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Octovol wrote: We have individually great models with some contradicting rules and very little interactivity between units. As an army, the rules are pretty awful. We just happen to be saved by having good strategms to prop up the poor rulew writing. See how well you do without any CP and tell me again how good our rules are lol
I agree that we have weird choices of rules (all our melee relics come to mind) but the army as a whole is still strong. Also 8th edition has stratagems as part of the core game, you cannot disreguard them when evaluating an army.
We have answers to everything except psykers. Our anti-horde can also deal with tanks decently and most of our big units are quite resilient. our basic troops are cheap and are great at their job.
Plus we have the OP buff of having the "Imperium" keyword
Agreed.
Though we do have the Graia deny. Sure, isn't "much" and forge world dependent, but on the upside you don't need to pay points for a specialized deny-unit like Inquisitors or psykers, if you play Graia you get it on the house. Not to mention that a flat 4+ to deny any power is great and gets even better because you are able to re-roll it for a CP.
If I look at my Tau... things could be much, MUCH worse for Admech. They can't use allies at all and just have to suck it up when psykers start throwing their strong buffs and debuffs around. NicassarWHEN.jpg
Absolutely agree on everything else in your post.
Quite frankly, I'd rather spend points than having to pay a CP for every single thing I need. If Inquisition wasn't so situational, I'd take them instead of Graia anytime. 50% deny is not bad, don't take me wrong, but... With how I find myself choking on CPs so much in each game, despite bringing 2 Battalions as my go to setup, I definitely don't want to spend any CP that isn't absolutely necessary. And there's a lot to spend those CPs on - Kastelans nuke, Ryzaphrons nuke, Doctrinas for Skitarii, Infiltration, Lucius DS, Assassin and Vigilus formations, knight upgrades... I'm running empty turn 2 or 3 (if Assassin manages to score a character kill meanwhile).
And I that's precisely where I find the stratagem focus really irritating. The army runs fairly well IF you have CPs, and IF the stratagems are not Vected. Whenever one of those happens however, Admech goes immediately into the uphill battle, because the units themselves are not either tough or killy enough, to operate on their own. The situation gets even worse if the opponent knows about this weakness and brins Callidus.
I deny to acknowledge the IG in my lists, just if someone wondered - it might have helped a lot, but I'm not running Admech to mix those guardsman in...
Octovol wrote: We have individually great models with some contradicting rules and very little interactivity between units. As an army, the rules are pretty awful. We just happen to be saved by having good strategms to prop up the poor rulew writing. See how well you do without any CP and tell me again how good our rules are lol
I agree that we have weird choices of rules (all our melee relics come to mind) but the army as a whole is still strong. Also 8th edition has stratagems as part of the core game, you cannot disreguard them when evaluating an army.
We have answers to everything except psykers. Our anti-horde can also deal with tanks decently and most of our big units are quite resilient. our basic troops are cheap and are great at their job.
Plus we have the OP buff of having the "Imperium" keyword
Agreed.
Though we do have the Graia deny. Sure, isn't "much" and forge world dependent, but on the upside you don't need to pay points for a specialized deny-unit like Inquisitors or psykers, if you play Graia you get it on the house. Not to mention that a flat 4+ to deny any power is great and gets even better because you are able to re-roll it for a CP.
If I look at my Tau... things could be much, MUCH worse for Admech. They can't use allies at all and just have to suck it up when psykers start throwing their strong buffs and debuffs around. NicassarWHEN.jpg
Absolutely agree on everything else in your post.
Quite frankly, I'd rather spend points than having to pay a CP for every single thing I need. If Inquisition wasn't so situational, I'd take them instead of Graia anytime. 50% deny is not bad, don't take me wrong, but... With how I find myself choking on CPs so much in each game, despite bringing 2 Battalions as my go to setup, I definitely don't want to spend any CP that isn't absolutely necessary. And there's a lot to spend those CPs on - Kastelans nuke, Ryzaphrons nuke, Doctrinas for Skitarii, Infiltration, Lucius DS, Assassin and Vigilus formations, knight upgrades... I'm running empty turn 2 or 3 (if Assassin manages to score a character kill meanwhile).
And I that's precisely where I find the stratagem focus really irritating. The army runs fairly well IF you have CPs, and IF the stratagems are not Vected. Whenever one of those happens however, Admech goes immediately into the uphill battle, because the units themselves are not either tough or killy enough, to operate on their own. The situation gets even worse if the opponent knows about this weakness and brins Callidus.
I deny to acknowledge the IG in my lists, just if someone wondered - it might have helped a lot, but I'm not running Admech to mix those guardsman in...
You cant control vect but 2 battalions is not enough CP upgrade to a brigade or ditch mono
IronVaught wrote: Am I being ballsy estimating Skorpius Dunerider at 80pts?
