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If that thing is actually good I’m going to have to start getting more legs to put on otherwise nonlegged vehicles.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
But then again, I would really need a good reason to run the tank version over my chicken walker spam list. (I assume they will be Skitarii, so they will get +2 to hit, but if they cannot be squadroned, it's probably a wash.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/14 21:00:39
Interesting the label for one of the tank weapons days 'Energy Howizter' a howitzer is an artillery weapon and the more i look at the other weapon with the T shaped end, that also looks like an artillery type gun. Too much of a stretch to think they both might ignore los?
Octovol wrote: Interesting the label for one of the tank weapons days 'Energy Howizter' a howitzer is an artillery weapon and the more i look at the other weapon with the T shaped end, that also looks like an artillery type gun. Too much of a stretch to think they both might ignore los?
If they did, I am sure the models will sell out fast. They may do so anyway because of the transport...
I really can't wait for the datasheet of the Skorpius Dunerider and its point cost, hope to see it previewed this week !
I have some ideas of Ryza lists I'd like to write but I got to know the costs... I'd like to have 2x10 Vanguards with 3 Calivers and Data-tether in Skorpiuses, as well as 2x10-12 Fulgurites in Skorpiuses too. Then add a unit of 6 Ryzaphrons, 3 Onagers, the Fistellans and you have an idea.
Aaranis wrote: I really can't wait for the datasheet of the Skorpius Dunerider and its point cost, hope to see it previewed this week !
I have some ideas of Ryza lists I'd like to write but I got to know the costs... I'd like to have 2x10 Vanguards with 3 Calivers and Data-tether in Skorpiuses, as well as 2x10-12 Fulgurites in Skorpiuses too. Then add a unit of 6 Ryzaphrons, 3 Onagers, the Fistellans and you have an idea.
This idea intrigues me the most. I almost want to run a Dark Eldar style Venom spam except with the Duneriders depending on how cheap they are. Run as Stygies, and depending on their stat line/possible open topness I would run four of them each with a loaded up Plasma Vanguard.
Run those with eight Dragoons and you've got yourself a mobile force that has threats everywhere with points left over to add in your flavor to the army. But again very dependent on the Duneriders not being trash.
i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
It's more fluffy, at least imo, and they are more close range than rangers.
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
It's a 1pt difference not 2. I do it for the weight of fire, flexibility of advancing and shooting, the 2dmg on wound rolls of six is very useful in a pinch, and yes I use the -1 toughness often.
I think Vanguard are a better troop overall just because they have assault based weapons and can hold up a BIT better in combat. In a game where taking mid field objectives is key, those advantages cannot be understated.
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
To me Vanguards are the ones who want to be danger close, so the plasma fits them best. That way they're all Assault, and if they're charged they can be useful for the counter-charge with the -1T. The other day playing Graia I had received a charge from jetbikes on the Vanguards, my Culexus and Dominus. They kinda failed their attacks, so I could return the hits with the Vanguards who know wounded on 4s and the Culexus who wounded on 3s. Next turn I had Emotionless Clarity on the Dominus so I could shoot a dozen Radium shots on the bikes that wounded on 4s thanks to the -1T.
My Rangers are either always in squads of 5-7 with two Arquebuses and an Omnispex, or base. I almost always have a squad with two Arc Rifles too, because it's so cheap and cool-looking.
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
Synergy, the two weapons are assault, have the same range, and both can do 2 damage flat per shot. Vanguard just make sense. Rangers are cheaper yes, but a whopping 5-10 points per unit in the grand scheme isn't a big deal in my eyes when the vanguard line up better. Heck they even used to have the same amount of shots if I remember right.
Metallica specific, vanguard make better use of our Forgeworld trait. It'd be very stupid for a Metalica player to stick plasma on rangers, especially if he plans on advancing the whole game when vanguard exist. And the -1 T can be handy. I wouldn't call it a game changer, but it means they wound a lot of things on 4's in CQC. If we ever got a way to give units extra attacks they'd be a pretty solid counterassult unit. I keep reading that the rangers rifles do more damage per point but I never see it, maybe that's just me. I guess my thing I see so many Primaris for example anything that can do 2D just works for me. I'm sure the math checks out but I gotta go with my gut.
