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Hulksmash wrote: So I ran this at LVO (Spoilered due to size). I was one of the 5-0's going into round 6 and the only one not rocking a knight. Had a small guard detachment because I thought boxes were going to be more prevalent so I wanted mortars. I'm shifting to 100% Admech for my next few events.
-Heavy Support-
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS:16 (15 after special detachment)
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000
POWER LEVEL: 165
I played 2 Orks, 2 Eldar, a Deathwatch/Sisters/Dark Angels, and a 2 Repressor Gulli List (the list I lost to, he who went first wins type of game). I think Breachers make the list work full stop. They were my allstars every single game. When they weren't popping Battlewagons they were killing boyz or shining spears in CC. When you can't get to the shooting portion of the army because they're screened by a breachers unit the list fuctions really well.
I think Admech are in an excellent place and don't NEED knights and that once the Castellan and Ynarri get nerfed we could be looking at being one of the toughest armies in the game.
Congrats. I saw your list and was pleasantly surprised to see a no-Knight AdMech going 5-0. Surprised you went with Mars instead of Mixed detachment too.
I honestly am not sold on Breachers. Then again, I am not sold on Terminators or Custodes either, but some people seem to be able to use them to great effect. Could be a playstyle thing. I use Catachans for my screen, as they pair well with Vanguard in CC. I think in general though, one principle remains: Your screen must, must, MUST be able to fight well.
Totally agree that we are probably one of the T1 shooting armies right now. We have really ridiculously point efficient units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/13 23:33:02
Might be a meta thing but basic guard infantry just disappears in a standard game at most events. Armies being designed to kill 120 Orks don't even blink at 60 guardsman. It's why I tend to use the rangers as my primary infantry screen supported by the final shooting screen of my breachers. 60 rangers, while more expensive, are basically t3 marines with Cawl snagging cover every single turn for the brigade. A 7pt 3+ save, 3+BS, shooting a 30" St4 rapid fire gun w/ap-1 on 6's that rerolls all failed hits is amazing. Oh, and they ignore cover....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/13 23:43:39
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
Hulksmash wrote: So I ran this at LVO (Spoilered due to size). I was one of the 5-0's going into round 6 and the only one not rocking a knight. Had a small guard detachment because I thought boxes were going to be more prevalent so I wanted mortars. I'm shifting to 100% Admech for my next few events.
-Heavy Support-
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS:16 (15 after special detachment)
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000
POWER LEVEL: 165
I played 2 Orks, 2 Eldar, a Deathwatch/Sisters/Dark Angels, and a 2 Repressor Gulli List (the list I lost to, he who went first wins type of game). I think Breachers make the list work full stop. They were my allstars every single game. When they weren't popping Battlewagons they were killing boyz or shining spears in CC. When you can't get to the shooting portion of the army because they're screened by a breachers unit the list fuctions really well.
I think Admech are in an excellent place and don't NEED knights and that once the Castellan and Ynarri get nerfed we could be looking at being one of the toughest armies in the game.
Very cool, now I am looking for some Breacher conversions that are not so expensive, because I loke the sleek mysterious look of admech.
Regarding your list I would love to hear some thoughts on your list, for example why didnt you go for 2 battalions, why you prefer rangers and omnispexes so much, how did you use your servitors, did you give the5++ only against high ap or melee?, why didnt you use a 10 man infiltrator unit for WoM
Hulksmash wrote: Might be a meta thing but basic guard infantry just disappears in a standard game at most events. Armies being designed to kill 120 Orks don't even blink at 60 guardsman. It's why I tend to use the rangers as my primary infantry screen supported by the final shooting screen of my breachers. 60 rangers, while more expensive, are basically t3 marines with Cawl snagging cover every single turn for the brigade. A 7pt 3+ save, 3+BS, shooting a 30" St4 rapid fire gun w/ap-1 on 6's that rerolls all failed hits is amazing. Oh, and they ignore cover....
Not really. Most of the time, these Guard are HODLing in ruins. I've never ended a game without any Guardsmen left alive.
Skitarii don't move 12"+2D6 every turn. They also can't fight, which may present a huge problem against GSC and such.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 00:05:04
Hulksmash wrote: Might be a meta thing but basic guard infantry just disappears in a standard game at most events. Armies being designed to kill 120 Orks don't even blink at 60 guardsman. It's why I tend to use the rangers as my primary infantry screen supported by the final shooting screen of my breachers. 60 rangers, while more expensive, are basically t3 marines with Cawl snagging cover every single turn for the brigade. A 7pt 3+ save, 3+BS, shooting a 30" St4 rapid fire gun w/ap-1 on 6's that rerolls all failed hits is amazing. Oh, and they ignore cover....
