Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I guess we have to agree to disagree. I can't see even the RAW interpretation, just nothing but a borderline rules lawyering here.

Then you can't read the RAW is black and white in this case

It is indeed. Although, as I said, we will not agree on the topic

Seen most updated ad mech lists doing extremley good on tournaments all over.

My feedback . The new kataphron spam lists play v v well.

I use 18+ kataprhons in various combinations this week and ibhave to say they perfom super good.

From league games to extensive etc rule sets frok friendly to 3 rounds/ day i have to say i got results .

I play ad mech and assasins. Kataprhons and snipers Mars .

Hope you all enjoy yours as well.

As i said earlier there is still an issue when you remove the mortars / guard from your list . The los shooting. And it needs to be adressed .
Cause honestly nothing can stand against ad mech kataprhon list but you can loose from los

RAW absolutely lets you Dagger teleport Ryzaphrons, that much isn’t up for debate. Just read it. As for RAI... it’s been left unchanged for like two years, it’s past the stage of slip-up. Fine to play it RAW until they do ever eventually fix it.

I do need to test it out some time.

Maybe a stupid question but why do you need to teleport Kataphrons in the first place? Don’t they have range and move n shoot?

 KiloFiX wrote:
Maybe a stupid question but why do you need to teleport Kataphrons in the first place? Don’t they have range and move n shoot?

Mainly to ensure they don't get blown off the board before they have a chance to fire if you're not going first.

I really don't see the hemming and hawing over the Dagger. It's a useful tool and a good example of AdMech+Guard synergy.

RAW, it's clearly legal. The Dagger is explicitly limited by the <REGIMENT> keyword, which the Officer of the Fleet does not have; it also requires an Officer keyword per the FAQ, which the Officer of the Fleet does have. This has survived multiple FAQs.

RAI, it's clearly legal. Imperium has many stacking bonuses that go outside of their codexes. See Vexilla Defensor or the Implacable Determination WLT for other examples.

As for TOs, I have never had any problems with this, both in casual and competitive games. Mostly because it's hard to argue with the RAW. Officer of the Fleet was explicitly added to the codex with these characteristics.

Finally, in terms of rules lawyering, this is very mild. In 7E, you could Scout move buildings and then use the Escape Hatch to launch units into your enemy deployment or hitch rides on Flesh Tearer Drop Pods.

I forgot about scouting buildings!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I forgot about scouting buildings!

I never considered it as "scouting buildings"...more that the enemy brought the wrong maps.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I forgot about scouting buildings!

I never considered it as "scouting buildings"...more that the enemy brought the wrong maps.

That was my justification. Amazing what loopholes you can find though with a little bit of effort.

Anyone else think Imperial Bunkers could be a decent option for Plasmaphrons? Obviously not as good as the Dagger but perhaps a serviceable replacement for those running pure Ad Mech? It's got the bonus of being useable turn 1 and adds to target saturation somewhat. They've got good stats for a fair price point in my opinion.

I would much rather than Kataphrons could be transported by a Termite Assault Drill, but what can you do.

Improved survivability but no reroll 1's no strats

Kataphrons are pretty meh without strategems, auras and canticals, none of which they can get inside of a bunker. You can't even really overheat, for fear of killing them without reroll 1s.

I guess its not bad for keeping them alive turn 1, but I only really see this as an issue if you are up against indirect fire. As infantry they can move through walls, so there is no reason to not hide them out of LOS.

I mean mostly to jump out of, rather than fire out of. Though of course you've always got the option to fire out of it if it seems wise. It's mostly just an added layer of protection for them if you don't go first, for not very many points.

I understand that it's not entirely clear what exactly you are able to use from a units datasheet while they're embarked. Is the consensus that Abilities on a units datasheet can't be used at all while embarked? I was hoping that there was perhaps an argument that Canticles could be benefitted from. What about Forgeworld traits? For example in the Orks tactica thread people seem to be expecting Tankbustas to be re-rolling against vehicles, for Bad Moons to be re-rolling 1's and Deffskulls to be re-rolling a to-hit, to-wound and damage roll.

You're probably better off using the termite drill if its just for turn 1 protection, as it's mobile and has weapons on it. Will be more useful.

