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Anyone here using dragoons still? They have been my mvps 3 games in a row recently

I don't like bringing them because they're so difficult to transport

Love dragoons but I believe lists must have purpose thus giving advantage to unit abilities .

I play dragoons only as stygies with a knight warden or crusader onagers etc. Using the -1 to get hit on troops and dragoons but it's not winning everything more of fluffier games. Even 6 dragoons -2 hit die easy when you face real melee or serious players in shooting.

Just for comparison reason for 60 points not 68 I take 2 breachers . In my Mars list. Mars combo Robots and destroyers always looking for screen.

For 30-60 point you get two breachers with 6W so same T5 almost comparable and ofc 4 arc shots and 6-8 melee att.
The big difference is breachers usually on 2+ armor 4-5 invu while dragoons if enemy comes closer or has ignore -1 they die.

Sure I like them but e talking about utility we talking about list building plans etc.
Breachers work super in a full infantry list. Almost perfect. And don't forget they tend to push forward can but range or movement from manipulus and can use the aquisition at all costs superb! Can use viguous warlord trait to replenish their ranks as destroyers can you can use dominus with then with hermeticon for rerroling melee miss? Also +1 on shooting . You can use infoslave on destroyers with ppasma and flamers manipulus gives 11" flamer . Cognis flamer overwatch . Etc etc. All units are obj sec? All can shoot and fight it's practically

A classic Cawl star robots destroyers with finally good screen? Assassin's flavor for all that you need.

Ofc there is a list with 3 battalions one guard for 18 cp working better with 12-15 breachers and some rangers . But I wanted to play pure ad mech for various reasons . I know with guard can go even higher and you need the cp but I LL remain ad mech as possible.
I'm also testing with 3 battalions the cp are important and we need them .

Dragoons, if you do use them, are to be used as a distraction for something with similar toughness and weaknesses. They can be countered pretty hard by Orks, Eldar, and even SW.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Dragoons, if you do use them, are to be used as a distraction for something with similar toughness and weaknesses. They can be countered pretty hard by Orks, Eldar, and even SW.

I'm testing Dragoons with Culexus and results are promising. Culexus' fight last solves the one problem Dragoons had - they have to hit first. One of the matches was quite amusing as the 90 Boyz were running away from the 2x4 Dragoons and 2 Culexus (one per each Dragoon unit), and giving my Kastelans a room to breathe. The tricky part are the maneuvers, as Culexus cant keep up with the Dragoons at full speed (not without the 4+ Advance roll at least), and he can't heroically intervene after DS.

I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.

dadamowsky wrote:
I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.

It is due to the detachment rules.

your detachments are still battleforged with the "Adeptus Mechanicus" keyword, however you have the <Forge World> keywords "Mars" "Graia" etc. within that detachment as well. as you do not have all of the same <Forge World> keyword creating your detachment it states on the dogma page that you do not gain a dogma for that detachment.

Stratagems only require keywords like "Graia Infantry" to affect units. all adeptus mechanicus stratagems are unlocked if you take any AdMech detachments (from memory, it should say this above the stratagems somewhere). meaning you can use any stratagem if you have the right keywords.

It's at the start of the stratagem section:
It says something like you need an Adeptus Mechanicus detachment.

dadamowsky wrote:
I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.

Its not in the codex, its in one of the million different sources for rules that GW released, im sad to say that i couldnt find the original source and that i have to point you to 1d4chan (ughh) https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics(8E)#Mix_and_Match_Detachments

VladimirHerzog wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:
I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.

Its not in the codex, its in one of the million different sources for rules that GW released, im sad to say that i couldnt find the original source and that i have to point you to 1d4chan (ughh) https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics(8E)#Mix_and_Match_Detachments

With a help on FB but I found the answer - it's not written directly in the codex, however the Forgeworld dogmas rule on p.94 claim a dogmato be a "bonus" you receive when all the units in the detachment share the same keyword. So, by default, your army is expected (or allowed) to run in a <mixed> state.

dadamowsky wrote:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:
I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.