Not really. Most of the time, these Guard are HODLing in ruins. I've never ended a game without any Guardsmen left alive.
Skitarii don't move 12"+2D6 every turn. They also can't fight, which may present a huge problem against GSC and such.
I still wonder why than can move so darn fast. Back then I never wanted guardsmen to be 5ppm per model, but looking at orders they are way too efficient and reliable for 4points.
Hulksmash wrote: So I ran this at LVO (Spoilered due to size). I was one of the 5-0's going into round 6 and the only one not rocking a knight. Had a small guard detachment because I thought boxes were going to be more prevalent so I wanted mortars. I'm shifting to 100% Admech for my next few events.
-Heavy Support-
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
Heavy Weapons Squad [3PL, 33pts] x3, 3xMortars
TOTAL COMMAND POINTS:16 (15 after special detachment)
TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000
POWER LEVEL: 165
I played 2 Orks, 2 Eldar, a Deathwatch/Sisters/Dark Angels, and a 2 Repressor Gulli List (the list I lost to, he who went first wins type of game). I think Breachers make the list work full stop. They were my allstars every single game. When they weren't popping Battlewagons they were killing boyz or shining spears in CC. When you can't get to the shooting portion of the army because they're screened by a breachers unit the list fuctions really well.
I think Admech are in an excellent place and don't NEED knights and that once the Castellan and Ynarri get nerfed we could be looking at being one of the toughest armies in the game.
Very cool, now I am looking for some Breacher conversions that are not so expensive, because I loke the sleek mysterious look of admech.
Regarding your list I would love to hear some thoughts on your list, for example why didnt you go for 2 battalions, why you prefer rangers and omnispexes so much, how did you use your servitors, did you give the5++ only against high ap or melee?, why didnt you use a 10 man infiltrator unit for WoM
I didn't go 2 battalions for a few reasons;
1) Extra CP 2) Every unit in the Battalion is useful
3) I wanted double chances for cover for the majority of my army
4) I wanted rerolls from Cawl
I prefer rangers because for 7pts you get a 3+BS, 3+ Save (after cover), 30" range bolter that goes neg 1 when you roll a 6 to wound. They're an amazing troop choice especially when you can get it to full rerolls from Cawl. Add in less than a point per model to ignore cover and you generally outshoot every other troop choice. Servitors dual serve as counter attack and to be used to replace dead breachers. I used the 5++ every game because I like being able to go 2+/4++ on an objective (or 1+/4++ if I have cover). As for the infiltrators I found I was using them poorly when I ran a 10 man vs. the 5 man. The 5 man is amazing for putting down single small units or characters. 10 generally feels like overkill. Plus I'm generally using WoM on my bots.
Suzuteo wrote:
Hulksmash wrote: Might be a meta thing but basic guard infantry just disappears in a standard game at most events. Armies being designed to kill 120 Orks don't even blink at 60 guardsman. It's why I tend to use the rangers as my primary infantry screen supported by the final shooting screen of my breachers. 60 rangers, while more expensive, are basically t3 marines with Cawl snagging cover every single turn for the brigade. A 7pt 3+ save, 3+BS, shooting a 30" St4 rapid fire gun w/ap-1 on 6's that rerolls all failed hits is amazing. Oh, and they ignore cover....
Not really. Most of the time, these Guard are HODLing in ruins. I've never ended a game without any Guardsmen left alive.
Skitarii don't move 12"+2D6 every turn. They also can't fight, which may present a huge problem against GSC and such.
I've rarely finished a game with a guardsman alive. In ITC they're just meat for butchers bill and reaping. Moving isn't helpful if you're all dead. Also if you think that 1-2 extra attacks and st4 is going to make your catachans be able to fight off GSC I don't know what to tell you. Also, unlike IG Infantry you might get to swing with 1-2 dudes before you die. Guard just die before they can swing. Just my experience but it's why quite a few people dropped IG.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
Hulksmash wrote: I've rarely finished a game with a guardsman alive. In ITC they're just meat for butchers bill and reaping. Moving isn't helpful if you're all dead. Also if you think that 1-2 extra attacks and st4 is going to make your catachans be able to fight off GSC I don't know what to tell you. Also, unlike IG Infantry you might get to swing with 1-2 dudes before you die. Guard just die before they can swing. Just my experience but it's why quite a few people dropped IG.
Well, sorry to say, you're probably doing something wrong with the Guardsmen. Astra Militarum isn't at top tables with 80 Guardsmen for the heck of it. Hell, we saw Brandon Grant HODLing his Guardsmen to eke out the win in the finals at LVO.