In other news, I got to try the Metalica sprint bots for the first time yesterday. Need to do a few more games but I think it shows some promise for a fun style if nothing else. Spoiling as a mercy to fellow phone posters
Spoiler:
So here's what went down. 1000pts game vs thousand sons lists below. Key thing of import was I had two Kastellans armed x2 phosphor/incendine combustor. At a 1,000pts I'm essentially running my planned 2k list but cut in half. The board was a simple 4x4 urban map, playing Chapter approved maelstom mission 5. Idea was simple, everything moves up but rangers. Some things like kataphrons moved slower, and Dominus sticks in the back to provide a fall back point, but for the most part the army is sprinting forward at all times. Kastellans are there to be an anchor point for the vanguard, Dragoons, and Kataphrons to rally around while the rangers and Onager provide fire support and hold rear objectives. As the game began with first turn I had my enginseer use the skull to get the bots ready for protector mode next turn.
My problem was I was playing the one army who wanted to hide his whole list and not fight me in the open. He also had a decked out squad of rubric terminators, marines, and tzaangors in deepstrike, meaning I've got precious few targets. With lots of LOS blocking ruins, I needed to close the distance to get vision and I deployed the robots poorly. You can see this in the pictures below, where the robots are standing is after a single 12" advance from my own lines before going into protector. I obliterated a rubric squad and chipped wounds off the mutalith and demon prince, but due to incredibly sloppy play the Kastellans didn't even get to shoot and only 2 kataphrons got to shoot, one of whom killed himself, and the Onager completely whiffed. All things considered an excellent shooting turn as far as damage was concerned considering my poor infantry had to do all the work.
Going into the bottom of turn 1 thousand sons counterattack, much smite and infernal gateway is had, and the daemon prince lands smack in the middle of my lines not 2" from the Kastellans. As he pyskers the infantry and dragoon, the robots take some minor damage but survive to the charge phase.
This is where the fun begins and I forgot to take pictures. If you look at the second picture, the daemon prince manages to warptime and end up behind the dragoon right next to the bots, meanwhile ahriman is going after the dragoon. Realizing my bots are about to get charged by a daemon prince, I've got a tough choice that I have to make at start of charge phase. I can leave the bots in aegis mode, bank on surviving combat, then fall back and shoot the daemon prince using elimination volley to help accuracy, or, I can slam into protector doctrina and try to kill him here and now with 4d6 combustor and 24 phosphor shots. I go for the overwatch kill and binharic override. I roll a respectable 18 shots or so and sneak in a few damage and then get 4 phosphor hits which knock off a couple more wound dropping the prince down to 4. What follows is the worst reward for dumb play I've ever seen.
Thousand sons player decides to kill dragoon first, dragoon explodes chipping prince and ahriman. DP is now at 3. He swings at bots and kills one. I decide to force an explosion and roll a flat 3 damage on the prince, killing him. I lose some vanguard and almost lost a kataphron, along with damaging the other Kastellan in the blast, but it works. I have killed more of my models than him but am leading handily on VP thanks to maelstom. I am now down to a single damaged Kastellan. Said Kastellan lasts a few more turns and does a surprising amount of work for being stuck in the middle and only able to use maybe 2 fire lanes. My opponent basically just tried to avoid the bot and hops from cover to cover with most of his units for the rest of the game, sole exception being the terminators which slowly chip away at him. Due to the mission format being absolutely brutal when it comes to objectives, luck played a small part in my victory but I do feel I played it halfway decently and any issues were operator error, not the list.
The good: -The bots did well for how badly I played. The overwatch was nasty but I need more to truly shut down assaults. The big draws though was that while they basically lost an entire turn of shooting, they still did the typical job of making opponents avoid their fire lines. However by being so far forward this meant that the opponent just could not avoid them and the rest of my army, something would have a shot. To not even pull off strafing run was a good initial "worst case" test. Are they going to win a major event? Probably not, but it was fun. I'm excited to see them "work" as intended.
-Kataphrons, duh
-Rangers, they did some work with the arquebuses. They were my most consistent big game weapon all game. They chipped the prince and ahriman at various points, put wounds on the mutalith, and made him be cautious with ahriman. They never did jaw dropping damage, but they had enough shots to sneak in a couple MW and finish off targets. I still feel I need more, just like the Kastellans, to truly ensure results. I feel like 6 arquebuses at 1k would be about right, probably 12 at 2k. I'm often just short of killing hard characters when I focus with all 4 at the moment.
the bad -the neutron laser never got a single hit through saves. It was essentially a punching bag, it's most significant contribution being holding up the mutalith. I want to like it because it's far easier to roll for than the stupid Icarus array but I am cursed when it comes to D3 shot weapons.
