Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
lash92 wrote: So after the "nerf" to the Guard Dagger:
Anyone still using Destroyers? I really wanna include some Ryzaphrons, but they feel so squishy for their point cost...
I'll still be using Destroyers though mostly as Mars. They put out a lot of damage for their points so the squishiness is just a trade off for that, for their points they're pretty good. We've always got the option for Shroudpsalm + Acquisition at any Cost if they're being threatened. 2+ 4++ from range is pretty good. If you want to keep them safe turn one there's always Lucius or an Imperial Bunker.
I never used the dagger with my destroyers since i kind of expected the interaction to get axed. If you play with decent enough ruins, you can probably hide 6 of them from the majority of your opponent's army. Them being infantry measn that they can just walk out of the ruins and start shooting when you need them to. They are the main (burst) damage dealers in my army, with onagers taking up after them as resilient damage dealers.
lash92 wrote: Are you giving them grav as mars so you can potentially also WoM with then?
I haven't so far but I'm considering it. I'm a bit put off grav because it doesn't do much that you can't achieve with triple phosphor Kastelan's and it feels less versatile than plasma. I suppose if you're running multiple neutron lasers then the grav is perfectly suitable. Generally if I'm looking for a backup unit for potential mid/late game WoM I use Sicarian Infiltrators.
ultimentra wrote: Seriously? What the hell is shooting them that they feel squishy? They're toughness 5 with 3 wounds and 3+ save with shroudpsalm and the ability to revive. If your opponent is dedicating their entire army to kill them then its really on you for not punishing that with having other viable threats on the board. You actually seriously think theyre expensive? Compared to what exactly? Tell me what other units are kicking out that massive amount of firepower for the price tag. The castellan is dead, get with the times people. You should have seen what they costed before chapter approved, and I still took them then!
Lets keep the discussion calm ;-)
My meta is full of things with decent strength, high rate of fire and multiple damage. Think about tripple Riptide, Dark Eldar Dissi canons etc.
But you are right that having other threats is key. I´m actually thinking about having a big unit of Destroyers (9-12) and a unit of dragoons (4-6) which infiltrate up the board.
Imo they lack defensive capabilites for their point cost yes. Which is fine I guess since offensively they are absolute bonkers.
ultimentra wrote: Seriously? What the hell is shooting them that they feel squishy? They're toughness 5 with 3 wounds and 3+ save with shroudpsalm and the ability to revive. If your opponent is dedicating their entire army to kill them then its really on you for not punishing that with having other viable threats on the board. You actually seriously think theyre expensive? Compared to what exactly? Tell me what other units are kicking out that massive amount of firepower for the price tag. The castellan is dead, get with the times people. You should have seen what they costed before chapter approved, and I still took them then!
Lets keep the discussion calm ;-)
My meta is full of things with decent strength, high rate of fire and multiple damage. Think about tripple Riptide, Dark Eldar Dissi canons etc.
But you are right that having other threats is key. I´m actually thinking about having a big unit of Destroyers (9-12) and a unit of dragoons (4-6) which infiltrate up the board.
Imo they lack defensive capabilites for their point cost yes. Which is fine I guess since offensively they are absolute bonkers.
They pair amazingly well with a melee threat like dragoons/electropriest. Telling your opponent "Deal with these or else" with multiple units is that way to play admech.
Indeed, we certainly don't lack in offensive capability and we are fairly resilient from range. In my experience I lose games because my opponent has been able to work their way around or through my screens. Having a unit tri-pointed/held hostage next to my gunline or having the Kastelans otherwise engaged in combat is often the way I lose. Of course this is usually through my own failings in positioning my screens but it's something I find quite difficult to effectively and consistently avoid - particularly against units that Fly, move twice, fight twice or a combination of those.
Another thing we can struggle with, as with all gunlines, is physical board control. We can effectively remove enemy units from objectives but it's not always easy to take them. One of the reasons I like Breachers is that they have a similar defensive profile to our main damage dealers, so it isn't always an easy choice for the opponent having to decide between removing the screens or removing the heavy hitters.
xlDuke wrote: Indeed, we certainly don't lack in offensive capability and we are fairly resilient from range. In my experience I lose games because my opponent has been able to work their way around or through my screens. Having a unit tri-pointed/held hostage next to my gunline or having the Kastelans otherwise engaged in combat is often the way I lose. Of course this is usually through my own failings in positioning my screens but it's something I find quite difficult to effectively and consistently avoid - particularly against units that Fly, move twice, fight twice or a combination of those.