Ryzan Kataphron Destroyers - I’m thinking of pulling the trigger on these for my next purchase.

Just to confirm. The vigilus formation is essential for Noospheric Mind Lock? Dagger of tsu +Ryza plasma stratagem.

Anything other tricks for these bad boys worth I’m missing?

Have you folks been bringing servitors to try and help bring them back or just sticking to damage?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Ryzan Kataphron Destroyers - I’m thinking of pulling the trigger on these for my next purchase.

Just to confirm. The vigilus formation is essential for Noospheric Mind Lock? Dagger of tsu +Ryza plasma stratagem.

Anything other tricks for these bad boys worth I’m missing?

Have you folks been bringing servitors to try and help bring them back or just sticking to damage?

if by 'protector' you mean the doctrina imperative then i want to point out it specifically targets skitarii models, which kataphrons are not.

but yes, ryzaphrons + servitor maniple == Noospheric mind lock + plasma specialist to see everythign melt, you can add a pair of kastellan for the elimination volley if you really want to burn through your CP. End result with kastellan is Kataphron hitting on 2's, wounding T7 on 2 and T8 on 3, AP -3, 3 dmg.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Ryzan Kataphron Destroyers - I’m thinking of pulling the trigger on these for my next purchase.

Just to confirm. The vigilus formation is essential for Noospheric Mind Lock? Dagger of tsu +Ryza plasma stratagem.

Anything other tricks for these bad boys worth I’m missing?

Have you folks been bringing servitors to try and help bring them back or just sticking to damage?

Yup the vigilus detachment is needed for the +1 to hit (you could go elimination volley instead but that requires 2CP & Kastellans as well).

There is the option to take the Tech-Priest Manipulus from the Kill Team boxed set - he will boos the ranges on the kataphrons if you think it is needed - +6" for the plasma and the flamers +3" - allowing you to neqarly always fire overwatch with your flamers and hit units even further away with the plasma.

I occasionally bring servitors, it depends if I have points available or not once everything else is added into my list. I have found you are only going to bring back one maybe two Kataphrons with them - more than that lost means the squad is nearly gone and you can only bring one back per turn anyway. maybe if they were agrippina instead, 6x servitors, heal & bring back with dominus & warlord trait, then if they get low (1-2 models) bring them all back with the agrippina strat instead.

Edit: if you are playing on a sector mechanicus board with some plasma lines, for an additional 1CP (strat from CA 2018) an additional +1 strength and damage - 4 damage per shot...

 Rex2490 wrote:
You're probably better off using the termite drill if its just for turn 1 protection, as it's mobile and has weapons on it. Will be more useful.

Termites can't transport any Kataphron models sadly, or it would be my go-to.

Thanks for the advice folks. You guys sticking flamers on your plasmaphrons?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Thanks for the advice folks. You guys sticking flamers on your plasmaphrons?

I did, mainly for the overwatch bonuses - with all of the plasma damage you do not really need the phosphor blasters. as mentioned above the Manipulus gives this a bit of a boost.

 The Forgemaster wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Thanks for the advice folks. You guys sticking flamers on your plasmaphrons?

I did, mainly for the overwatch bonuses - with all of the plasma damage you do not really need the phosphor blasters. as mentioned above the Manipulus gives this a bit of a boost.

if you run flamers you NEED the manipulus, otherwise you cant overwatch out of deepstrike

 Suzuteo wrote:
I really don't see the hemming and hawing over the Dagger. It's a useful tool and a good example of AdMech+Guard synergy.

RAW, it's clearly legal. The Dagger is explicitly limited by the <REGIMENT> keyword, which the Officer of the Fleet does not have; it also requires an Officer keyword per the FAQ, which the Officer of the Fleet does have. This has survived multiple FAQs.

RAI, it's clearly legal. Imperium has many stacking bonuses that go outside of their codexes. See Vexilla Defensor or the Implacable Determination WLT for other examples.

As for TOs, I have never had any problems with this, both in casual and competitive games. Mostly because it's hard to argue with the RAW. Officer of the Fleet was explicitly added to the codex with these characteristics.