-vanguard, I tried taking them barebones but really missed the plasma. I should've dropped the barebones ranger squad and a model or two to kit the rangers out. They still did damage, but you could tell they were struggling
-complete lack of pysker defense, although that's an army problem, you really feel it against the thousand sons. Lost probably half my infantry to smites and gateway.
Spoiler:
End of my turn 1, note poorly positioned sprinting bots have a bad field of fire.
[/url]
Going into opponents assault phase of turn 1, and the panic binharic override. Got caught up in the game and forgot to take more pics
Vanguard:10 with data tether
Vanguard:9 with data tether
Rangers: 5 men barebones
X2 rangers: 5 men with 2 arquebuses
kataphrons: X3 plasma/phosphor
Sydonian dragoon
Onager: Nova laser and x2 heavy stubbers
X2 Kastellans: x2 phosphor/incendine combustor
Thousand sons
Daemon prince
Ahriman
X2 rubric marine squads with chaincannons and the icon
10 tzangors with cqc loadout
5 rubric terminators with chaincannon missiles
Mutalith
If you made it through all that good for you and I apologise.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
Mostly because you can advance and still shoot with whole squad. You don't have compromise shooting/movement with that unit and they have the same range. Thats why plasmas are for vanguards and arc rifles are for rangers. This -1T isn't much but have been really helpful to me dozen times, buts that mainly due to my army compositions and play style.
Pts in 40k are like calories. They aren't equal. We cannot look at them in vacuum. On planet bowling ball balistari are to squishy to be antitank squad, give them some line of sight blocking, and their movement start to shine and they can easily outperform onagers. Don't just look for points, look for synergies and possibilities.
@MrMoustaffa
6x Arquebus is pretty much the minimum. Any fewer, and you won't make an impact in individual turns.
Neutron Laser is great against things without an invulnerable save. Also good for executing characters. But not as good as Ironstrider Ballistarii due to being much more expensive and having to struggle against minus to hit. At the same time, Icarus Crawlers are much more flexible than Neutron Crawlers still.
I tend to always run Graia infantry and tax HQs. Having the option to Abhor is extremely valuable because it's 1 CP to counter entire game plans. Psyker armies by their very nature rely a lot on their spells.
Why do you run tethers on the infantry? I actually think it's always more efficient to run another man somewhere else. Lol. And if you need better morale, just huddle around a Crawler or Ironstrider.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/15 20:32:00
Octovol wrote: Interesting the label for one of the tank weapons days 'Energy Howizter' a howitzer is an artillery weapon and the more i look at the other weapon with the T shaped end, that also looks like an artillery type gun. Too much of a stretch to think they both might ignore los?
If they did, I am sure the models will sell out fast. They may do so anyway because of the transport...
Imagine if one single model filled all the gaps in our army.
Flyer, Transport, Non-LoS shooting and (wishful thinking) some sort of psychic deny,
That would be dope as hell.
Realistically i think were getting : pseudo fly(disengage then shoot possible) and a 18-24" lascannon equivalent
However the onager has 2 stubers for 6 S4 ap 0 attacks +1T +5W a 3+ instead of a 4+ a 5++ reroll1's instead of a 6+ and can move without penalty to firing even if its not as quick. Its not the main cannon thats better its the survivability of the platform its also just as good as individual ballistarii against -1s.
The only time you should be running tethers on infantry is hoplites
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/15 15:46:22
Imagine if one single model filled all the gaps in our army. Flyer, Transport, Non-LoS shooting and (wishful thinking) some sort of psychic deny, That would be dope as hell.
Realistically i think were getting : pseudo fly(disengage then shoot possible) and a 18-24" lascannon equivalent
And priced as such? No thank you, id rather have unit that does good one or two things, but is affordable in points.
U02dah4 wrote: Neutron onager is generally better than a ballistari
However the onager has 2 stubers for 6 S4 ap 0 attacks +1T +5W a 3+ instead of a 4+ a 5++ reroll1's instead of a 6+ and can move without penalty to firing even if its not as quick. Its not the main cannon thats better its the survivability of the platform its also just as good as individual ballistarii against -1s.