What exactly is it that makes you think Vanguard+Catachans can't beat Genestealers? First, you get 3 Guardsmen for each Genestealer. That reason alone should suffice, but let's go on. Second, you get 32 S4 attacks against T3 after the -1T aura, which essentially reverses the quality advantage that Genestealers have. Finally, if you are bringing individual Mortars, Genestealers lose their fourth attack, putting the math clearly in the Guardsmen's favor. Genestealers run very fast. That is it. Catachans can and do screen them.
Quite a few people dropped Guard? Do we live on the same planet? I've watched the number of people take Catachan grow probably ten-fold in the past few months. They are a popular and amazingly well-performing sub-faction: https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results
LexOdin9 wrote: Gotta agree with above poster, now that people have warmed up to the meta, everyone knows how to counter the Loyal 32.
I'm not talking about Loyal 32 though. I'm talking about bringing 50-80 bodies backed by officers. No one has figured out how to "counter" that. Otherwise, they wouldn't be winning championships left and right for the past half year. (Same thing for Soulburst. Nobody can "counter" a totally non-interactive element like that.)
I mean, seriously, I actually would be the first to agree that it is a huge problem. Guardsmen are way too efficient and versatile. But let's not downplay how good they are. They are the best unit in the game right now. Castellans actually don't win those games. The Guardsmen do. The Castellan merely fills the only hole that Guardsmen cannot, and they mutually support one another.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/14 08:18:05
Despite the guard hate I can't think of a game ive lost to them but then i mostly have played horde - guard arn't that tough and there are plenty of answers.
The win rate for guard isnt great untill you add a castellan then its solid so you should point the fingur at the problematic unit.
Guard are no where near the most powerful unit in the game and yes their use is declineing because you are seeing more admech and sob in that 32 role.
An admech brigade with 6 vanguard squads assuming dominous the vanguard kill 22 guardsmen now two cawl bots no bs buff shooty mode 15 dead 4 stubbers on my onagers 4 dead. So just useing my weaker firing thats 41 dead now factor in moral and we have 5 dead squads or near enough with little effort and 1 round of shooting.
Im not saying guard arnt good but they need atleast 160+ infantry models before they become tough to wipe. However even then t2 im dropping an infiltrator squad to wipe 2 squads in shooting and possibly charge a 3rd so no guard arnt scary.
Sure they can hide out of line of sight but if you want we can spend 60 pts on 3 servitor squads and hide them in 3 ruins.
And yes as someone pointed out guard featured at the top tables well done but the unbeatable guardsmen also featured on many of the lower tables where they were in fact soundly beaten.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2019/02/14 09:48:16
Well, yeah. Like I said, the Castellan is strong when combined with the mutually supporting Guardsmen. But you seriously can't think of a game where you lost to Imperium Soup? It's such an incredibly strong list!
6x10 Guardsmen with RF+FRFSRF kill 26.67 out of 6x5 Vanguard with Shroudpsalm...
But Guardsmen aren't good because they are the most durable or most deadly units. They are good because they are extremely mobile and flexible--but above all, CHEAP. You can do a ton of different things with them, but the most important use is the cheapest source of reliable ObSec in the meta, which translates into VP.
I'm sure Alex Harrison is so glad to hear that Guardsmen are easy to wipe? From personal experience, I have made up for bad shooting rounds with Guardsmen more times than I could count.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 09:29:51
Oh i have lost to knights and i have certainly lost to aeldarii and once to deathwatch but i have never lost to guardsmen (although i have run them every tourney this year untill CA18).
Well thats shooting maths they are easy to wipe provided you list for them.
As to obsec yes i agree its strong at holding the objectives on there side of the board but thats a stalemate if they cant take yours and despite speed they cant walk through your units so provided you have enough. Models yourself they arn't getting to yours quickly.
As to maths of 60 guardsmen firing at vanguard looks impressive but how do you intend to get all 60 within 12" of vanguard without first takeing casualties.
Assuming you go first (i'll give you that advantage but a lot of the time you wont) and assuming we are 24" apart. You can move move move for 12"+2d6 but now your out in the open anddon't get to fire dakka dakka 10 guardsmen live to frfsrf next turn 3.2 dead vanguard
You can advance and order to fire any way 6+d6" no frfsrf and not within 12" so 1/4 success rate 5 dead vanguard through shroudspalm if you can bring them all to bear of course dakkadakka 15 guardsmen live
You can just walk and frfsrf 10 dead vanguard but you have to get all within 24" but then your loseing 40+ back becauause your now in full range and if you were positioned to see them they are positioned to see you.
Yes when you are optimised you are very dangerous but when you have that many models you rarely are.