Another thing we can struggle with, as with all gunlines, is physical board control. We can effectively remove enemy units from objectives but it's not always easy to take them. One of the reasons I like Breachers is that they have a similar defensive profile to our main damage dealers, so it isn't always an easy choice for the opponent having to decide between removing the screens or removing the heavy hitters.
Couldn´t agree more with all of that. With the increase in CP cost for an single assassin I´m trying out the 4 assassin detachment as my third one. They offer some decent counter punch against fast melee units plus they can also offer mobility through deepstrike, plus boardcontrol. Placing a Culexus on an objective can get quite frustrating for your opponent
xlDuke wrote: Indeed, we certainly don't lack in offensive capability and we are fairly resilient from range. In my experience I lose games because my opponent has been able to work their way around or through my screens. Having a unit tri-pointed/held hostage next to my gunline or having the Kastelans otherwise engaged in combat is often the way I lose. Of course this is usually through my own failings in positioning my screens but it's something I find quite difficult to effectively and consistently avoid - particularly against units that Fly, move twice, fight twice or a combination of those.
Another thing we can struggle with, as with all gunlines, is physical board control. We can effectively remove enemy units from objectives but it's not always easy to take them. One of the reasons I like Breachers is that they have a similar defensive profile to our main damage dealers, so it isn't always an easy choice for the opponent having to decide between removing the screens or removing the heavy hitters.
Couldn´t agree more with all of that. With the increase in CP cost for an single assassin I´m trying out the 4 assassin detachment as my third one. They offer some decent counter punch against fast melee units plus they can also offer mobility through deepstrike, plus boardcontrol. Placing a Culexus on an objective can get quite frustrating for your opponent
I've not tried the Assassin's much yet but an Eversor saved my last game for me by killing a unit that would otherwise have tied up my Kastelans for most of the game. I'll be really interested to read how the full Execution Force turns out for you. It certainly adds a huge amount of versatility as you say, would you run it alongside two Battalions or perhaps a Brigade?
xlDuke wrote: Indeed, we certainly don't lack in offensive capability and we are fairly resilient from range. In my experience I lose games because my opponent has been able to work their way around or through my screens. Having a unit tri-pointed/held hostage next to my gunline or having the Kastelans otherwise engaged in combat is often the way I lose. Of course this is usually through my own failings in positioning my screens but it's something I find quite difficult to effectively and consistently avoid - particularly against units that Fly, move twice, fight twice or a combination of those.
Another thing we can struggle with, as with all gunlines, is physical board control. We can effectively remove enemy units from objectives but it's not always easy to take them. One of the reasons I like Breachers is that they have a similar defensive profile to our main damage dealers, so it isn't always an easy choice for the opponent having to decide between removing the screens or removing the heavy hitters.
Couldn´t agree more with all of that. With the increase in CP cost for an single assassin I´m trying out the 4 assassin detachment as my third one. They offer some decent counter punch against fast melee units plus they can also offer mobility through deepstrike, plus boardcontrol. Placing a Culexus on an objective can get quite frustrating for your opponent
I've not tried the Assassin's much yet but an Eversor saved my last game for me by killing a unit that would otherwise have tied up my Kastelans for most of the game. I'll be really interested to read how the full Execution Force turns out for you. It certainly adds a huge amount of versatility as you say, would you run it alongside two Battalions or perhaps a Brigade?
Prior to the FAQ I was running the Operative Sanctioned Stratagem. I ususally run a Vindicare because I also take about 4x Transuranic Arquebus. I use the Arquebus to drop characters down to a couple of wounds then finish off with the assassin, spend 1cp and gain 2 back... worked quite well - it kept my ryzaphrons in enough CP mostly...
If I was against a psyker heavy list e.g. eldar/Tsons etc. I might go for a Culexus but again often those armies might also have characters hiding behind ++ saves which mean the vindicare again is a good deal (I run a second battalion of Graia - cheap, 2x E, 3x Vanguard - for their strat)
Against somthing like Nids where there is not a lot of infantry characters I would have tended to go for the Everasor as he could also have thinned out the chaff units the Nid player brought.