The only time you should be running tethers on infantry is hoplites
Onager isn't better than balistari. Not after rule of 3 came and meta shifted to high inv vehicles/flyer spam. With both of those balistari do better than onager. Onager are still good, especially icarus one with cawl, but when you need raw power, balistari outperform them massively. Only problem they have is abundance of flat 3&6 dmg weapons that came with knights.
And you should bring datathethers on any unit that isn't min sized, not only Hoplites. Hoplites are in factt one of few units that you may rather plan to invest those 2cp to make them fearless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/15 15:55:07
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
Vineheart01 wrote: i must ask, why do people put plasmas in a unit of vanguards instead of rangers?
Vanguard are more expensive base and unless im missing something that 2pts difference is either the Radium gun or the -1 to toughness in melee (1" away) in a nonmelee squad.
Calivers are Assault 2 with 18" range. Radium Carbines are Assault 3 with 18" range.
For a VERY minor point cost increase (I usually run units of 8 with 2 calivers and a Data-tether (which I toss on one of the Caliver troopers), so 8 points) you get matching ranges on all of the squad's guns (so you can be 18" away instead of 15" for full firepower) and more importantly can still advance and shoot, which is VERY important if they are running up the field and are supposed to capture and clear objectives or just getting into range in general. Also you can pull of some pretty tasty plays by advancing and then activating protector doctrina, meaning that you are very likely in range for the entire squad (25"-30" threat range in one turn) and are still hitting on 2+ and have 0 risk of overheating. Both things you can't pull of with Rangers.
And that's before considering the D2 you do on 6 to wound rolls, which against non T5 vehicles or monsters is the roll you need to wound them anyway (and you'll be rolling a ton of dice too every time, so it is bound to happen a few times), which means the entire unit is effective against the targets you want to use the Calivers against, unlike Rangers where you are better off split-firing into infantry (and will you have an enemy infantry unit within 15" too when you are going after bigger targets with the Calivers? If not you end up with 1 shot per model again).
I tend to run 1-2 small ranger units as well that are supposed to move forward and screen my lines as well as capture the odd objective when it's nearby, but I prefer to throw a single Arc Rifle on them rather than Calivers. An underrated weapon IMO, 11 points for a Ranger with an arc rifle is dirt cheap, easily makes its points back and adds some nice and flexible extra sprinkles of AT firepower into my list and the 12" rapid fire range usually isn't an issue as I usually find myself either inside 12" (especially if I want to get into RF range) or outside of 15". And there is quite a few T5 and T6 vehicles out there against which the Arc Rifle is extremely point efficient, especially any time you end up playing against Dark Eldar . And most importantly if they get killed (which tends to happen, they are skirmishing/screening units after all, especially with smaller squad sizes) it's not much of a loss, unlike the Calivers which hurt quite a bit more if you lose 'em and are better off in bigger units to keep you investment alive for longer.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2019/05/15 16:14:18
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
Suzuteo wrote: @MrMoustaffa
6x Arquebus is pretty much the minimum. Any fewer, and you won't make an impact in individual turns.
Neutron Laser is great against things without an invulnerable save. Also good for executing characters. But not as good as Ironstrider Ballistarii due to being much more expensive and having to struggle against minus to hit. At the same time, Icarus Crawlers are much more flexible than Neutron Crawlers still.
I tend to always run Graia infantry and tax HQs. Having the option to Abhor is extremely valuable because it's 1 CP to counter entire game plans. Psyker armies by their very nature rely a lot on their spells.
Why do you run tethers on the infantry? I actually think it's always more efficient to run another man somewhere else. Lol. And if you need better morale, just huddle around a Crawler or Ironstrider.
Yeah for the rangers I just need to build more arquebuses. I've got the bits just need bodies.
On the Icarus vs neutron, this is going to sound like a weird complaint but I find the Icarus a chore to roll for. Many of my stores players are new or have little time to play, and trying to explain the weapons on it just really puzzles them for some reason. Trying to explain "this missile is ap2 and 1 damage but this is an autocannon that's an ap 1 and 2 damage, and this is a krak missile but it's s7" and their eyes just gloss over. Ive also had problems with the Icarus just being chip damage and when my only real AT weapons are snipers and Kataphrons I'd like to have a more durable backup for heavy targets. Maybe the new tank will fill that gap and I can take Icarus no issues, well see.