Assuming that they won't stack to much special rules then yeah, its probable. Although 4 heavy stubbers its 20 pts, so maybe more like 85. Closest resemblance for me would be sororitias rhino, that is barebones transport with some of the army rules slapped on, and thats 77 pts for version with two stormbolers.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
IronVaught wrote: Am I being ballsy estimating Skorpius Dunerider at 80pts?
Assuming that they won't stack to much special rules then yeah, its probable. Although 4 heavy stubbers its 20 pts, so maybe more like 85. Closest resemblance for me would be sororitias rhino, that is barebones transport with some of the army rules slapped on, and thats 77 pts for version with two stormbolers.
My thinking exactly. Except 4 stubbers is just 8 points post CA2018. Super ideal for a transport.
Hope we'll get the Skorpius in preview this week. They can't just show us a transport and let us wait 3 months in the fog. I reckon it'll be around 95 pts but I hope it'll be less too.
I'm a bit late to the party, but with my new job I'm considering buying Hoplites because they're tempting gameplay wise, and very nice models. How do you guys use them, and what do you think of them ? When the transport hits I hope it'll allow to transport <Skitarii> units as well as <Forge-World> so they can ride in. We'll riot to Forge-World to add the keyword to the Secutarii datasheets if they don't.
Aaranis wrote: Hope we'll get the Skorpius in preview this week. They can't just show us a transport and let us wait 3 months in the fog. I reckon it'll be around 95 pts but I hope it'll be less too.
I'm a bit late to the party, but with my new job I'm considering buying Hoplites because they're tempting gameplay wise, and very nice models. How do you guys use them, and what do you think of them ? When the transport hits I hope it'll allow to transport <Skitarii> units as well as <Forge-World> so they can ride in. We'll riot to Forge-World to add the keyword to the Secutarii datasheets if they don't.
It depends entirely on your opponent, but when I use them its mainly for contesting midleboard, especially against melee centric armies. Have you seen Khorne berserker killing themselves? Because I did. For 10 pts per model they actually pose significant threat to strong and durable enemy units and It is a steal. Grotesques and Taloses, custodes bikes and so on. Move them midfield being careful to not add to enemy moment by allowing them for easy charge. If charge is inevitable(harlequins, blood angels orcs, geenestealers abberants and so on) its also good to hide them behind screen and line of sight for countercharge.
They will die, but you will probably easily gain in those exchanges.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
Aaranis wrote: Hope we'll get the Skorpius in preview this week. They can't just show us a transport and let us wait 3 months in the fog. I reckon it'll be around 95 pts but I hope it'll be less too.
I'm a bit late to the party, but with my new job I'm considering buying Hoplites because they're tempting gameplay wise, and very nice models. How do you guys use them, and what do you think of them ? When the transport hits I hope it'll allow to transport <Skitarii> units as well as <Forge-World> so they can ride in. We'll riot to Forge-World to add the keyword to the Secutarii datasheets if they don't.
Well, the preview already mentioned electro-priests riding in it, so the Skitarii keyword shouldn't be a factor at least.
Aaranis wrote: Hope we'll get the Skorpius in preview this week. They can't just show us a transport and let us wait 3 months in the fog. I reckon it'll be around 95 pts but I hope it'll be less too.
I'm a bit late to the party, but with my new job I'm considering buying Hoplites because they're tempting gameplay wise, and very nice models. How do you guys use them, and what do you think of them ? When the transport hits I hope it'll allow to transport <Skitarii> units as well as <Forge-World> so they can ride in. We'll riot to Forge-World to add the keyword to the Secutarii datasheets if they don't.
Well, the preview already mentioned electro-priests riding in it, so the Skitarii keyword shouldn't be a factor at least.
Hoplites and Peltasts don't have <Forge World>, which is why I personally wanted it to be Skitarii instead of <Forge World>.
I can't believe Hoplites and Peltasts didn't get that keyword. Also can't believe they aren't Troops. I mean, come on. Our regular Skitarii suck.
I am super torn right now though. I feel too light on infantry, with 3x3 Breachers and 3x5 Vanguard. But Skitarii suck, and I don't have any more Kataphron models. Sigh.
Suzuteo wrote: Too expensive for the purpose I have in mind.
Really, I guess I have just been spoiled by how great Guardsmen are.
Well, no troop will look good if you will compare it to guardsmen, that are not only best troop in the game but arguably best unit in the whole game. Srsl, they are OP right now with how much synergy and utility you can get from them. Skitarii aren't bad, they are actually good, but not guardsmen lvl good. Nothing is.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
Yeah Skitarii don't suck, Guardsmen are just OP. And this is the insidiousness of Soup, once you're used to a wide choice of the best of the range, going back to the limitations of mono codex is hard, because you feel like you're handicapping your list building.