Also 60 guardsmen frfsrf 37 shots x 6 units x0.5 bs x0.5 to wound x0.33 armour save = 18.5 dead vanguard not 26.666 even with harker or yarick your only getting to 21.6 so your overestimateing them a fair bit
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/14 10:18:25
I pretty much never have all 60 of my Guardsmen together. And they spend way more time advancing or fighting than shooting. Some units never get a single shot off at all, in fact.
Your scenario is not very realistic because there is no board for us to refer to. In any actual game, I would have to consider where I deploy my Guardsmen (not in the same place) and what I would use them for. Rushing across 24" of open field to shoot at Vanguard is probably not the first thing, simply because I have so many options thanks to orders. In contrast, that might literally be the only thing the Vanguard are good for because they have cover in the open and have Assault weapons.
But consider a common scenario. Directly in between the Vanguard and my Guardsmen is an objective with some ruin walls around it. Whoever holds this objective scores the "hold more" VP and the scenario VP. I MMM 20 Guardsmen there and form a line along the far wall of the ruin. On your turn, you cannot reach the objective at all, nor can you move through my units to contest the object, nor can you shoot through the wall at my Vanguard. And if you charge, you're going to get handled by Catachans. But even if it were totally in the open, I can form three ranks and deny you the space the stand by the objective, even if you rolled a 12" advance and managed to kill enough Guardsmen to gain ObSec. (These sorts of things are what convinced me to switch to Catachans.)
I accidentally used S4. It's 20 dead Vanguard. Still, it's lots of dice.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/14 11:07:38
Unnatural not really half of games you start 24" apart and as you say if your moving not firing your not doing the damage you stated you would proving my point that it was unrealistic to have 60 guardsmen all frfsrf
As to your scenario it sounds like quite a rare scenario to me. Most of the time either that objective was in your deployment zone to begin with or if I placed it as an admech player its out in the open I have cover for 2-3 turns if you want my objective I can target you. So stale mate you hold yours i hold mine
If its literally centre of the board e.g relic how big is the ruin if you cant fit all at ground level im firing at you from the side someones sticking out of. If you can only get 10 in thats clearable and yes you could have a swarm round the outside of the ruin but they are targetable (sure I wont clear them in a turn but on the second im approaching the ruin as per the maths earlier.
if its the last turn why have I left it unsecure for so long. That would having nothing to do with the guardsmen and everything to do with my lack of board control
but yes if it was a large ruin and we have gf los blocking and if you have been able to flood it because i've left it unsecure it will be tricky to deal with but their are 5 other objectives In a real game i probably ignore the one thats tough to clear and straken can only be at 1 objective.
Unless its the relic in which case breachers/hoplites/infiltrators are my CC answers) However if I left you to get in that position at t5 I have probably lost by that point.
So 6 months ago my 60 IG would live through the game. Now it just doesn't happen. My army is a bit more shooty but it dropped 100+ ork/gretchin in a single turn (would have been more but terrain). With bolters getting better it's only going to get worse for IG.
Also I was running math on Acolytes (7ppm) not genestealers. And the comparison was naked acolytes with none of their buffs. It gets wildly insanely in the Acolytes favor once they start buffing.
Also in reference to Brandon he's an exception, not a rule. He also played on a box heavy table where planes couldn't get his infantry which isn't common anywhere but LVO. No offense to Brandon because he's an incredible player but reality is seeing the upper end of the meta move away from guard brigades and it's likely to get worse as GSC get rolling and people gear up to deal with more 160+ model armies.
I get that you love your catachans. I'm not saying they are going 100% away or that they are a terrible choice. I'm saying that the upper end of the meta is gearing up to kill 100+ t4 models over 1-2 turns so running just 60 catachans is going to be a less than optimal choice and it's going to get worse.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
i think its all a matter of play style. I personally use Rangers over Vanguard and i have been using Guard so I can agree with points both you (Suzuteo) and U02dah4 (omg im agreeing with you on something!? ) are making. Guardsmen have a more rounded tool box of tactics they can pick from. Whilst i have never been impressed with a Guardsmen's damage output (funnily they kill Terminators every once in a while haha but its never something meaningful). Too me you are paying for there wound, save and board control that they provide which is currently uncontested in the Imperium as a whole.
Combat wise a Vanguard is equal to a Catachan Guardsmen excluding character buffs, in a vacuum the Vanguards shooting output is better and he is tougher, but he is also double the cost.
So I dont think either is better than the other, if your going offensive then Vanguard are better, if you are going defensive Guard are better. Obviously the line gets blurred a bit depending on the rest of the army composition.