Finally, in terms of rules lawyering, this is very mild. In 7E, you could Scout move buildings and then use the Escape Hatch to launch units into your enemy deployment or hitch rides on Flesh Tearer Drop Pods.

I really don't think it's RAI. They wouldn't go through the trouble of specifying regiment so much if they weren't hell-bent on it being regiment specific. Then you throw in you're not even using it to outflank IG, your outflanking admech. RAW maybe you have an argument but I'd imagine the only reason GW never bothered to faq it is because it's not really become a thing until recently. It's probably so far out of left field it's never even crossed their mind that they need to specify it. That "the infantry unit must have the same regiment keyword as the bearer, if they have one" is clearly meant to be for Auxilia units like ogryn or stormtroopers, since the guard codex has many units that lack a regiment trait but can be taken alongside your army anyways.

I mean using your logic, I can outflank anything imperium that's infantry with it. Custodes, sisters, marines, etc.

And if we're discussing RAI, that means does it make sense lore wise. And why on Earth would an officer of the fleet be outflanking with a bunch of Kataphrons in a battle? Now if you were using an IG Techpriest, I could see that argument. He can get the relic same as an Officer of the Fleet and he's admech, even able to take the same FW. Plus he has no regiment trait, but he's still admech for the most part. If you were running him with the dagger, especially with the same Forgeworld, I'd be pretty stumped there. At least that wouldn't feel out of left field like the officer of the fleet does.

I get this is a tournament thread so lore really isn't important, but what I'm trying to say is the moment this becomes a well known thing, GW will take it away, mark my words. Essentially, yeah, it's a good trick, but I highly doubt it's RAI and not only could see TO's ruling against it but GW FAQing it if someone were to bring it to their attention. So don't get used to it I guess is what I'm saying. We have to remember that GW really doesn't care about this game competitively like the players do. It doesn't matter if you have a clever way to do something, if it doesn't match how they feel the game should be played they'll Nerf it, see rule of 3 and a ton of other beta rules.

Ynnari - how do you tech priests do against them usually?

I struggle. Any advice welcome

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Ryzan Kataphron Destroyers - I’m thinking of pulling the trigger on these for my next purchase.

Just to confirm. The vigilus formation is essential for Noospheric Mind Lock? Dagger of tsu +Ryza plasma stratagem.

Anything other tricks for these bad boys worth I’m missing?

Have you folks been bringing servitors to try and help bring them back or just sticking to damage?

So when your opponent deep strikes close to your Ryzaphrons, you can do: Infoslave Skull + Plasma Specialists. (And before people complain, yes, this is legal, both RAW and RAI, and the TOs for SCO, BAO, and LVO have all chimed in and agreed. Because if "as if" != "is", then factions like Ynarri and Chaos Daemons immediately lose a ton of their power. For example, stuff like fly would no longer operate in the psychic phase.)

I think the Servitors are a waste for the Destroyers. They MIGHT be okay for non-Agripinaa Breachers. I invite those with more experience with Breachers chime in.

The aervitors i like if your filling an elite slot cheaply in a brigade they are not really worth it in the maniple its just too costly for too little reward

As far as I've tested, the resurrection for a Serwitor is very niche - as Kataphrons get focused until killed entirely. Just as any major threat in 40k.

As for the Ynnari - the only sensible solution I've found so far is to bunker in some sort of a ruin and wait until Spears come to you. If the Ynnari didn't take any LoS-free shooting, and your squishy targets are safe from soulburst activation, he basically lost his turn. If he won't come to you, he will eventually lose a winning matchup. If he did, there's a chance you can pop Spears or cripple them severly. This is however very terrain dependant strategy - a bad table can shut you down, just as usual.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/13/chaos-space-marines-focus-the-lord-discordant/

Damn that character gives me admech vibes from looks and rules, meanwhile we get the manipulus lackluster aura and equipment

 0XFallen wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/13/chaos-space-marines-focus-the-lord-discordant/

Damn that character gives me admech vibes from looks and rules, meanwhile we get the manipulus lackluster aura and equipment

I dont get the hate for the manipulus that a lot of people seem to be expressing, hes overcosted but his datasheet isnt bad, i've had tons of fun playing him in different lists. Warhammer isnt all about competitive.