Note that now the FAQ dropped Culexus vs. Dark Reapers - the DR win as if there is two rules that force hits on a certain roll the attacker wins... (FAQ Rulebook page 7).
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other fun unit I tried out the other day was the Ambull.
Probably not worth it for competative play, but take in an Aux Support detachment for 70pts what you get is not bad.
Free deepstrike/redeploy on a combat monster each turn.
T6, 7W, 3+ save & regaining D3 wounds per battle round
4A @ S6 -3AP, D3 damage
if there is a unit of devatators etc on the backfield he can pop up and either force the opponent to focus fire until dead (taking away fire from your ryzaphrons Kastellans etc.) or he will make the points back ususally. he can also claim objectives and linebreaker if you need to...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/02 21:12:41
Ideasweasel wrote: Can people weigh on on breachers. I am starting to see lots of people taking them but I am not quite understanding their application
Hitting on 4’s for melee doesn’t seem that great. And yet people seem to be doing really well with them (which is nice)
Would someone be able to clarify what they shine against and the best use of them ie targets etc
Thanks
They sit there as a really tough screen with big bases - they block a lot of space preventing non-flying units from reaching your lines.
might push forward a bit to capture nearby objectives.
occasionally they damage light vehicles with haywire.
for 30 points a pop not a bad choice, esp. in a servitor maniple for a 5++, they can get to a 1+/4++ fairly easily.
Ideasweasel wrote: Can people weigh on on breachers. I am starting to see lots of people taking them but I am not quite understanding their application
Hitting on 4’s for melee doesn’t seem that great. And yet people seem to be doing really well with them (which is nice)
Would someone be able to clarify what they shine against and the best use of them ie targets etc
Thanks
Just my opinion as a casual player, but they are tougher than terminators against most things (while costing the same) and more of a threat in shooting vs. vehicles, with competent melee also. they really tie the enemy up trying to kill them and they can't be ignored as they are a moderate to good threat against everything (their default gun is as good as a krak missile launcher vs vehicles, and better against light vehicles).
Yeah its primarily their durability vs cost.
Theyre not vehicles, despite looking like second-rate walkers, so they can still go into ruins and ignore anti-vehicle rules.
Theyre still troopers, so they objectsecure
Theyre not that expensive.
Breachers basically require insane amounts of dakka or high AP weapons to deal with reliably, and they just arent worth using such weapons on them unless you need them off an objective badly or theres nothing else to hit anyway.
Its the same mentality i used Tau Piranha in older editions: just durable enough to require bigger guns or a charge to deal with, and were often a complete waste of time to deal with them since they were so cheap.
Destroyers are sorta pricy but whatcha want for a big-plasmagun user?
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
So as a new casual mechanicus player, I bought a the start collecting box, a box of kastellans and some kataphrons. Would it be best to assemble the kataphrons as breachers or destroyers?
Rex2490 wrote: Page 138 – The Dagger of Tu’Sakh
Add the following sentence at the start of the rules text:
‘Infantry Officer model only.’
Change the first sentence to read:
‘During deployment, you can set up the bearer and
one Astra Militarum Infantry unit from your
army behind enemy lines instead of placing them on
the battlefield.
There goes that, too.
Ha! Told you guys this wasn't intended the way it was being used.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
Rex2490 wrote: Page 138 – The Dagger of Tu’Sakh
Add the following sentence at the start of the rules text:
‘Infantry Officer model only.’
Change the first sentence to read:
‘During deployment, you can set up the bearer and
one Astra Militarum Infantry unit from your
army behind enemy lines instead of placing them on
the battlefield.
There goes that, too.
Ha! Told you guys this wasn't intended the way it was being used.
Oh I know, never was with that. Nor did I want it to be a thing as good as it sounded. Usually in 40k, I go by "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".
Ha! Told you guys this wasn't intended the way it was being used.
I think no one really thought that it was intended to be like that. I for my part just used it, since RAW it was totally legal.
So what are you running post FAQ if I might ask? You always had some interesting lists
For those of you who are running Cawlstar: How many robots do you use atm?
ThePie wrote: So as a new casual mechanicus player, I bought a the start collecting box, a box of kastellans and some kataphrons. Would it be best to assemble the kataphrons as breachers or destroyers?