Thanks for the advice on Hoplites. It gave me an idea for a Graia Brigade, I'll keep you updated when the list is written. Then I'll do some playtesting next month with some proxies and then decide if I'll make some purchases.
Suzuteo wrote: I can't believe Hoplites and Peltasts didn't get that keyword. Also can't believe they aren't Troops. I mean, come on. Our regular Skitarii suck.
I am super torn right now though. I feel too light on infantry, with 3x3 Breachers and 3x5 Vanguard. But Skitarii suck, and I don't have any more Kataphron models. Sigh.
Skitarii are solid, I don't really get the hate. Like seriously, it could have much, MUCH worse (just look at pretty much all Space Marine troops from most SM/CSM Codices, with very few exceptions).
7 points, 4+ saves that is easily turned into a 3+ during the first two turns, 3+ to hit, 30" max range for camping and objective sitting while still contributing to anti-infantry output, 15" rapid fire, S4 with a chance for AP-1. Sure, they aren't infantry squads, but infantry squads are simply underpriced and overpowered for their point cost (there is a reason that the majority consensus is that they should have gotten a point cost increase as soon as the AM Codex came out), so no surprise absolutely no troop choice can compete with them. So a fair comparison would be e.g. 5 pt cultists. Are all the benefits you get not worth the 2 extra points per model? 35 points for 5 models with a 3+ save against shooting is perfectly adequate for screening duties as well. And that's only looking at Rangers. Sure, you can't build an entire list around them and flood the table like you can with Boyz, Genestealer cultists or even Fire Warriors (45+ model T'au sept Fire Warrior bases even with just a Fireblade are nasty, I love 'em), but even taking 30-40 Skitarii really isn't a waste.
Sure, fire warriors for the same point have more potential, but you NEED to invest points into buffing them (Cadre Fireblades and markerlights, potentially an Ethereal and PAD drone). Skitarii don't, they get their easy access to 3+ saves, 3+ to hit and AP -1 chance on the house. All that's missing are better ways to mitigate morale, so hopefully we will get some more options to buff that down the line (hopefully this means an Alpha Primus HQ choice), though at least it's easy to justify data-tethers for Vanguard because of the added synergy with protector doctrina.
And Vanguards + Calivers are simply good, I think it's hard to dispute that, same as Rangers with Arquebuses.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2019/05/20 21:10:56
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 498
Lord of War - 498 1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber, Twin Icarus Autocannon, Warlord: Ion Bulwark (-1 CP), Relic: Headsman's Mark (-1 CP)
Total: 1998 points 13 CP (-3)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/20 22:42:14
I prefer Vanguard over Ranger.
But I suppose you are afraid of screening against things like GSC?
Problem is that you just have 3 Ironstriders now and having second turn against eldar flyers might get problematic.
Me too. They work better with the Breachers against things like Orks and MEQs. They also can advance and shoot.
I am afraid of running out of infantry in matchups where objective control is extremely important. But yeah, having more infantry to throw into the blender is important too. Gotta keep those Gallants at bay.
Exactly. Four Ironstriders can bring down one flyer a turn and is a must-kill that forces them to come closer; my Breachers, Dakkabots, and Knight can all move within 12" and shoot to kill them then. Three is not as scary.
On a side note, how are Guardsmen still at 4pts when Cultists are at 5pts? That's egregious and I agree with the sentiment that Guardsmen are far too strong.
I think if they were 5pts, like they should be, it would then be an interesting choice between the different infantry options in the Imperium, Skitarii being a major consideration.
I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:
-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times
-must be one batallion
-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.
So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:
Stygies trait
1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic
1 Enginseer
1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc
3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer
1 Datasmith
2x3 Dakka Kastelans
1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers
I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.
Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.
Morkphoiz wrote: I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:
-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times
-must be one batallion
-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.
So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:
Stygies trait
1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic
1 Enginseer
1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc
3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer
1 Datasmith
2x3 Dakka Kastelans
1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers
I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.
Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.
What do you guys think? Is that cheesy enough?
phew, those are some harsh restrictions.
I personally wouldnt attend an event that added so many restrictions. I'm guessing these restrictions are there because they want to avoid some sort of cheese that was there is the past.
Some armies cant realistically play a battallion without seriously nerfing themselves.
Just to show that the rules are dumb, i'd bring 2x6 destroyers in a ryza servitor maniple. Sprinkle some onagers in there and add some normal servitors to recycle your destroyers.
Morkphoiz wrote: I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:
-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times
-must be one batallion
-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.
So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:
Stygies trait
1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic
1 Enginseer
1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc
3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer
1 Datasmith
2x3 Dakka Kastelans
1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers
I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.
Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.
What do you guys think? Is that cheesy enough?
phew, those are some harsh restrictions.
I personally wouldnt attend an event that added so many restrictions. I'm guessing these restrictions are there because they want to avoid some sort of cheese that was there is the past.
Some armies cant realistically play a battallion without seriously nerfing themselves.
Just to show that the rules are dumb, i'd bring 2x6 destroyers in a ryza servitor maniple. Sprinkle some onagers in there and add some normal servitors to recycle your destroyers.
As long as those don't apply to every-single-goddamn-event organized there, restrictions aren't bad. They can shake up things a little bit, prevent dumb net listing and incentivize smart and innovative list building. So don't bash them, you may not like it, just don't play it and don't bash.
Mork, well, on what you will use your command points? I don't see many uses for those 8 cp, and admech is stratagem centric.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
As long as those don't apply to every-single-goddamn-event organized there, restrictions aren't bad. They can shake up things a little bit, prevent dumb net listing and incentivize smart and innovative list building. So don't bash them, you may not like it, just don't play it and don't bash.
Mork, well, on what you will use your command points? I don't see many uses for those 8 cp, and admech is stratagem centric.
yeah i went too negative on my post.
I know restrictions can be fun as a 1-of thing. Its just that from my experience, using restrictions in tournaments is ususally done to remove some of the netlisting/cheese but all it actually does is stifle some armies for no reason.
Not all armies are equal or have the same role.
Also, from the way the OP was, i read it as if it these restrictions were always present in their tourneys.
My suggestion still stands, kataphron are a great all-rounder unit
Morkphoiz wrote: I'm gonna attend a 1.5k Tourney in a bit. They've got some REALLY harsh restrictions like:
-you can only have one unit twice, everything else must be single squads instead of one Troop choice which you can take up to four times
-must be one batallion
-monstrous creatures and the likes can only be in squads of three max.
So I came up with this for inducing Maximum Rage:
Stygies trait
1 Dominus with necromechanic and lands relic
1 Enginseer
1x3 Breachers with Heavy Arc
3x3 Destroyers with Grav/Flamer
1 Datasmith
2x3 Dakka Kastelans
1 Onager with Neutron Laser and Stubbers
I intend to Castle up in the backfield, shield my Kastelans with the Kataphrons and discourage Close Combatants with the 9 Flamers I have at my disposal.
Then Dakka away at everything and repair incoming damage with my characters if possible.
Also Stygies and 2 rounds of Shroudpsalm (via Stratagem) should help.
What do you guys think? Is that cheesy enough?
you could go for:
a servitor maniple of
1x Dominus
1x Manipulus/Enginseer (manipulus grants 11" flamers on the kataphrons for overwatch purposes, and greater range for the plasma culverins)
1x Servitors
1x Infiltrators/Priests/Datasmith (10x infiltrators could thin out hoards with wrath of mars or just 50 shots...)
1x 6/9 plasma Kataphron Destroyers (possibly 6x for Aggripina and bring them back?)
1x Breachers x6 (or just take more units of Breachers instead of skitarii and have those with multiple troops)
up to 4x Skitarii (your multiple troops)
3x Dragoons (one squad)?
2x Onagers (one Neutron one Icarus - as this will give a good spread of ability without the need for CP) (this is also your 2x unit)
castle up, protect the destroyers & onagers with the breachers/skitarii.
servitor maniple for: +1 to hit occasionally on the destroyers, possibly a 5++ on them as well. and allowing your warlord to be the kill a servitor to bring the destroyer back.
take agrippina and 6x destroyers for lols as well - tide of servitors. (you could also give the relic eye for bonus vehicle kills) and double the number of overwatch shots.
10x infiltrators can drop on the backfield and take the objective/camping opponents. 3x dragoons is also a nice deterrant and they are cheap and easy to gain +2 to hit as well.
the onagers - you will probably need at least one onager with neutron to give you the ability to reliabilly kill vehicles without the use of command points. the icarus is there for flyers/infantry killing.
if you had points spare you could go for a unit of rangers with transuranics to cover the backfield and more breachers...
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/21 18:36:34
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 478
Lord of War - 478 1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer, 2x Heavy Stubber
Total: 1998 points 13 CP (-3)
Wulfey tested the Icarus Autocannon. Apparently, it drastically underperforms due to lack of Cawl rerolls and any plus hit stratagem. Took the opportunity to just add another unit of Skitarii. I would add the Stormspear, but I am not sure I have enough time to finish painting my new one.
Also, multiple people report that this sort of castle concept with Breachers only works if you make Cawl the Warlord. Also because snipers are apparently everywhere and will gun down an Enginseer really fast.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/21 23:12:15
Praise the Omnissiah
