Servitors are also not bad. However, I still think Ryzaphrons are where it is at. They are amazingly powerful once you stack all the stratagems.

I was referring to the Vigilus formation and the stratagem to sacrifice a servitor to revive a kataphron

It's a Warlord Trait, not a stratagem.

dadamowsky wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
No. Because most enclosed ITC ruins don't fit 9x Ryzaphrons.

I wouldn't worry about the enclosed ruins. In one of the recent Signals from the Frontline they've addressed that directly stating, that there still be very few of those. And people hinging their tactics on such terrain will get very disappointed on the LVO. ETC events have open terrains as well.

From my experience an effective shooting from Ryzaphrons is achievable with 4-5 models alive. And around 4-5 are being lost with the average first turn of shooting, assuming I've deployed to go second (so hidden behind a break somewhere). Hence why I take 9.

It's still very hard to hide nine. They are on 60mm bases. But sure. You definitely will get better economies of scale.

Uh... if your goal is to win through attrition, best you pick something that is more durable than a Kataphron.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.

Which stratagem are you referring to? The Agripinaa one? It's pretty good. Use it on a unit of 6x Plasmaphrons for the best results. And Servitors are also not bad. However, I still think Ryzaphrons are where it is at. They are amazingly powerful once you stack all the stratagems.

I was referring to the Vigilus formation and the stratagem to sacrifice a servitor to revive a kataphron

It's a WLT, though there is a stratagem to take it without making your TPD a Warlord. I think it is situationally good. Against something like Eldar, which is really good at erasing your units and then jumping out of LOS, I would not bother investing too much CP in Kataphrons. Instead, they should just be gun bait. Rely on your Crawlers, Dakkabots, and/or Knight to win.

I agree on Ryza Destroyers, 6 have done a lot of work for me but I think 9 draws a lot of attention. 6 maintains plenty of food and while leaving points for you to contribute to threat saturation.

 Suzuteo wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
No. Because most enclosed ITC ruins don't fit 9x Ryzaphrons.

I wouldn't worry about the enclosed ruins. In one of the recent Signals from the Frontline they've addressed that directly stating, that there still be very few of those. And people hinging their tactics on such terrain will get very disappointed on the LVO. ETC events have open terrains as well.

From my experience an effective shooting from Ryzaphrons is achievable with 4-5 models alive. And around 4-5 are being lost with the average first turn of shooting, assuming I've deployed to go second (so hidden behind a break somewhere). Hence why I take 9.

It's still very hard to hide nine. They are on 60mm bases. But sure. You definitely will get better economies of scale.

Uh... if your goal is to win through attrition, best you pick something that is more durable than a Kataphron.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So I'm plucking away at my Admech army and I'm wondering what the general consensus is on the servitor maniple and if it'd be worth it to take a min squad of servitors for the stratagem.

Which stratagem are you referring to? The Agripinaa one? It's pretty good. Use it on a unit of 6x Plasmaphrons for the best results. And Servitors are also not bad. However, I still think Ryzaphrons are where it is at. They are amazingly powerful once you stack all the stratagems.

I was referring to the Vigilus formation and the stratagem to sacrifice a servitor to revive a kataphron

It's a WLT, though there is a stratagem to take it without making your TPD a Warlord. I think it is situationally good. Against something like Eldar, which is really good at erasing your units and then jumping out of LOS, I would not bother investing too much CP in Kataphrons. Instead, they should just be gun bait. Rely on your Crawlers, Dakkabots, and/or Knight to win.

Its why ive started moving to Agripinaa breachers the extra survivability for their pts means your more likely to have that surviving modelto strat.

But Breachers damage output compared to Ryza Plasmaphrons is pretty underwhelming? ^^

 lash92 wrote:
But Breachers damage output compared to Ryza Plasmaphrons is pretty underwhelming? ^^

They are a fair bit cheaper and tougher on a point by point basis, 3 start at 90pts. I'm not sure if their damage output warrants it but if you take the formation youre paying a command point and 10pts for each T5 3+/5++ wound, I don't know much else as tough for that price.