As for morale, I found the opposite. Vanguard morale is trash and I'm not wasting a canticle for free rerolls. Usually the data tethers will save twice their value in men in my experience. On top of that, and again Metallica so experience may vary, they're very handy for when I'm charging up the board and outrun my broad spectrum arrays. Also, it allows me to fall back with a plasma squad, protector doctrina, and still hit the average target on 2's. It's really not a huge deal in the long run but it helps me save the odd CP and bail me out of a tight spot every so often. Since I like to run large squads morale is more of an issue so they come into play more.
Graia would work well, I just enjoy trying to make a mono FW list work for thematic and paint scheme reasons. The soup lists are cool, don't get me wrong, just not for me, and I feel they're a bit flavor of the month that could easily get screwed up by a FAQ in the future. I don't like building lists like that that can get screwed over after all the time and money investment. I'm not attending major events so I'm not particularly pressed to go all out for tournament builds.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
The Icarus vs Neutron debate can last long as there are arguments for both. I've found the big strength of the Neutron is its ability to deal with T8, which the Icarus is powerless against. At least in my meta plagued by Leman Russ Commanders, Repulsors and the occasional Knight/Wraithknight I need to have S10. If I had Ballistarii I'd consider using them for this role but I don't. My point is: S10 is powerful and precious. There's also the matter of the AP-4, which will ignore all the aforementioned's armour save (but not the invulnerable ofc) and will save you from facepalming after your opponent rolls a 6. Minimum 3 damage guarantees you can at least finish them off instead of rolling 1s.
Icarus are built to deal with anything Aeldari, from all flavours. Jetbikes hate it, Raiders hate it, Skyweavers hate it and that's great. There's loads of Jetbikes in my meta as well and Icarus are a plague to them. And if you're facing a horde list, with a simple strat or character you can deal with the ground chaff as well with the 10 shots.
It's tough that we have to limit our Dunecrawlers to 3 because these weapons are best used at least in pairs to guarantee your plan works, you can't rely on 1 Icarus for all the anti-AA in a 2000 pts game. Same for Neutron, alone suffice to have a little bad luck on the wound rolls and it may as well not exist. But three are a real threat to those Russes and with luck you can one-shot one of them with a single salvo (personal record is 17W against an Exocrine ). This is also the reason why I'm happy for the new tank, and don't understand the people saying "Why another tank ?". If its profile and point cost are balanced, and they have option for a powerful gun like the Neutron, we can give full Icarus to our Onagers and leave high Toughness duty to the Skorpius Disintegrator. With a name like that chances are my wishes may come true.
As for the Data-tether subject, I think it best used in lists where you build a minimum around your infantry in your list, meaning maxing them out with special weapons. Without transports few people play that way because anti-infantry weapons aren't lacking, but with a Skorpius it changes all. A reroll Morale for 5 pts can save your last dudes in the squad, usually the special weapons and the Alpha, and that's important. I'm definitely planning at least two 10-man squads of Vanguard with Calivers so I'll need to build some Data-tethers. Hugging your Onagers or Ironstrider is not reliable, it gives a +1 Ld but you're not always in range of one.
i think another factor to icarus vs neutron crawlers is mono-admech or allies.
Originally i wanted 2 neutrons just because i didnt have all that much to deal with T8 other than just rate of fire and hope for the best. But i plan to use warglaives and knights too, which pushes me off the neutron option since now i feel over-saturated with anti-T8 lol
Also in response to the many to my ranger vs vanguard question: didnt think about that. I'm used to never advancing except with pure melee units or Boyz so i just never think of it.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
Aaranis wrote: The Icarus vs Neutron debate can last long as there are arguments for both. I've found the big strength of the Neutron is its ability to deal with T8, which the Icarus is powerless against. At least in my meta plagued by Leman Russ Commanders, Repulsors and the occasional Knight/Wraithknight I need to have S10. If I had Ballistarii I'd consider using them for this role but I don't. My point is: S10 is powerful and precious. There's also the matter of the AP-4, which will ignore all the aforementioned's armour save (but not the invulnerable ofc) and will save you from facepalming after your opponent rolls a 6. Minimum 3 damage guarantees you can at least finish them off instead of rolling 1s.