Its not in the codex, its in one of the million different sources for rules that GW released, im sad to say that i couldnt find the original source and that i have to point you to 1d4chan (ughh) https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics(8E)#Mix_and_Match_Detachments

With a help on FB but I found the answer - it's not written directly in the codex, however the Forgeworld dogmas rule on p.94 claim a dogmato be a "bonus" you receive when all the units in the detachment share the same keyword. So, by default, your army is expected (or allowed) to run in a <mixed> state.

yeah thats the explanation.

had someone argue that this wasnt allowed because <keywords> are picked for each detachments. in fact they are picked for each unit so you can "soup" in a monodex army.

Does a dragoon get +3" to movement with the manipulus and the add 2 dice to advance stratagem?

 0XFallen wrote:
Does a dragoon get +3" to movement with the manipulus and the add 2 dice to advance stratagem?

Yes but...
1. Manipulus adds 1" to move, 1" to advance and 1" to charge
2. Dragoons can use Dunestriders
3. HOWEVER there's absolutely no way to advance and charge with Dragoons. So in reality Manipulus can add up to 2"; and to use Dunestrider, Dragoons would have to give up charging this turn

 The Forgemaster wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:
I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.

It is due to the detachment rules.

your detachments are still battleforged with the "Adeptus Mechanicus" keyword, however you have the <Forge World> keywords "Mars" "Graia" etc. within that detachment as well. as you do not have all of the same <Forge World> keyword creating your detachment it states on the dogma page that you do not gain a dogma for that detachment.

Stratagems only require keywords like "Graia Infantry" to affect units. all adeptus mechanicus stratagems are unlocked if you take any AdMech detachments (from memory, it should say this above the stratagems somewhere). meaning you can use any stratagem if you have the right keywords.

Does this mean we can now use an Auxilliary Detachment of Mars Infiltrators for Wrath of Mars? Aux Detach does not strip a unit of its keyword, and the strategems should be unlocked by the rest of your army being Battle Forged anyway.

I broswed over 200 pages prior to this and some people were arguing you could, others says you could not due to the wording at the top of the Stratagems page. From what I understand you cannot unlock stratagems if your army only included Aux Detachments, so for example an Aux Detachment of Guardsman with no corresponding BattleForged AstraM full detachments.

Is there a definitive answer on this now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Are ruststalkers really that bad? I love their models but all i hear is badness around them. What about the infiltrator half of them?

the problem with the ruststalkers is that they need to walk to their target and are quite squishy T3 4+/6++ W2/3 is easily blasted away. To add to this, they have 0 ranged capabilities, with the infiltrators, even if you miss your charge after deepstriking them , you at least got a ton of small arms fire, ruststalkers dont have that option. Even when they do reach their target, you really only look for 6's to wound on your Chordclaws to deal lots of mortal wounds. Unless you go for ryza, there is no way to reroll wounds. they simply lack the versatility of infiltrators, they play best as a counterchage unit. but if you need a countercharge unit theres better choices (electro-priests)

I was looking again at Rustalkers. They can easily get and make use of 3+ save whereas Shroudpsalm is useless for Priests. For less points you get double the wounds (points per wound < vanguard) an effective 3+ save and 8 inch movement. The range of mortal wounds they can put out is pretty large, I've seen them down Mortarion in counter charge.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Are ruststalkers really that bad? I love their models but all i hear is badness around them. What about the infiltrator half of them?

the problem with the ruststalkers is that they need to walk to their target and are quite squishy T3 4+/6++ W2/3 is easily blasted away. To add to this, they have 0 ranged capabilities, with the infiltrators, even if you miss your charge after deepstriking them , you at least got a ton of small arms fire, ruststalkers dont have that option. Even when they do reach their target, you really only look for 6's to wound on your Chordclaws to deal lots of mortal wounds. Unless you go for ryza, there is no way to reroll wounds. they simply lack the versatility of infiltrators, they play best as a counterchage unit. but if you need a countercharge unit theres better choices (electro-priests)

I was looking again at Rustalkers. They can easily get and make use of 3+ save whereas Shroudpsalm is useless for Priests. For less points you get double the wounds (points per wound < vanguard) an effective 3+ save and 8 inch movement. The range of mortal wounds they can put out is pretty large, I've seen them down Mortarion in counter charge.