They're probably good enough for casual play at least. The guns aren't bad but I don't think I'd expect much in melee.

It seems Breachers have the added benefit of actually being able to kill stuff in combat when units hit your lines to try and tie them up in combat.

6 is the hard limit for letting Agripinaa Tide of Traitors revive and redeploy Kataphrons, but more is fine for Ryza I think. Just, if you put too many there they’ll start attracting anti-tank fire and get devastated. Don’t wanna make them too obvious a target.

Agripinaa breachers are hilarious if you dump CP into them. Servitor Maniple them, give them a 5++, use Shroudspalm, put them on an objective and activate Acquisiton at All Costs, put a manipulus and dominus in range with Biosplicing and 4 servitors, and viola - 1+/4++, and if one dies you can revive and heal it (and if one gets hurt after one dies, you can heal it full, then revive, then heal that revived one full for another CP), and if too many die you can revive and redeploy the whole unit. Nasty survivability, but obviously loses some of the firepower of Ryza.

Pomguo wrote:
6 is the hard limit for letting Agripinaa Tide of Traitors revive and redeploy Kataphrons, but more is fine for Ryza I think. Just, if you put too many there they’ll start attracting anti-tank fire and get devastated. Don’t wanna make them too obvious a target.

Agripinaa breachers are hilarious if you dump CP into them. Servitor Maniple them, give them a 5++, use Shroudspalm, put them on an objective and activate Acquisiton at All Costs, put a manipulus and dominus in range with Biosplicing and 4 servitors, and viola - 1+/4++, and if one dies you can revive and heal it (and if one gets hurt after one dies, you can heal it full, then revive, then heal that revived one full for another CP), and if too many die you can revive and redeploy the whole unit. Nasty survivability, but obviously loses some of the firepower of Ryza.

Wonder how that would do if you spammed them. They're not expensive pts wise, even if your wallet would cry. A batallion of 30 or so breachers with Servitors and the biosplicer warlord would be an interesting thing to see on the table. Pop shroudpsalm and itd be like fighting terminators if terminators were actually tough. Then you take the eye relic so they can be more reliable against vehicles, and use the rest of your points on targets they can't handle, so Dakkastellans, Icarus Onagers, and taser Dragoons.

Bit one dimensional and slow, but I'm not sure the average person would have much that could chew through that much, especially with the ability to regenerate so many and keep them in the fight. Nice thing is that breachers are pretty cheap on eBay so you could probably get some good deals on them if you were crazy enough to try it.

I've been testing Breachers recently, in the Maniple. They are though. Enough to hold the objective and not crumble under Flayed Ones attack, supported by the fire of Immortals and the D6 shots DD3 barge. I've been running Stygies though, so no Agripinaa shenanigans, and the fire was way less efficient due to disabling the tesla.

However they do so little in return they have to be assisted. 4+ hitting kills their melee performance, and mere 2 shots kills their shooting. They weren't able to kill the Flayed and let's face it - it's not the most resistant unit.

They do have a weak spot vs monstrous creatures and infantry they are vehicle killers. So poor target for them. They do double damage vs vehicles. But im not expecting to fight a flayed one the way I am a knight. 6 breachers =4 destroyers

Your looking at an expectancy of 4.8w vs knights with reroll 1's to hit and w and assumeing a 4++. Or 6.4 with +1BS However because of the strat and the better save you will likely get it for 3 turns shooting at least (my playtest experience). 1cp per turn if you buff 3 cp to bring back for 14.4 or 19.2 across the game

Vs

4 plasma Destroyers assuming ryza same points and reroll1's to hit 10.9 or 15.7 with +2bs. At 4 cp for 1 turn shooting and they are then dead

Destroyers you can only buff 1 unit less save worse CC. Yet across the game I expect them to do similar or less net damage (but faster). Destroyers also only work in one unit soon as you swap to 2 they lose 30.5% of their damage output and breachers outshoot them. Breachers will also have taken more firepower away from your other units before they go your also paying a TPD tax that doesnt help the rest of your army