But the point im trying to make is that as with what Hulksmash said, we dont really need Guardsmen anymore. Yeah cheap mortars and infantry is sweet, you arent gimping yourself by not taking them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/14 16:20:56
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
1. More Psychic defence.
2. Transports - we make all the rhinos in the imperium, how hard would it be to hold a few back for our use...
3. more options in all of the force org slots.
4. Fires of Cyraxis...
I think we might be waiting quite a while for points 1 and 4 :(
but i'm with you on the transport. I am also very reluctant to buy forgeworld.
My local store bans it and people have a stigma about it but mainly if we swap to 9th edition we might go a period where rules are not allowed for those models and I might not get to use them for a while.
Ideasweasel wrote: I think we might be waiting quite a while for points 1 and 4 :(
but i'm with you on the transport. I am also very reluctant to buy forgeworld.
My local store bans it and people have a stigma about it but mainly if we swap to 9th edition we might go a period where rules are not allowed for those models and I might not get to use them for a while.
Fires of Cyraxus has been passed onto Citadel now from Forgeworld as with all 40k related books so hopefully we should get it a lot sooner than that way. I do wish we get some sort of Psyker, there was Technomancy in 6th and 7th and it would be awesome if it returned and it was us who had access to it.I still dont hold any hope for GW transports for us as stupid as that sounds, they very much want us to be a walking Faction which is sad. Maybe with our next codex we will get one or in a new box set like Shadowspear and so forth, but we were already in Forgebane so that wont be very likely. I feel like we need a type of Flyer (there is mentions of them in the fluff), Tech Auxilia, Hyspasists, Herakli, Praetorians, Cataphractii, Balisteria, Protectors, Tribunes, Sagitarii, Sub Dominas and Alpha Primus. These are all units that are from the lore they could add to our roster not including the many Tech Priest types and there own forces from the Reductor, Secutor, Myrmidex and Cybernetica sects.
Counting the 4 possible new units SM will get in the new set, they will have a grand total of 64 units (excluding named characters and forgeworld), we currently have 17 (not including Knights). Whilst SM are an older Faction model wise, just from Primaris alone they have gotten 21 units alone (if i am not mistaken), so if they put even half the effort into new units for us that would nearly cover those units i stated above. You want your GEQ suddenly we have Tech Auxilia and Hyspasists, you want squads will all special weapons Sagitarii fill that role, a fast moving cavalry unit thats where Herakli come in, want some Centurion style infantry oh look you have Praetorians, command squads thats Protectors, dreadnoughts/terminator style units say hello to Cataphractii and finally your heavy weapon squads thats Balisteria. We would then have our Skitarii HQs we have been long waiting for with the Sub Domina/Tribune/Axiarch/Primus.
Really there is enough that they could flesh us out with (or should i say AUGMENT huehue), but knowing GW they will create a unit that doesnt exist in previous fluff and fails to perform well like some of our units now... (Ruststalkers, how i miss you.... good in 7th.. crap now. I have 15 of the buggers!!!).
My wishlist would be in this order:
Skitarii Leader
Flyer
Archmagos
Different classes of Tech Priest available to us (Including Psykers, there is mention of them in the Lathe Worlds and in the Inquisitor RPG)
More Heavy Support options (Different versions of Kastelans more inline with the 30k variants)
More Fast Attack options (Kind of like Vorax and Thallax or just use Herakli)
Additional Troop/Elite style Skitarii
Transports (much like a Onager in light of the AT-TE from the Clone Wars, that thing is SEXY)
More named character from different Forgeworlds
I have gotten quite used to not relying on Transports nowadays with Skitarii so i view them as a little priority
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 00:10:11
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
U02dah4 wrote: Unnatural not really half of games you start 24" apart and as you say if your moving not firing your not doing the damage you stated you would proving my point that it was unrealistic to have 60 guardsmen all frfsrf
As to your scenario it sounds like quite a rare scenario to me. Most of the time either that objective was in your deployment zone to begin with or if I placed it as an admech player its out in the open I have cover for 2-3 turns if you want my objective I can target you. So stale mate you hold yours i hold mine
If its literally centre of the board e.g relic how big is the ruin if you cant fit all at ground level im firing at you from the side someones sticking out of. If you can only get 10 in thats clearable and yes you could have a swarm round the outside of the ruin but they are targetable (sure I wont clear them in a turn but on the second im approaching the ruin as per the maths earlier.
if its the last turn why have I left it unsecure for so long. That would having nothing to do with the guardsmen and everything to do with my lack of board control
but yes if it was a large ruin and we have gf los blocking and if you have been able to flood it because i've left it unsecure it will be tricky to deal with but their are 5 other objectives In a real game i probably ignore the one thats tough to clear and straken can only be at 1 objective.