 Gareth_Evans wrote:

 The Forgemaster wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:
I'm browsing the codex trying to find the <mixed> Forgeworld rules (losing dogma but unlocking stratagem), but I fail. Where's that form of fielding described? I embraced that's a pretty neat trick, but I can't find on what basis are we allowed to do it.

It is due to the detachment rules.

your detachments are still battleforged with the "Adeptus Mechanicus" keyword, however you have the <Forge World> keywords "Mars" "Graia" etc. within that detachment as well. as you do not have all of the same <Forge World> keyword creating your detachment it states on the dogma page that you do not gain a dogma for that detachment.

Stratagems only require keywords like "Graia Infantry" to affect units. all adeptus mechanicus stratagems are unlocked if you take any AdMech detachments (from memory, it should say this above the stratagems somewhere). meaning you can use any stratagem if you have the right keywords.

Does this mean we can now use an Auxilliary Detachment of Mars Infiltrators for Wrath of Mars? Aux Detach does not strip a unit of its keyword, and the strategems should be unlocked by the rest of your army being Battle Forged anyway.

I broswed over 200 pages prior to this and some people were arguing you could, others says you could not due to the wording at the top of the Stratagems page. From what I understand you cannot unlock stratagems if your army only included Aux Detachments, so for example an Aux Detachment of Guardsman with no corresponding BattleForged AstraM full detachments.

Is there a definitive answer on this now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Are ruststalkers really that bad? I love their models but all i hear is badness around them. What about the infiltrator half of them?

the problem with the ruststalkers is that they need to walk to their target and are quite squishy T3 4+/6++ W2/3 is easily blasted away. To add to this, they have 0 ranged capabilities, with the infiltrators, even if you miss your charge after deepstriking them , you at least got a ton of small arms fire, ruststalkers dont have that option. Even when they do reach their target, you really only look for 6's to wound on your Chordclaws to deal lots of mortal wounds. Unless you go for ryza, there is no way to reroll wounds. they simply lack the versatility of infiltrators, they play best as a counterchage unit. but if you need a countercharge unit theres better choices (electro-priests)

I was looking again at Rustalkers. They can easily get and make use of 3+ save whereas Shroudpsalm is useless for Priests. For less points you get double the wounds (points per wound < vanguard) an effective 3+ save and 8 inch movement. The range of mortal wounds they can put out is pretty large, I've seen them down Mortarion in counter charge.

you can mix forge worlds in any detachment, you dont have to take an Aux detachment for it to work.

sure, ruststalkers have a potential output thats decent, the problem is that even with 2 wounds, they are squishy as hell, fulgurites can easily get a 3++ (or 2++) for the whole game. having smaller bases is also good for the fulgurites since it means they can consolidate/pile in deeper in the enemy ranks once they get in combat. ruststalkers are also 100% chordclaw dependent. The priests having a -2ap to their non 6 wounds mean that some damage will go through. The chordclaw is basically a worse version of the electroleech staves in all aspects (less Strength, and AP, same damage output potential) with fulgurites you get 2 attacks per model that are Chordclaw ++ while with ruststalkers you are stuck with the razor for 2 of your 3 attacks

I tried Ruststalkers in a Drill and... while they can nuke a lot harder than Fulgurites, they literary die the very next turn. 3+ is nothing on a T3 model - you will eat up way to many wounds to save the unit. Heck, Fulgurites even with 3++ melts aways under the weight of dice.

dadamowsky wrote:
I tried Ruststalkers in a Drill and... while they can nuke a lot harder than Fulgurites, they literary die the very next turn. 3+ is nothing on a T3 model - you will eat up way to many wounds to save the unit. Heck, Fulgurites even with 3++ melts aways under the weight of dice.

The fulgurites have a bigger max damage output (6MW vs 5MW) and on average will deal more damage because they have decent strength and AP. Ruststalkers really need something to help them because they are not really useable at the moment

@Vlad.