Personally prefer plasma destroyers with flamers secondary weapons.
reasons:
1. you have skitarii for chaff shield (although you need a few more of them for this...).
2. plasma/grav = plasma is more versitile easier to take out vehicles, monsters, primaris etc. but grav has reliability - a standard amount of shots per gun. if you run the plasma kataphrons as the forgeworld Ryza (Ryzaphrons) they can be boosted up as an insane amount of damage for their points. run them as a servitor maniple from Vigilus Defiant book, allowing you to have +1 to hit for 1CP (alternatively if you have Kastellans +1 to hit for both for 2CP without vigilus). then the Ryza stratagem: Plasma Specialists for 1CP to ass +1 to wound rolls and +1 damage per shot. you end up with overcharging plasma destroyers hitting on 3+ (rerolling 1's because you have a Dominus within 6"...) which can't blow up on a roll of a 1 because of the +1 to hit. S8, but wounding T7 & lower on 2+, T8 on 3+, and T9 or higher on 4+. for a flat 3 damage per shot...
3. flamers/phosphor blasters - I run as flamers for overwatch prevention as a last resort. not much in it though. if you have a Tech-Priest Manipulus from one of our Kill Team boxes he can add +3" range to the flamers and +6" range to the plasma as well. meaning unless the enemny wants a 12" charge he will be hit by the flamers. and your plasma can reach accross the board ususually.
might also suggest you take the skitarii as 5x rangers with transuranic arquebus, and 5x vanguard either no upgrades or with plasma caliver. as the rangers can sit in the backfield and plink off characters, and the vanguard are mostly chaff to prevent charges of kastellans/onager/kataphrons...
I would suggest you buy/convert the following in the future:
1. a couple of Enginseers - cheap HQ's to allow you to take a cheap second battalion for CP.
2. at least 1 more skitarii box, possibly 2 (or start collecting again) as this will allow you to have enough infantry for 2x battalions - you need 3x troops for each (5x 5man vanguard/rangers, 1x Kataphrons)
3. one or two dunecrawlers (inc. in start collecting...) as neutron lasers or Icarus arrays are the best weapons here.
4. another box of Kataphrons to boost up the Ryzaphrons up to 6 models - they have a lot more threat at 6 models than 3...
3. sydonian Dragoons with taser lances - they can range forward, and take ground floor objectives tie up melee units etc. for a cheap model. run 4 of them with the strat conquerer doctrina and watch that orc horde evaporate.
The Destroyers can also be quite easily magnetized, so you can switch between weapon options.
I would also recommend the Kill team box with the manipulus and 5 Infiltrators.
Ha! Told you guys this wasn't intended the way it was being used.
I think no one really thought that it was intended to be like that. I for my part just used it, since RAW it was totally legal.
So what are you running post FAQ if I might ask? You always had some interesting lists
For those of you who are running Cawlstar: How many robots do you use atm?
I find 4 to be a good number, though I've not run more. 4 is enough to kill 4 small units, two large ones or one high wound model with perhaps a couple of surviving models/few wounds left to be finished off by other units. It's also simpler to screen fewer Kastelans.
ThePie wrote: So as a new casual mechanicus player, I bought a the start collecting box, a box of kastellans and some kataphrons. Would it be best to assemble the kataphrons as breachers or destroyers?
These are difficult questions to answer. Really I think that you couldn't go far wrong with either choice but you're currently low on screening units, which Breachers would give you. You're also a little low on anti-infantry and anti-vehicle which are covered more by Destroyers than Breachers, though Breachers have fairly decent anti-vehicle for low points levels.
Going for Destroyers will lean you toward a more powerful offense whereas Breachers give you more defense. If you're into modelling the best thing to do is have your Kataphrons able to be assembled as either, by keeping them modular and not gluing the gun arms, stocks and barrels together or to the main body.
Whatever you choose you won't be impeding yourself. I would advise that the next thing you get be a Tech-Priest Enginseer/Tech-Priest Manipulus for a second HQ to fill a Battalion, As Mech has great stratagems and we rely on them somewhat. If you want a list filled with multi-wound models more Breachers/Destroyers would be good troops, if not and you'd like some more standard infantry Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard are great. Building toward a second Battalion with 2x Enginseers and 2x Rangers/Vanguard/one of each gets you working toward larger points games and is a detachment I never go without, it's basically to boost your CP and bolster your screens. It's also difficult to go wrong with another Start Collecting! or two. You end up with spare Dominus' but the value is still good.