Unless its the relic in which case breachers/hoplites/infiltrators are my CC answers) However if I left you to get in that position at t5 I have probably lost by that point.
Let's get this straight. You were the one who talked about straight-up mass shooting. Hell, you were the one saying people need to bring 160+ Guardsmen. And when I pointed out the math does not actually favor Skitarii, you were the one who started making range an issue.
Quite rare? Probably 90%+ of ITC games end up with at least one majority objective somewhere along the center line of the table. Which is the only reason why talking about 24" makes any sense at all.
It doesn't really matter if there are ruins or not. It can be totally in the open. I would still sacrifice a unit of Guardsmen to score the "hold more" VP. And I can do it with 10 Guardsmen each turn for the next four turns if need be. Running them from LOS blocker to the center of the board is trivial thanks to MMM.
I am getting annoyed by the constant shifting of goalposts here. I guarantee you 100% that you won't be taking that center objective (assuming it exists, which it usually does) from my Guardsmen with your Skitarii until the bottom of round 3. Which means you will be down 3 VP, WHICH IS WHY ADMECH LOSES SO DAMN MUCH. If you want to talk about how your firebase can waste a unit of Guardsmen each turn, well, I can talk about how some Castellan is going to make sure your firebase never makes it past round 1. The argument can go in circles forever, but the numbers don't lie. Alloying AdMech with Guard is the way to go.
Hulksmash wrote: So 6 months ago my 60 IG would live through the game. Now it just doesn't happen. My army is a bit more shooty but it dropped 100+ ork/gretchin in a single turn (would have been more but terrain). With bolters getting better it's only going to get worse for IG.
Also I was running math on Acolytes (7ppm) not genestealers. And the comparison was naked acolytes with none of their buffs. It gets wildly insanely in the Acolytes favor once they start buffing.
Also in reference to Brandon he's an exception, not a rule. He also played on a box heavy table where planes couldn't get his infantry which isn't common anywhere but LVO. No offense to Brandon because he's an incredible player but reality is seeing the upper end of the meta move away from guard brigades and it's likely to get worse as GSC get rolling and people gear up to deal with more 160+ model armies.
I get that you love your catachans. I'm not saying they are going 100% away or that they are a terrible choice. I'm saying that the upper end of the meta is gearing up to kill 100+ t4 models over 1-2 turns so running just 60 catachans is going to be a less than optimal choice and it's going to get worse.
Oh. I was talking about literal Genestealers. The ones in Tyranid lists that get slingshotted into your face on turn one. If you're trying to fend them off with Skitarii, they are a speedbump at best. At least Catachans can countercharge.
Honestly, it's hard to get a sense of what you're seeing if you're talking about a random RTT in the middle of nowhere. But the standard in ITC has been toward more terrain. BAO, SCO, and LVO all used magic bunkers, and they all featured similar OOB terrain sets. It's not going away. In fact, it's only going to become more common. (Everything is becoming standard in competitive, and I love it.)
I don't love my Catachans. They're actually just converted Skitarii. I would drop them in an instant if Skitarii became viable, but they aren't. Outside of perhaps Stygies Rangers (very good point efficiency), Skitarii are nowhere close to as good as Catachans.
1. More Psychic defence.
2. Transports - we make all the rhinos in the imperium, how hard would it be to hold a few back for our use...
3. more options in all of the force org slots.
4. Fires of Cyraxis...
1. I am a fan of taking Graia in mixed detachments specifically for the Abhor, but I agree that a lack of Deny is a problem.
2. Seriously... though if they gave us a stratagem for a Scout move or redploy, I would be happy as a clam.
3&4. Yeah. As it stands, half of our army has to be from the Guard or Knight codex by necessity.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/02/15 02:27:34
I don't think we're going to move each other. I'm actually cutting pretty much all the guard (may keep the mortars) from my list but would happily run pure admech. I would appreciate it though if you didn't make assumptions about where or how I play. I play on LVO terrain and Nova terrain (which is actually heavier than terrain at LVO this year) at those actual events. I generally play pretty well and finish high. I was also the 3rd highest admech player in ITC this year and the only one in the top 3 without a knight at LVO.
I'm firmly of the opinion that Admech are in a place where they really can be run pure.
My experience, as singular as it is, is that Rangers are probably THE best infantry in the game in a Mars detachment. The reasons aren't simple point efficiency though.
The amount and type of firepower that needs to be directed to kill the infantry is of a different standard than guard screens. Additionally they outrange anything that isn't a fire warrior when it comes to cheap infantry. Ignoring cover means they win every shoot out outside of 12" and they normally get the first punch in.