As an Idea

Army Faction: <Adeptus Mechanicus>
Command points 19

Brigade detatchment keyword <Agripinaa>
HQ1: Tech Priest Dominus (80) + Eradication Ray (10) + Macrostubber (2) = 92pts
Relic The Omniscient Mask
HQ2: Tech-Priest Enginseer = 30pts
HQ3: HQ2: Tech-Priest Enginseer = 30pts
Troop1: Skitarii Vanguard 1 Vanguard Alpha and 4 Skitarii Vanguard (5x8) = 40pts
Troop2: Skitarii Vanguard 1 Vanguard Alpha and 4 Skitarii Vanguard (5x8) = 40pts
Troop3: Skitarii Vanguard 1 Vanguard Alpha and 4 Skitarii Vanguard (5x8) = 40pts
Troop4: Skitarii Vanguard 1 Vanguard Alpha and 4 Skitarii Vanguard (5x8) = 40pts
Troop5: Skitarii Vanguard 1 Vanguard Alpha and 4 Skitarii Vanguard (5x8) = 40pts
Troop6: Skitarii Vanguard 1 Vanguard Alpha and 4 Skitarii Vanguard (5x8) = 40pts
Elite1: Secutarii Hoplite 1 Hoplite Alpha and 9 Secutarii Hoplites (10x9) +Enhanced data teather (5) =95pts
Elite 2: Servitors 4x Servitor (4x5) = 20pts
Elite 3: Servitors 4x Servitor (4x5) = 20pts
Fast 1: Ironstrider Ballistarii 1 Ironstrider Ballistarius (40) + Twin Cognis Autocannon (20) = 60pts
Fast 2: Ironstrider Ballistarii 1 Ironstrider Ballistarius (40) + Twin Cognis Autocannon (20) = 60pts
Fast 3: Ironstrider Ballistarii 1 Ironstrider Ballistarius (40) + Twin Cognis Lascannon (40) = 80pts
Heavy 1: Onager Dunecrawler (70) + 2x Cognis stubber (2 x 2) + Neutron Laser (45) = 119pts
Heavy 2: Onager Dunecrawler (70) + 2x Cognis stubber (2 x 2) + Neutron Laser (45) = 119pts
Heavy 3: Kastelan Robots 2 kastelan Robots (2 x 65) 6x Heavy Phosphor blaster (6x15) = 220pts
Detatchment total =1185pts

Battalion detatchment keyword <Adeptus Mechanicus> Specialist detatchment-Servitor Maniple
HQ3: Tech Priest Dominus (80) + Eradication Ray (10) + Phosphor Serpenta (4) <Agripinaa>= 94pts Warlord Monitor Malevolus
HQ2: Tech-Priest Enginseer <Lucius>= 30pts
Troop 1: Kataphron Breachers 6 kataphron breachers (6x20) 6x Heavy Arc Rifle (6x6) 6x Arc Claw (6x4) <Agripinaa> =180pts
Troop 2: Kataphron Breachers 3 kataphron breachers (3x20) 3x Heavy Arc Rifle (3x6) 3x Arc Claw (3x4) <Agripinaa> =90pts
Troop 3: Kataphron destroyers 5 kataphron destroyers(5x15) 5x Plasma Culvarin (5x27) (4x6) Phosphor Blaster 1x Cognis Flamer (1x7) <Ryza> =241pts
Elite1: Sicarian Infiltrators: 1 Infiltrator princeps 9 Sicarian Infiltrators (10x12) Flechette Blaster (10x2) and Taser Goads (10x4) <Mars>= 180pts
Detatchment total =815pts

Army Total 2000/2000pts

If you're falling back on your Breachers to do CC, you are in a lot of trouble. My biggest issue with them is that they don't have a clearly defined role. If they had DS (Holy Retributor, anyone?), then they could act as super TEQs, but as it stands, they are a low mobility, non-flying Haywire shooter with Power Fists.