I take 2 blocks of 6 breachers anchored by a dominous
You really take them for survivability
But
The eye of agripinaa makes them surprisingly offensive across 3+ turns a more output than destroyers which tend to go off once then die
The prime hermiticon on the dominous is really underated vs some opponents the 75% hit rate makes the breachers quite good vs non dedicated mellee units
After all the games I've played and since I always try to push you all to play a plan. I'll say this.
I use Mars
Cawl is vital most likely because I use robts breachers and destroyers.
I love ryza but can't field it effectively while Mars gives me more options. If I go ryza and make a solid detachment breachers destreyers domiinus it has mobility and I suggest you all take it as second detachment if you don't use Robots if you use alles knights etc.
So if you play alied soup I'd suggest you try
Vigilus detachment
Dominus hermeticon (maybe heal or rayment)
Engineer ( wt vigilus maybe ) if you plan run serviors.
If you go Mars gun line Cawl robts
I suggest beyond manipulis Cawl
2*5-6 breachers hydrylc
8+ Plasm destroyers
This are minimum you can take 2*5 breachers more etc.
Why hydralic well as you have all nderstood o far breaches are screen. F they become Locked n combat no problem to stay there. Rerolling 4+ so you would as str 6 for 1 w is nothing.
But hitting on 5s rerolling miss wounding as str 10 for d3 damage is closer to the role they serve. Or try to have one unit each.
Same for destroyer and flmers vs phoshor. If you play them aggressively and you must as ryza bloop flamers work.
As Mars gunlne I use manipuls for a sweet 30" rapid 15 phoshor .
As Mars I use all buffs even frst rounds breachers rerolling 4 d3-d6 damge is good.
So it all come down to playstyle and list.
I don't use onngers ATM I prefer destroes . Robots are stationary enough for me and he onagers can screen or fall back.
I’m curious about this as well. Like what pairs with them. I would assume certain Admech units play nice with kataphrons but dragoons electropriests etc probably not so much of a use for them?
I have a drill and want to make it work. Yoda have you found stygies breachers to be pretty solid or does mars just outshine the rest (as far as breachers go)
I use 3 robots ATM but can be 4 depending on the list. More cp 3 robots less cp 4.
Stygies is superb but i cant imagine bs4+ with out Cawl.
Even with elimination volley rerolls are must. Because enemy will use stygies or equal defence and Mars Cawl elimination and vigilus +1 to hit can keep plasma overcharged even vs planes.
As I said beyond the Mars gun line anything else can be good in a soup? I play stygies if I use dragoons. Onagers etc . A heavy detachment snipers back filed etc. One detachment can be stygies if you don't have a bloop gun line and separate forces or you have assault like knighs and dragoons so you can use stygies to force your oponent to go kill your rangers melee.
I pull use stugies for a nice Robot destroyers back field but I'd have to sacrifice wrath of Mars and that is not valid.
I have used wrath of Mars in same game on infiltrators robots destroyers depending on the target etc.
This the main reason I don't take ryza. I've tested with Mars and ruza with two units of destroyers was not bad I had
Elimination volley for Mars robots destroyers and vigilus for ryza
Lethal but I xplained in various posts why I decided to go full Mars .
After faq in have yet to test ryza again . And I will definetly try custodes in my list vs assassin's that I stopped using after faq.
So depending on cp results etc I'm still thinking about a versatile force maybe stygies ryza custodes or Mars ruza . Agripiina even. Still testing various lists .
Breachers opened up a good combo in list building .
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/04 00:48:14
After faq in have yet to test ryza again . And I will definetly try custodes in my list vs assassin's that I stopped using after faq.
So depending on cp results etc I'm still thinking about a versatile force maybe stygies ryza custodes or Mars ruza . Agripiina even. Still testing various lists .
Yeah the single Assassin got really expensive at 2CP. I´m thinking about taking all 4 so I don´t need to spend 2CP but gain 1. I will test this.
Custodes might be viable again, same for Blood Angels, but Blood Angels + AdMech with Vigilus gets expensive CP wise.
Praise the Omnissiah
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