But keep pushing the only way to play is with Guard and Knights. See what that gets you once GSC are fully rolling in the meta too
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 04:13:37
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
@suzeto I've never said guard are bad just that they are dealable with and they are. Yes on net a vanguard is slightly worse than a guardsmen but 6 vanguard only represnt 12% of my army where as for guard 16.5% of yours for 6 guard squads + 3 officers more if you want straken or a priest. (I wouldnt run 6 orders but you have in your explanation)
I also didn't say you needed to bring that many guardsmen I said thats the point they become hard to dead with.
When you make assumptions like i wont be able to get to a middle objective in 3 turns it just doesn't match with my playtesting. Last night i left 100 genestealers dead by t3 now admittedly they are t4 5++ and largely ignore moral but it wasnt enough to stop me taking the mid t3.
As to missions well i tend to play etc style missions with itc terrain. However i cant recall a lot of games with terrain dense enough where you could effectively hide 60 guardsmen out of LOS while advanceing down the field.
Not when i advance a wave and most of my units can shoot the length of the board.
As to the castellan no it cant obliterate an entire firebase in a single round .we have to many targets. Yes its broken but if it was that broken every player would run one.
@hulksmash i still prefer vanguard to rangers- at short and medium (up to 24") vanguard outperform rangers and thats what i want from my frontline. The extra damage on 6's makes them surprisingly flexible on mass vs vehicles and the -1t really supports breachers /hoplites in CC. Beyond 27" yes rangers are better but we have other units for that role but by the time you get to that range your damage output is low. (In a 17 the argument is different and as objective holders fine) but pure admech has other options for that role.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 09:14:48
All 3 of you make valid points but it still all comes down to personal play style. Take for example me and U02dah4, hes an Agripinaa lover and im a Ryza lover, we both have success with our own armies. One may be more powerful than the other on paper but its the general that determines how strong they are.
From my own experiences Guard Infantry are a lot easier to play than Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard due to their cost, quantity and the orders that automatically go off. But for me that bored the hell out of me and like Hulksmash i have slowly phased my Guard out of my Admech.
Since CA18 and Vigilus Defiant ive replaced my Guardsmen with Kataphrons, not once in the whole 7th and 8th have i used Destroyers before, not ever. Now i am. They literally DESTROY anything you point them at, they will earn back there points and more so. Does that make my list weaker than the Guardsmen variant? No not really, its a side grade.
With my Ryzatrons i have reliably one shot Castellans, multiple vehicles/squads off the board whilst also being "durable". I am loving them, reminds me of having my old triple caliver Vanguard back with preferred enemy and tankhunter/monsterhunter. ITS GLORIOUS.
But that doesnt mean U02dah4's Grav Destroyers are bad, its just a different style of play. I am actually pleasantly surprised with Hulksmash having success with pure Admech, thats what i want OUR FACTION to be. 8th ed so far has been a rollercoaster for me, with more bad than good. Admech started off good then took a nose dive, we were then less Mech and more Flesh with Guard pulling the weight for us, now i can see my bionics again, the scrap code is gone and maybe there is a light at the end of the cogitator!?
We no longer have to be shoe horned into allying (i like it when you said alloying haha, so fitting!) in Guard and i really hope GW nails down hard on Soup. I play pure Deldar with no soup and they are still amazing, i play pure Orkz and get the shaft... (thats an Ork Codex problem....). Allies should supplement the army, not override it and provide massive benefits thats there is no reason not to Soup.
What they did to GSC is kinda interesting and i hope that gets pushed to other races as well. And what Hulksmash says about the meta shifting to GSC is most likely true, around where i am people have been popping up and buying them left, right and centre and i have been out of stock as well! Blobs of 20 Acolytes (with hand flamers), bikes vomiting out det bombs, freight train aberrants, masses of neophytes, there own (pre-nerfed) AoV. These are all problems the meta will have to face now.
And as Admech we still have the guns to deal with this, and as crap as the Manipulus maybe, he may be required to boost our Cognis Flamer over watch now. That is something im slowly leaning towards.
At the end of the day dont try force a certain army style on someone else, your Guard may rock for you, but his Rangers or Vanguard may outclass Guard in his hands. Ive seen plenty of non meta lists pull the pants off of the current meta lists, it even happened to me and cost me first place at an event when a sneaky slaanesh list went for my booty (literally) and knocked me off to 4th place (4-1.... as pure Admech).
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
I really feel it's an apples and oranges situation. I've played guard infantry heavy since 5th and skitarii heavy admech since the start of 8th. They really just don't do the exact same job, even when you think they would like trying to compare a FRFSRF guardsman to a Vanguard.