Agripinaa is actually becoming more appealing. Out of the three pure Forge World detachment options, I am coming to like them the most. (The other two being Stygies and Graia.) Agripinaa Brigades can have Dominus (Biosplicing), Manipulus, Enginseer (Eye), 3x Icarus Crawlers, 3x Servitors, 3x LasBallistarii, and a 6x Plasmaphron. It's like the scuttling horrors list.

Anyhow, I like 6 Ryza Destroyers. 4 Destroyers is the next step down, and I would only take it for "fitting into ruins" purposes.

I don't see how you're ignoring WoM + Kastelans + Cawl, its one of the strongest offensive combos in the game, especially with the prevalence of cover and infantry swarms.

Armies taking tons of infantry is going to start getting more and more prevalent and Kastelans excel at killing them. The bigger the unit, the harder it is to hide.

Because for that to work you dont need a pure Mars Detachment, since their Dogma isn´t that useful. You could take Cawl + Bots and then make your troops Graia for psychic defense and if you have Dragoons make them Stygies for infiltrating etc.

That plus the fact, that Cawlstar is quite easy to counter by either killing the robots (this meta is very unfavorable for a T7- W6 vehicles - al it takes to take a model down are 3 Lootas shots passing), engaging them in combat, or by outscoring the list. Plus we've been playing with it for a year already and it becomes... Boring?

dadamowsky wrote:
That plus the fact, that Cawlstar is quite easy to counter by either killing the robots (this meta is very unfavorable for a T7- W6 vehicles - al it takes to take a model down are 3 Lootas shots passing), engaging them in combat, or by outscoring the list. Plus we've been playing with it for a year already and it becomes... Boring?

Couldn´t agree more, it´s so one dimensional!

 ultimentra wrote:
I don't see how you're ignoring WoM + Kastelans + Cawl, its one of the strongest offensive combos in the game, especially with the prevalence of cover and infantry swarms.

Armies taking tons of infantry is going to start getting more and more prevalent and Kastelans excel at killing them. The bigger the unit, the harder it is to hide.

It's well established as not working.

Sure its a strong combo but its easily countered and very expensive and when ypu look at tourney results it consistently doesnt take them down. Also as a core list it didn't improve much in CA18 or vigilous and a lot of our units did.

Yes the neta change may help but we don't need wom to kill orks and many of our units vanguard corpuscarii infiltrators are all decent vs horde not just bots

That made me thinking though... what would make Cawlstar work in your opinion? IMO the Datasmiths changing the protocols the same freaking turn, instead of giving freebies to the opponent, would be a huge improvement. Or at least one of the following: the stratagem for ignoring the heavy penalty working for a whole unit, a better/longer buff from the Manipulus, or more durable (or cheaper, but it won't beat the IG anyway) troop choice.

 ultimentra wrote:
I don't see how you're ignoring WoM + Kastelans + Cawl, its one of the strongest offensive combos in the game, especially with the prevalence of cover and infantry swarms.

Armies taking tons of infantry is going to start getting more and more prevalent and Kastelans excel at killing them. The bigger the unit, the harder it is to hide.

Yup. In the worst case scenario, you gun down their infantry and have your infantry grab objectives.

 lash92 wrote:
Because for that to work you dont need a pure Mars Detachment, since their Dogma isn´t that useful. You could take Cawl + Bots and then make your troops Graia for psychic defense and if you have Dragoons make them Stygies for infiltrating etc.

This. I prefer a mixed detachment myself.

Though statistically speaking, Graia is the most winning Forgeworld. (The Rusty 17 is almost always Graia.)

dadamowsky wrote:
That plus the fact, that Cawlstar is quite easy to counter by either killing the robots (this meta is very unfavorable for a T7- W6 vehicles - al it takes to take a model down are 3 Lootas shots passing), engaging them in combat, or by outscoring the list. Plus we've been playing with it for a year already and it becomes... Boring?