Icarus are built to deal with anything Aeldari, from all flavours. Jetbikes hate it, Raiders hate it, Skyweavers hate it and that's great. There's loads of Jetbikes in my meta as well and Icarus are a plague to them. And if you're facing a horde list, with a simple strat or character you can deal with the ground chaff as well with the 10 shots.
Exactly what I was thinking. Icarus are great if you know that you'll be facing tons of Eldar reliably, like in super competitive US/UK tournament circuits, and/or are running an Imperium soup, there are no restrictions on LoWs and you could bring Knights (not the case for most tournaments where I am from), and if money isn't a concern and just slapping a whole lot of money on the table to get the on paper most point efficient S9+ AT firepower (Balistarii) is more important than the amount of $$$ that will cost.
I play mono-Admech (the odd assassin aside) and I always have one Icarus Onager. One. Because if I end up playing against armies with plenty of T7 and T8 units and no flying units worth shooting at I can still pop the protector doctrina and have it shoot with a 2+ to hit rather than it struggling to be useful with a 4+ to hit. Because at the end of the day it's a mostly AT vehicle where half the firepower (excluding stubbers because Neutron Crabs do them better) are only S6 D1 and out of the remaining 5 shots four are autocannons, which are pretty bad for AT work in general in this edition, especially as soon as vehicles with 3+ saves come into play. And then there is the cool AP-3 krak missile that is only S7 as well. And you have to fire all of them at the same target too, even if half the shots you shoot will be inefficient against it. No jetbikes or Eldar vehicles (or other tasty sub-T7 flyers) around? Too bad, now have fun shooting at cheap infantry and wasting both autocannons and the Flak-missile or good luck shooting at T7/T8 targets with 3+ saves, you better pray that single Daedalus missile hits and wounds~. It's a pretty all or nothing unit, that can fullfill a solid generalist role in a worst case scenario as long as you have only one and can still make it shoot anything with a 2+ to hit.
It also isn't bad against infantry, especially elite infantry, but that's what the Dakkabots are there for and do better, as well as all the Skitarii (or most Admech units in general). And if Balistarii are your only hard anti tank unit, they aren't particularly hard to kill and even just a unit of two is a very tasty target and much easier to destroy than even a single Dunecrawler, thanks to only having 6 wounds, T6 and a pretty bad save combination of 4+/6++, making any opponent getting first turn happy if that's the cornerstone of your defense against T7+ 3+. They also can't move and fire without penalty. Great bang for your buck if firepower is the deciding factor, much less flexibility and especially survivability than a Crab that only costs 37 points more, which is just an amazing all around package.
Having two Neutron Dunecrawlers as well as a unit of 1-2 Lascannon Balistarii in addition to my one Icarus Crab completely covers my AT needs in 1500 and less point games. Against popular units like Russes and other T8 3+ units with no or a 5++ inv at best they provide some serious bang for your buck, pretty reliable damage output and the chance to simply oneshot a much pricier Leman Russ in a single round. For 119 points. Facing fliers? Pop protector doctrina and make them squirm after you just fired your Icarus Crawler as well. Facing fliers and Balistarii were already killed? Pop protector doctrina. They are great at filling a big hole in a pure Admech army (countering tough T7/T8+ vehicles). Balistarii are good but easily killed, while Neutron Crabs provide great firepower AND great survivability and mobility and a great unit to use your readily available repair units on (as well as two super efficient stubbers), all for 119 points. They even toss out 6 S4 shots at 36" which are ideal to plink objective-sitting infantry. And finally spamming Balistarii and to a lesser degree Plasmaphrons (which also only really start to shine if they come from very specific Forge worlds and if you build your list around them to a large extend) costs a crazy amount of cash, while Dunecrawlers are readily available from SC! boxes that every Admech player has or wants 2-3 of.
This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2019/05/15 19:20:24
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
We really need squadrons for Onagers. I agree that if I could run more than 3 I'd probably be running 4-5 easy, 2 Icarus and 2-3 neutron. One can only hope we get a squadron rule again with a theoretical V2 codex.
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. And most importantly if they get killed (which tends to happen, they are skirmishing/screening units after all, especially with smaller squad sizes) it's not much of a loss, unlike the Calivers which hurt quite a bit more if you lose 'em and are better off in bigger units to keep you investment alive for longer.