Guardsmen are more about objectives and screening. They have firepower and combat uses, but even when heavily kitted out for these roles their main jobs will still be holding objectives and screening more powerful units. I would never rely on a single squad to kill much of anything in this game, you really need two at minimum and an officer to ensure they do anything noteworthy. If an army knows how to snipe your characters, you are seriously at risk of losing a major chunk of their effectiveness.
Meanwhile I feel you can take skitarii units purely, or even mostly kitted out for shooting as their main role and still make them useful for screening. Skitarii, even Metallica vanguard, will never match the mobility of guard. However, their firepower stays way more effective on the move than guard could ever hope to be. And if they're in cover or have shroudpsalm, they are twice as durable to typical anti chaff weapons like storm bolters as a guardsman would be. Granted you can get 2 guardsmen per skitarii but you can only cram so many men into one area. And if you think about the mandatory officers you know the guard player must run to make his men effective, really the skitarii are more efficient since they really don't care if they have tech-priests nearby and technically cost less for what they're doing.
There's a lot I'm not getting into there of course, and there are solid arguments for both approaches. Personally I think a combo of skitarii and guardsmen is probably the best option in a vacuum, but the combination of regiment/Forgeworld abilities really makes it a tough call to make. It also doesn't help that all of Admech's troops are genuinely useful in at least some context. Some prefer certain FW's over others but at the end of the day they can all be used. Rangers are dirt cheap ranged infantry that are an efficient choice for arquebuses. Vanguard are surprisingly punchy and good walking firepower as well as a carrier for plasma and melee support. Destroyers, well, destroy things with scary efficiency, even non Ryza. And Breachers are starting to show promise as dirt cheap body guard units, tough with a good save and multiple abilities to bring back dead models.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
@deffreka at my next tourney in running a second mixed admech detatchment with a unit of 5 ryzaphrones and 10 mars infilitrators to supplement my agripinaa brigade
So you might have made your case
As to cognis flamer overwatch dont feel its worth it mostly because unless your multi destroyering they tend to be focussed to heavily and id rather just screen them with agripinaa vanguard if I want overwatch
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/15 15:43:56
U02dah4 wrote: @deffreka at my next tourney in running a second mixed admech detatchment with a unit of 5 ryzaphrones and 10 mars infilitrators to supplement my agripinaa brigade
So you might have made your case
As to cognis flamer overwatch dont feel its worth it mostly because unless your multi destroyering they tend to be focussed to heavily and id rather just screen them with agripinaa vanguard if I want overwatch
U02dah4 wrote: @deffreka at my next tourney in running a second mixed admech detatchment with a unit of 5 ryzaphrones and 10 mars infilitrators to supplement my agripinaa brigade
So you might have made your case
As to cognis flamer overwatch dont feel its worth it mostly because unless your multi destroyering they tend to be focussed to heavily and id rather just screen them with agripinaa vanguard if I want overwatch
Hahaha whats happened to you?!?!
those new Admech units look sexy.....
Is that a grav and hydraulic claw on the servo? can see them going up in points now...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like a eradication pistol and an advanced omnispex, heres hoping hes a Skitarii Tribune or Tech Priest Leximechanic
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/15 16:11:42
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
I'd like to thank everyone contributing to this thread for all the insightful information you provide to less experienced players like my self
On a second note, me and 3 friends are throwing a small 4-player 2000pts tournament soon using all the beta rules and CA MoW missions. I would be very thankful if I could get some help with list building from you guys. The level of competition wont be that high since its more of a social event but I still want my list to have some teeth
I will be facing Stealer-heavy Tyranids, Tau and Orks. The only thing that is set from my point is that I will be playing mono-faction Lucius and have thus put together the following list as a first draft:
Spoiler:
13CP BASE
Battalion Servitor Maniple (-1CP)
Tech Priest Dominus
Volkite Blaster, Macro Stubber, Omnissiant Axe , The Solar Flare, [Master of Biosplicing]
Tech Priest Engiseer
Laspistol, Omnissiant Axe, Servo Arm
The idea is to have some strong beta-strike potential with DS-ing Servitors and Robots and combine stratagems for some extra damage. Also the fist bots can be played in a more aggressive way to gain some ground. Im open to any suggestions on how to improve on this list as long as it sticks to being all Lucius.
Id swap the two vanguard squads for two of the rangers squads swap the dominous to the other detatchment along with the dragoons make the first ryza make the second stygies or mars but thats just me - id consider dropping the cognis flamers for phosphor to upgrade a ranger squad to a vanguard
Im not that keen on master of biosplicing if your wanting res go agripinaa and sacrifice the ryza damage boost.
Praise the Omnissiah