Dakkabots require more skill to pilot than most of the lists out there. A lot of things can go wrong. But it definitely is the strongest pure AdMech option. Anyhow, I find this makes for a more interesting game.

Of course, if you are going to a tourney, I recommend against building your list around a Cawlstar. Build it around a Styrix or Kastelan. Makes the list more idiot proof. Not to mention how much faster it will play.

 Suzuteo wrote:
If you're falling back on your Breachers to do CC, you are in a lot of trouble. My biggest issue with them is that they don't have a clearly defined role. If they had DS (Holy Retributor, anyone?), then they could act as super TEQs, but as it stands, they are a low mobility, non-flying Haywire shooter with Power Fists.

Agripinaa is actually becoming more appealing. Out of the three pure Forge World detachment options, I am coming to like them the most. (The other two being Stygies and Graia.) Agripinaa Brigades can have Dominus (Biosplicing), Manipulus, Enginseer (Eye), 3x Icarus Crawlers, 3x Servitors, 3x LasBallistarii, and a 6x Plasmaphron. It's like the scuttling horrors list.

Anyhow, I like 6 Ryza Destroyers. 4 Destroyers is the next step down, and I would only take it for "fitting into ruins" purposes.

Graia seems strong for the rusty 17 the denial option and survivability are great for supporting knights. It seems strong for improving infantry survivability but not buffing vehicles as much so your looking at a battalion not a brigade.

Stygies is the opposit its great for your backfield artillery but by the time your vanguard/ electropriest/infiltrator is in range its not gaining a benefit. While the strat can help in some deployments if you deploy 24" away its not enough even dragoons will not reliably hit their target. So it went from the best to a 50/50

Aggripinaa boosts every shoooting unit vs 1 vehicle a turn and provides significant benefit vs assault armies given the number of units we have with a high volume of firepower and the strat is really strong but hasn't received the testing it deserved due to kataphrons veing to costly pre CA18


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dadamowsky wrote:
That made me thinking though... what would make Cawlstar work in your opinion? IMO the stratagem for ignoring the heavy penalty working for a whole unit, a better/longer buff from the Manipulus and more durable (or cheaper) troop choice would be a good start. The Datasmiths changing the protocols the same freaking turn, instead of giving freebies to the opponent, would be a huge improvement.

60-75pt dakkabots with 25% to 33% more you'd have the volume to survive and be competative however they wont do this so its a lost cause

@sutzeo rusty 17 might be the best statistically but its not really an admech list in the way the 32 isnt really a guard list. If you look at the lists rather than the headline figure they are not admech primarys

U02dah4 wrote:


60-75pt dakkabots with 25% to 33% more you'd have the volume to survive and be competative however they wont do this so its a lost cause

That's definetely never going to happen. I'm surprised Cawl went down so much in points anyway.

I agree which is why as a tactic it will not be a tourney winner.

U02dah4 wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:
That made me thinking though... what would make Cawlstar work in your opinion? IMO the stratagem for ignoring the heavy penalty working for a whole unit, a better/longer buff from the Manipulus and more durable (or cheaper) troop choice would be a good start. The Datasmiths changing the protocols the same freaking turn, instead of giving freebies to the opponent, would be a huge improvement.

60-75pt dakkabots with 25% to 33% more you'd have the volume to survive and be competative however they wont do this so its a lost cause

@sutzeo rusty 17 might be the best statistically but its not really an admech list in the way the 32 isnt really a guard list. If you look at the lists rather than the headline figure they are not admech primarys

What? At 110 points, Dakkabots are extremely well-priced.

Sure. I was joking. Graia is statistically the best Forge World because it has the most useful stratagem for Enginseers and Rangers to pair with Knights. (I really do think AdMech is all about stratagem use.)

Are so how would you make cawl bots competative because their is a wealth of evidence they don't win. Which is not the same thing as saying they are bad. I certainly will take two bots but thats it.