Thanks for the feedback. I know that you can mix any forgeworld in a detachment. The reason I want the Mars Infilatrators in an Aux is that I want the rest of the army to gain the benefit of -1 to hit Stygies. If I mix, I won't get this. So the Infiltrators *need* to be in another detach. So can I still play WoM on them?

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
@Vlad.

Thanks for the feedback. I know that you can mix any forgeworld in a detachment. The reason I want the Mars Infilatrators in an Aux is that I want the rest of the army to gain the benefit of -1 to hit Stygies. If I mix, I won't get this. So the Infiltrators *need* to be in another detach. So can I still play WoM on them?

Yes.

Either way you need two battalions cp s to actually perform a decent plan you can make one Mars other stygies . Still fluffy. Mono Mars atm only one performing above friendlies so far. For me

 Yoda79 wrote:
Either way you need two battalions cp s to actually perform a decent plan you can make one Mars other stygies . Still fluffy. Mono Mars atm only one performing above friendlies so far. For me

for me I am leaning towards two battalions, 1 with most of my list in it (usually run as ryza/stygies) and 1 mixed with 2x enginseers (same forgeworld as battalion 1), 3x 5 vanguard no upgrades with Graia for deny purposes, and occasionally use this to put the other odd unit in as well, e.g. WoM Infiltrators or Ryzaphrons (if running Battalion 1 as stygies for example).

dadamowsky wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Dragoons, if you do use them, are to be used as a distraction for something with similar toughness and weaknesses. They can be countered pretty hard by Orks, Eldar, and even SW.

I'm testing Dragoons with Culexus and results are promising. Culexus' fight last solves the one problem Dragoons had - they have to hit first. One of the matches was quite amusing as the 90 Boyz were running away from the 2x4 Dragoons and 2 Culexus (one per each Dragoon unit), and giving my Kastelans a room to breathe. The tricky part are the maneuvers, as Culexus cant keep up with the Dragoons at full speed (not without the 4+ Advance roll at least), and he can't heroically intervene after DS.

I'm looking for where this Culexus fight last rule is and I can't find it, can anyone help me out here?

RogueChutoy wrote:

dadamowsky wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Dragoons, if you do use them, are to be used as a distraction for something with similar toughness and weaknesses. They can be countered pretty hard by Orks, Eldar, and even SW.

I'm testing Dragoons with Culexus and results are promising. Culexus' fight last solves the one problem Dragoons had - they have to hit first. One of the matches was quite amusing as the 90 Boyz were running away from the 2x4 Dragoons and 2 Culexus (one per each Dragoon unit), and giving my Kastelans a room to breathe. The tricky part are the maneuvers, as Culexus cant keep up with the Dragoons at full speed (not without the 4+ Advance roll at least), and he can't heroically intervene after DS.

I'm looking for where this Culexus fight last rule is and I can't find it, can anyone help me out here?

2cp Soul Horror stratagem, causes any enemy units within 3" of Culexus to fight last, even if they charged. Also ignores other abilities that allow enemies to fight first.

Its in the white dwarf

Aw, missed that. Thank you gents.

Quick rules clarification:

If I use Infoskull stratagem on my ryzaphrons am I allowed to also use the Plasma Specialist stratagem?
Also do I benefit from a TPD´s reroll 1´s or from the canticle that allowes rerolls of 1?

 lash92 wrote:
Quick rules clarification:

If I use Infoskull stratagem on my ryzaphrons am I allowed to also use the Plasma Specialist stratagem?
Also do I benefit from a TPD´s reroll 1´s or from the canticle that allowes rerolls of 1?

Anything that you would or could use in the shooting phase you can use when they 'shoot as if it were the shooting phase'

 lash92 wrote:
Quick rules clarification:

If I use Infoskull stratagem on my ryzaphrons am I allowed to also use the Plasma Specialist stratagem?
Also do I benefit from a TPD´s reroll 1´s or from the canticle that allowes rerolls of 1?

You sure can, and its an amazing feeling when you can use it with ryzaphrons, blowing up basically anything that came out of deepstrike

Is this specifically addressed anywhere that could be referenced?